New to Executor

[Odduck]

My father recently passed and what a mess of accounts he left. Like today, I finally found he mailed checks every month for his cell phone, but every little charity was on auto-pay through PayPal or a credit card. I need the cell phone for two-factor authentication to his accounts. I haven't found where he accessed the credit cards online yet. It's driving me crazy.

The last couple of years, he'd been switching every asset's beneficiary away from a trust to go directly to my mother, so that should be simple. The only catch is the bank says their safe deposit box was in his name only, which is odd because I thought I went with him several years ago so I'd have access to it as well as he AND my mother. In it, there are some coins. According to a lawyer, that may require us to do probate, unless I can find some evidence that those were a joint asset or prove their value is low enough in Iowa.

This is my worst nightmare - dealing with all these messes that I know nothing about. I don't even know the order of what companies I should be notifying of his death, etc. I only have copies of his will and some lawyer in another town has the originals. Why would they keep the originals?? I'm not dying to deal with that either. The way he went was rough and my motivation/moral is low. But I want this settled so we can start figuring out what my mother's care will look like.

Any specific advice or suggestions on where to find good information about handling an estate while trying to avoid probate?

 

[SecondCor521]

I'm sorry for your loss.

Everything will be sorted in time.

I'd first focus on dealing with the immediacy of funeral and burial arrangements, the immediate shock and grief and other feelings, and keeping your Mom taken care of as best you can.

Rather than try to access your father's accounts via his credentials, you should be able to do everything you need as executor. To become executor, you need to (a) get the original will from the attorney and (b) present it to the probate court where he lived. I suppose you will probably need to give the probate court a copy of the death certificate and there may be a form to fill out. The lawyer who has his original will can probably help you with this paperwork, probably at an hourly rate.

The court will appoint you as the executor and give you letters testamentary. These should allow you to deal with his debts, bills, assets, get access to the safety deposit box, etc.

Each state has a specified priority order of debts that should be paid. In my state, for example, it's burial costs first, federal income taxes, medical bills, state income taxes, then everything else. His state's priority order might differ.

Unless you know there is enough to pay for everything, just pay them in that order until the money runs out - anyone below that is out of luck. If anyone presses you, you can tell them to pound sand and wait their turn. If the executor pays out of order, they can be personally liable.

Once all the debts are gone and bills are paid, then you can distribute the rest per the will or beneficiary designations.

It's very typical for the original will to be kept by the attorney. As noted above, the original will needs to be provided to the probate court; copies may be fine for other uses.

Most states have simplified or small estate procedures for estates that are below a certain size. You can probably google this information for Iowa. In my state it is under $100K, and that only includes stuff that does not have a beneficiary listed. It may be a challenging and you have to evaluate your capabilities and the context, but you can possibly DIY things if your Dad's estate meets these requirements. If you have any doubts, you can hire an estate attorney to guide you and/or do the work.

HTH.

 

[Odduck]

HTH,

Thanks,

The cremation and all of that is done. He's 6 feet away with a flag resting on the urn - probably not proper flag handling. If we get other things settled, we might contact a cemetery in southern Iowa to see if we can get him next to his brother and their birth father.

There are no debts but there are significant assets to get moved to my mother that will pay for assisted living which she doesn't want but needs. My mother isn't capable of managing their finances and she won't touch any kind of computer. I have had power of attorney for both of them and my father expected me to take care of her when he was gone. I'm even listed on their bank account as a joint owner - something I want to change soon, but at this point, I'll let it ride until things get settled.

The whole point now is just roll over anything that was joint or listed her as beneficiary to her and settle a life insurance policy that was to offset the loss of his pension. That leaves only the stupid coins which I'd just as soon throw away.

I was referred to a lawyer who has suggested that if all of the assets are jointly held or have beneficiaries (almost all my mother, except a couple small annuities that are split between my sister and me) then probate is not needed. Maybe it's still required as the total assets are 100Ks, but I think the coins without a known beneficiary are likely only ~20K. Therefore I don't need to submit the will and a death certificate to start the probate process. I think then maybe I have to do some kind of partial year taxes.

If I do have to do probate, the process will take at least 6 more months and thousands in fees according to a probate attorney. I want to wrap that up ASAP so I can get on with showing her other places to live that provide care instead her now lonely condo. I want to do that before she gets any weaker and less able to engage and participate in her own living arrangements.

Sorry - not sure I'm making any sense at this point.

 

[SecondCor521]

You've got a lot on your mind.

When I'm overwhelmed, I make lists of everything that needs to get done. If I can, I prioritize it High / Medium / Low. You could also do it by dollar amount, or by category, or any other way that makes sense. Then every day I just look at the list and try to work on the most important stuff first.

The lawyer is probably right. In my state, anything that doesn't require probate - which would include joint accounts, life insurance, anything with a beneficiary, POD, TOD, 529s, and possibly trust assets - doesn't count towards the simplified probate limit.

So for example, a person who passes with a $3M IRA with beneficiaries, a joint bank account, three $50K 529s for their grandkids, and some coins in a safety deposit box could still do simplified probate, because only the coins would count, and presumably those are worth less than $100K (my state limit - Iowa may differ).

(I just checked, and Iowa's law is similar but the limit is $200K. See, for example, Probate Shortcuts in Iowa)

You probably know this already, but your POA for your Dad ended when he passed away. If you're his executor (sounds like it), then as mentioned before you can exercise power that way.

If you're POA for your Mom, it sounds like it might be time to offer to take over the bills, finances, etc. for her and help get her living situation squared away.

If you know there are enough assets, you can distribute most of them now and just hold back enough for taxes and any final medical bills and so forth. If any of the assets are beneficiaries or jointly held, you can get those transferred now without dealing with probate. Just provide a death certificate to the institution and follow their process. That may provide the funding to get your Mom into the living situation she needs.

If your parents were still married, then your Mom can generally file a MFJ tax return with your Dad for this year as though he had lived the entire year. The tax preparer should note his date of death on the tax return. If they were not married when he died then he would typically file Single. Income before date of death would go on his return; income after that point would go on the beneficiaries' returns. If there is taxable income received after death and before distribution to beneficiaries, then a 1041 fiduciary return may be required.

Generally speaking, capital assets such as stocks, bonds, mutual funds and things like houses, RVs, boats, and cars would receive a step up in basis to their value on his date of death, and would receive long term treatment when sold regardless of holding period.

I agree that it's better if you get removed from the account as an owner. You can get added as a POA (or AIF as it is sometimes listed) on the account instead which I think is more appropriate, especially if you're not the only beneficiary.

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

The lawyer is probably right. In my state, anything that doesn't require probate - which would include joint accounts, life insurance, anything with a beneficiary, POD, TOD, 529s, and possibly trust assets - doesn't count towards the simplified probate limit.

So for example, a person who passes with a $3M IRA with beneficiaries, a joint bank account, three $50K 529s for their grandkids, and some coins in a safety deposit box could still do simplified probate, because only the coins would count, and presumably those are worth less than $100K (my state limit - Iowa may differ).

Just read through the thread, and this is the essence of what I would have said. My parents (divorced) each had a small estate, with nothing to probate, because I was the beneficiary on all of their accounts where possible, and what was left was considered a "small estate" in their respective states. Getting everything transferred over to the beneficiary does require a little work, but even years ago some of the financial institutions accepted electronic scans of the documents. and it's certainly less fraught than distributing them as executor. Good luck.

 

[ERD50]

....

So for example, a person who passes with a $3M IRA with beneficiaries, a joint bank account, three $50K 529s for their grandkids, and some coins in a safety deposit box could still do simplified probate, because only the coins would count, and presumably those are worth less than $100K (my state limit - Iowa may differ).

(I just checked, and Iowa's law is similar but the limit is $200K. See, for example, Probate Shortcuts in Iowa)
.....

From that site:

In other words, if your estate qualifies as "small," your loved ones may be able to use simplified probate procedures, or even skip probate entirely.

I'll just emphasize that 'simplified' may very well mean "skip probate entirely." As mentioned things vary by State, but in IL, when I was executor for my FIL and assisted with MIL, everything was in the trust and a small checking account joint with my wife. I went to the County, and there was no form to fill out, nothing regarding probate.

I think the mechanics of this would be that, for any account in only the deceased's name and no stated beneficiary, the financial institution is not going to release it w/o some sort of probate process. I'm not sure how the limit ($100K in IL) fits into that? Would two separate accounts, each $60K be released tio the executor? I don't know. But if there is nothing to process, likely nothing needs ot be done at all regarding probate.

 

[harllee]

To be honest, if there are a lot of assets involved I would just hire a good lawyer experienced in probate and turn the whole thing over to the lawyer-- they will have a good paralegal who can track everything down. This falls into the life to too short category.

 

[MarieIG]

Your state may have a procedure for small estates which allow them to bypass probate. You can check with the local surrogate's court although you might need to know precisely what is in the safety deposit box.

 

[Trailwalker]

Sorry for your loss. My dad from Iowa also died this year. When my mom passes, I plan to hire people to help sort things out. For now my mom is managing and has turned down our offer to simplify the accounts. And yes, we have the same danged coins in the safety deposit box (and other places) issue without paperwork to establish basis or ownership.

 

[pacergal]

My sympathies on the loss of your father.
There are many good suggestions here.

 

[SecondCor521]

I'll just emphasize that 'simplified' may very well mean "skip probate entirely." As mentioned things vary by State, but in IL, when I was executor for my FIL and assisted with MIL, everything was in the trust and a small checking account joint with my wife. I went to the County, and there was no form to fill out, nothing regarding probate.

Right, that is one of the points I was trying to make.

I think the mechanics of this would be that, for any account in only the deceased's name and no stated beneficiary, the financial institution is not going to release it w/o some sort of probate process. I'm not sure how the limit ($100K in IL) fits into that? Would two separate accounts, each $60K be released tio the executor? I don't know. But if there is nothing to process, likely nothing needs ot be done at all regarding probate.

You're right. There is a process, but you can still avoid opening probate.

In my state (ID), if the value of stuff that would require probate is under the limit ($100K in ID), then there is an affidavit process. All you do is fill out an affidavit and give it to the financial institution and they release the funds without probate. The affidavit basically says "I swear on my honor that this person has passed away, that their estate is under the limit, it has been 30 days since they passed away, and we're the rightful beneficiaries." State law permits/requires the financial institution to rely on a properly completed affidavit and release the funds.

In your example of two separate $60K accounts, it would be illegal in my state to submit an affidavit because the total of $120K exceeds the $100K limit. And you'd be lying on the affidavit, which might be a crime; I don't know but I wouldn't try it. Could it work anyway if they were at different institutions and everyone in the family was OK with it? Maybe, but I wouldn't try it.

I think most financial institution accounts which hold $60K have some sort of beneficiary or TOD method, but it does vary by state.

 

[rk911]

When my BIL passed in 2021 my wife was named successor trustee. He had two bank vault boxes with just his name on them. Tom was an 'Oscar' when it came to organization so we had no idea what might be in the box but we were looking for the title to the car. We went to tge bank, presented the relevanr pages of the trust and my wife's ID. Two days later she was granted access to the box by the bank.

OP...when you get ready to deal with the bank box take the will and see if the bank will accept that and grant you access. If they do then clean it out and be done with it. If not and you have to go thru probate then just resign yourself to that.

Good luck.

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

When my BIL passed in 2021 my wife was named successor trustee. He had two bank vault boxes with just his name on them. Tom was an 'Oscar' when it came to organization so we had no idea what might be in the box but we were looking for the title to the car. We went to tge bank, presented the relevanr pages of the trust and my wife's ID. Two days later she was granted access to the box by the bank.

OP...when you get ready to deal with the bank box take the will and see if the bank will accept that and grant you access. If they do then clean it out and be done with it. If not and you have to go thru probate then just resign yourself to that.

Good luck.

I don't mean to be pedantic, but I know from experience that it's especially easy to forget things when you're grieving -- make sure you have the will and a copy of the death certificate.

 

[rk911]

I don't mean to be pedantic, but I know from experience that it's especially easy to forget things when you're grieving -- make sure you have the will and a copy of the death certificate.

No worries...I should have caught that on the proof read. Thanks!

 

[Sojourner]

In my experience (having gone through this recently when my DF passed away), trying to do certain things without going through probate and getting the official letters testamentary (LT) could be very frustrating. For example, the bank where my dad's safe deposit box was held was adamant about seeing the LT before they would allow me to close that account. Luckily, my dad had added both me and my siblings to the list of people allowed to access the box, but the bank would not close the box account without the LT. I encountered this same insistence on the LT when calling about getting some decades-old paper stock certificates in DF's name transferred to myself and my siblings. And probate/LT was also needed when dealing with car titles, inherited IRAs, and numerous other things.

OP, I would suggest picking up a copy of this very helpful book: The Executors Guide to Settling a Loved One's Estate or Trust

 

[ERD50]

.... In your example of two separate $60K accounts, it would be illegal in my state to submit an affidavit because the total of $120K exceeds the $100K limit. And you'd be lying on the affidavit, which might be a crime; I don't know but I wouldn't try it. Could it work anyway if they were at different institutions and everyone in the family was OK with it? Maybe, but I wouldn't try it. ....

Absolutely. And just in case anyone took that the wrong way, I'm not suggesting anyone try that - let me be even clearer - it would be illegal, don't do that!

It just had me wondering how the mechanics of probate is done. And since we didn't have anything at all that was subject to probate, I didn't see that process.

On second thought, if the account wasn't handled under trust, joint, TOD, etc, I think the financial institution will still (or is supposed to) ask for some probate documents regardless of $ amount. That is where maybe the 'simple' method applies, and the executor states to the County/State that the total probate-able assets are under $100K (for IL), and all the financial place needs is a simple 'small estate' document? That maybe keeps you out of needing to open a more formal process. And any financial institution with a 100K or greater account would definitely be looking for that more formal process?

 

[SecondCor521]

Absolutely. And just in case anyone took that the wrong way, I'm not suggesting anyone try that - let me be even clearer - it would be illegal, don't do that!

Right, understood, and I would vouch for your character. ;-)

It just had me wondering how the mechanics of probate is done. And since we didn't have anything at all that was subject to probate, I didn't see that process.

On second thought, if the account wasn't handled under trust, joint, TOD, etc, I think the financial institution will still (or is supposed to) ask for some probate documents regardless of $ amount. That is where maybe the 'simple' method applies, and the executor states to the County/State that the total probate-able assets are under $100K (for IL), and all the financial place needs is a simple 'small estate' document? That maybe keeps you out of needing to open a more formal process. And any financial institution with a 100K or greater account would definitely be looking for that more formal process?

In my state, the small estate affidavit and the death certificate are all the financial institution needs, and there is no need to involve the probate court. State law releases the financial institution from liability for releasing funds if the affidavit conforms to the requirements.

If an account had over the state limit and someone presented an affidavit saying the estate was under the limit, I would hope the person at the financial institution would not accept the affidavit because it is inaccurate on its face!

In some states the "simple" method is still probate and involves the court, but the requirements are fewer and so the process is easier, faster, and cheaper than "full" probate. I suspect a "simple" probate could be completed by a DIYer with some help. "Full" probate I would only do by hiring an attorney.

Each state differs, of course, but I think many do have a layered system. The state has an interest in not clogging up probate court with estates that are small or simple. Big, complicated estates can go through the whole enchilada.

But again, it sometimes can be possible to use the simple approach and/or affidavits even with big complicated estates if the big complicated assets are all POD, TOD, beneficiary, etc. and only a few small assets would have to go through probate.

 

[tulak]

When I was executor for my mom’s estate, I did a lot of work, but there are two things I didn’t do.

The first was deal with the legal aspects of the estate. Mom had a good lawyer that handled all the court filings and provided me with letters testamentary, death certificates, basically anything I would need when I went to the bank to open the safety deposit, close accounts, etc. As executor, I opened an estate account and worked on getting all assets not defined as TOD transferred there. I had to sell a condo, cars, etc, stuff that has to go through probate. I know there’s a lot of probate avoidance advice, but personally, I don’t get it. Probate wasn’t a big deal.

For the lawyer, I probably spent around 5k. This would have been split three ways, so each of us paid under 2k from the estate. The estate was small and this was money well spent.

The second part that I struggled with was the tax filing. I had everything done, but couldn’t figure out how to provide K-1 forms to the estate beneficiaries. I ended up hiring a CPA, who originally wanted to charge me way too much. I was able to negotiate a friend of family discount, but it was still ~$400 for minimal work, since I had all the tax forms done. I still consider this money well spent, since I didn’t want to get this wrong, especially since I wasn’t the only estate beneficiary.

Anyways, that’s a lot of detail to get to my advice: spend money to make your job as executor easier.

My deepest condolences for your loss.

 

[yclipse]

> If you're his executor (sounds like it), then as mentioned before you can exercise power that way.

Only if an estate is opened and if the court names him as executor. He has no authority to do anything until that happens.

 

[UpQuark]

I don't even know the order of what companies I should be notifying of his death, etc

When my mom was dying she told me the first place to contact was Social Security. She was really emphatic about it. I remember her being very grumpy with Social Security after my father died, so maybe they kept depositing my father's SS benefits into the joint bank account and she had to give money back.

 

[samcat]

No advice. Just I'm sorry you have a mess. My husband has been trustee of three trusts and each was easy to deal with.

I think lawyers keep originals of the documents so that you have to go to them and they can do the probate.

 

[rayvt]

o maybe they kept depositing my father's SS benefits into the joint bank account and she had to give money back.

Have gone through this twice. There is no "she had to give the money back".
As soon as SS finds out about the death, they take the money right back out of the bank account. Neither she nor the bank had any say in the matter. If that causes a net negative balance in the account, that is your problem not theirs.

 

[frances]

Sorry for your loss OP.

Unfortunately many states have set things now where probate cannot be avoided no matter what. Where I live (Fulton County, GA) the rules are that ANYONE who dies in the county MUST go through probate, will or not, property or not.

My mom had set things up thinking I wouldn't have to probate her estate but unfortunately I did, and yes, it took about 10 months for mom's will to work it's way through the court.

I was the only heir receiving anything and siblings did not contest the will, and there was only one piece of property involved, so it was very straight forward.

The case was actually closed in 10 months, but the clerk of the probate court didn't bother to notify the lawyer I hired for an additional FIVE months, and because of the temperament of the court the lawyer was very cautious not to push them too hard with questions - he told me they were not forthcoming over the phone with status and it's over an hour to actually drive to the courthouse from where we are located.

So all-in-all you could say it took 15 months (January 2023 until March 2024) for probate for me. UGH.

Best of luck to you.