Opinions re College Undergrad

[G-Money]

I would never call a degree useless. Not for want, or just personal enrichment, or for a future economic opportunity. Too much focus on the latter, but it is an important consideration. I'd be willing to guess that with the OP's daughter attending a small prestigious liberal arts university that money is a secondary consideration here. Or if it's primary, they believe in the opportunity that having a degree from a prestigious school can afford.

Having a degree generally equates to higher lifetime earnings. The data is widely available and has been studied again and again and it shows that any degree generally sets those who hold one apart in terms of better opportunity and pay compared to those who don't have one. But this isn't an argument for or against college, it's the argument that some degrees are worthless.

Horsefeathers.

I don't know a single person with whom I attended university who didn't land a successful career doing something related to their degree, or not. And there were a lot of degrees some folks would consider "worthless" in these discussions. The path they took led them to their current success and all of them would tell you it started in school.

On the cost/benefit discussion, don't we think the OP probably considered that?

 

[Montecfo]

I would never call a degree useless. Not for want, or just personal enrichment, or for a future economic opportunity. Too much focus on the latter, but it is an important consideration. I'd be willing to guess that with the OP's daughter attending a small prestigious liberal arts university that money is a secondary consideration here. Or if it's primary, they believe in the opportunity that having a degree from a prestigious school can afford.

You may argue any degree has some value. But they vary widely in cost and in earning prospects which is the relevant point

Having a degree generally equates to higher lifetime earnings. The data is widely available and has been studied again and again and it shows that any degree generally sets those who hold one apart in terms of better opportunity and pay compared to those who don't have one. But this isn't an argument for or against college, it's the argument that some degrees are worthless.

Horsefeathers.

I don't know a single person with whom I attended university who didn't land a successful career doing something related to their degree, or not. And there were a lot of degrees some folks would consider "worthless" in these discussions. The path they took led them to their current success and all of them would tell you it started in school.

Well, you may not know many people in that situation, but times have changed. The cost and indeed the value of education have changed. And the fact is millions earned degrees that are uneconomic versus the costs.

A quarter of a billion dollars of federal student loans are in default. You may not know these folks but they are out there just the same.

On the cost/benefit discussion, don't we think the OP probably considered that?

Hard to say but assume away.

 

[CO-guy]

I think guiding your kids at college age is a really really good idea. Especially if you are paying the bills or cosigning loans. Letting them make all the decisions is how young folks spend thousands in debt and end up with a useless degree or even no degree.

Conversely I think the question of Psych 100 vs 200 in some ways misses the point being this: Is Psychology a wise major in the current or expected economic environment?

Unless the far off goal is a professorship I am more than a bit skeptical of the value, again just being quite honest.

Coincidentally, I'm more than a bit skeptical of the opinions of someone that thinks the only value in an undergraduate degree in psychology is to become a professor.

https://www.apa.org/education-career/guide/careers

 

[CO-guy]

You may argue any degree has some value. But they vary widely in cost and in earning prospects which is the relevant point


Well, you may not know many people in that situation, but times have changed. The cost and indeed the value of education have changed. And the fact is millions earned degrees that are uneconomic versus the costs.

A quarter of a billion dollars of federal student loans are in default. You may not know these folks but they are out there just the same.




Hard to say but assume away.

The economic viability of a college major and student loan debt are two totally separate things. Quite the assumption to believe otherwise.

Thankfully, the Bureau of Labor Statistics publishes actual data on the subject, so no assumptions needed. The actual data shows that psychology is a growing field based on an increasing number of job opportunities for graduates.

Field of degree

www.bls.gov

 

[Montecfo]

I am not surprised the APA thinks Psychology is a great field. And of course psychology majors may become offended. That was not the intention.

One can quibble of course but fact is if you want to practice psychology or teach you are looking at a doctorate. The undergrad alone does not uniquely qualify one for a psychology career. And entry jobs in HR or similar carry modest salaries. You do not need a psychology degree for that career path.

ETA: The BLS data shows psych majors have materially lower wages than "all other majors" , and a higher percentage of part timers despite a higher percentage graduate degrees. Sonon average these folks are spending more time in school for lower wages and lower hours working.

But I think the thread has become needlessly emotional. No reason people can't simply state their views, hopefully fact-based, while also being civil.

 

[G-Money]

I don't think anyone is becoming emotional or offended. It is bizarre how some people go out of their way to disparage the worth of certain degrees and enter into these discussions like nobody ever considered a cost/benefit.

Of course the APA thinks psychology is a great field. There's serious money to be made there, why wouldn't it be?

Too often I think people think entry jobs with "modest" salaries are a life sentence. This isn't like truck driving or plumbing work where a single skill dictates a going market rate and that's career start to end.

The trajectory of a business major with an HR focus might look like a path involving the following positions.

HR project coordinator/assistant (entry, maybe hourly, with some benefits)
HR generalist, contracts (entry-ish, but with room to grow, with some benefits)
Employee relations analyst. Mid-level
Employee relations manager. Mid-level
Sr. Employee relations manager, strategy and planning. Mid-level
HR Principal, strategy and planning. Manager/Director
Director of Human Resources, People and culture. Manager/Director
Divisional VP Human Resources, People and culture. Senior Manager/Director
Senior Vice President of Human Resources. Executive/company officer

This might start $45-$60k for someone fresh out of college and ending with executive compensation with a $350k base plus incentives. How is a general business or HR generalist degree worthless again?

 

[PlayinwithFIRE]

"OK ONE MORE for anyone - EXCEL --stuff like VLOOK, XLOOK, Pivots. I've heard---that knowing this stuff would help her during internships"

I used the inbuilt VBA functionality and commands like VLOOK to sort large datasets in excel for much of my career but in the last 10 years or so, most of this knowledge got replaced by statistical packages like JMP which offered one-click answers as well as the ability to handle much larger datasets (which was needed in semiconductor world) .


pwf

 

[Aerides]

A vast majority of jobs that a 22 year old applies for, even ones that can lead to great careers, just want to check the box - Bachelors Y/N? - and that puts your resume in one pile or the other.

Specialized fields, law, etc, sure, then "where" is more important. And yes some fields, medical, education, a bachelors is not going to get you very far, but you might then be able to start work in your field while you complete higher ed.

But for everything where it isn't, advancement is won by performance in the job, and of course, who you know, etc. Once you're 10 years in at a good company, nobody cares where you went to school.

 

[CO-guy]

I am not surprised the APA thinks Psychology is a great field. And of course psychology majors may become offended. That was not the intention.

One can quibble of course but fact is if you want to practice psychology or teach you are looking at a doctorate. The undergrad alone does not uniquely qualify one for a psychology career. And entry jobs in HR or similar carry modest salaries. You do not need a psychology degree for that career path.

ETA: The BLS data shows psych majors have materially lower wages than "all other majors" , and a higher percentage of part timers despite a higher percentage graduate degrees. Sonon average these folks are spending more time in school for lower wages and lower hours working.

But I think the thread has become needlessly emotional. No reason people can't simply state their views, hopefully fact-based, while also being civil.

This continued, now-revised assertion that in psychology it's a PhD or nothing is simply not supported by facts. Three out of four people working in psychology related fields with an advanced degree in psychology have a Master's, with only one in four holding a PhD. There are plenty of psychology careers out there beyond HR. So better to stick with facts rather than repeating outdated assumptions.

https://www.apa.org/workforce/publications/13-demographics

However, this post raises an important consideration for the OP. Rather than pointing out the pivot from "no jobs" to "the jobs are lower paying," I think it's worth mentioning research about why that might be. Careers where women are overrepresented in the workforce reveal a gender related income disparity when it comes to the financial impacts of starting a family. Economic research suggests that, in the United States, a woman's career earning potential is delayed by as much as 3-5 years per child. Something to consider when looking at incomes, particularly early career incomes, for various fields.

Anyway, congrats again to the OP. I think his daughter has made a wise choice to attend a small liberal arts school for all of the reasons they articulated. This type of learning environment provides the best opportunities for one-on-one mentorship, independent research and internships with her professors. Combined with a well-rounded liberal arts education, she should be well prepared for whatever future career she pursues.

 

[Sunset]

I'll never forget the conversation with my math faculty advisor when I changed majors to math. He was very explicit, "There is no job called mathematician." and he was right. As an ROTC cadet I didn't mind at all because the Army didn't care either.

Then when I was in graduate school (for mathematics) one of the better professors I had made a very insightful comment, "You know, the world doesn't need very many mathematicians. Four or five good ones would be enough."

So funny,,,,

When I graduated, I came across one of my professors that had taught in a few of my classes and told her how I have graduated with a Psychology degree...... With a very disappointed look and tone, she said "Why did you do that".

Later I got a real degree so I could earn good money.

 

[G-Money]

"OK ONE MORE for anyone - EXCEL --stuff like VLOOK, XLOOK, Pivots. I've heard---that knowing this stuff would help her during internships"

I used the inbuilt VBA functionality and commands like VLOOK to sort large datasets in excel for much of my career but in the last 10 years or so, most of this knowledge got replaced by statistical packages like JMP which offered one-click answers as well as the ability to handle much larger datasets (which was needed in semiconductor world) .


pwf

I like this.

However, in most general/nonspecific positions, simply having a little more Excel and general applications knowledge than a peer is a leg up (and also a liability - everyone will think you're the 'go-to' for help with their work in Excel).

The ability to use and analyze data to answer business questions is always an asset. But that is also a whole career, set of specific skills. General knowledge is still worth its weight in gold.

More and more, AI is helping people manipulate and analyze basic data sets. Using AI is a skill in itself.

As an undergrad, it's all about exposure. Chances are, general coursework will accomplish this. There will also be room in both general req's and the degree program for elective courses to augment specific knowledge and skills.

 

[planuntilthefisthits]

OP, I write this as someone whose spouse was a fully tenured professor of psychology at a state Flagship university. I also write it as someone who has a Ph.D./MBA combo.

Your daughter sounds like she is a bright and motivated young woman. She has made the decision to go to a very small liberal arts college in which she will have a close to zero opportunity to participate in research and work with a faculty member who has the ability to pipeline her to good graduate school. Whether she really wants to go to graduate school and in what discipline, we be evident over time.

In any practice field, the most flexibility and most income is when you have a terminal degree that allows for licensure and independent work. There is a pecking order in health care: MD>PA; MD>APRN; Ph.D.>PsyD > LCSW, LC, etc.

I appreciate your results-driven mindset. If your daughter truly shares that trait, it is not too late to map out what she needs to do to achieve her goals.

A word of advice from one of my graduate school professors: Become an expert in two fields--everyone else is an expert in only one.

Good luck to her and to you!

 

[MC Rider]

Don't know the check the degree box is as strong as it used to be.
If you're smart and good at the job you may get by without.
Forget the source but it said most people don't work at what they majored in for college.
True for me. I have a BS in Business Admin. The only business I ever administered was me as a 1 man band RE appraiser.

I can joke about the BS part, but in University you learn how to think for yourself and form your own opinions. That, is how you become dangerous. And learn to spot the BS coming atcha from every which way.

 

[shafer9]

Do not have her take that 200 level course in her first semester, or year for that matter. I did that after AP'ing English, but it was a mistake to put that extra advanced work on me while I was also adjusting to the school, to college as a whole.

Don't worry about minors until she's had some time to acclimate. Let her get there, take a reasonable first semester, and then adjust as needed.

And I'd say let her pick her classes, then discuss. Not your pick and present to her.

Good advice. The best thing I got out of college was enough time to kind of figure out who I was and what I liked. The rest of it, who remembers?

 

[Navigator]

I was a university professor for thirty years and have advised countless students. If your daughter is like most students, she doesn’t have enough exposure to different fields yet to know what she wants to major in. This is why most students change majors, often multiple times. The core curriculum (usually the first two years) should help her decide what she likes and doesn’t. This should be a time for exploration. There should be career guidance services at her university to help her look at career paths, once she narrows her interests.

A good university will help students find internships and other opportunities to assist students getting started in their careers. Another important aspect of a university education is the connections made with other smart, ambitious and conscientious students. The best thing for your daughter right now is to explore options so she can decide what path she wants her life to take.

A final thought - it wastes everybody’s time and your money for her to tank a placement test in hopes of raising her GPA

 

[eyenitnoy]

One of the best things I ever did in college was get a classical education.

The future is unpredictable.

Learning to think, reason, and understand is far more important that any particular skill or trade you might learn, which may end up being replaced by a machine anyway. (Like accounting.)

Read great books.
Study great minds, from across the ages.
Learn to think, write, and reason.

These last a lifetime.

And don't rush into choosing a major. Let the major find you.

 

[foxfirev5]

One of the best things I ever did in college was get a classical education.

The future is unpredictable.

Learning to think, reason, and understand is far more important that any particular skill or trade you might learn, which may end up being replaced by a machine anyway. (Like accounting.)

Read great books.
Study great minds, from across the ages.
Learn to think, write, and reason.

These last a lifetime.

And don't rush into choosing a major. Let the major find you.

Exactly. One must determine the objective first. Personally I plodded through my first two years of engineering school only to discover I hated it. College for a specific career is fine. However it's not the only road.

Much to the dismay of my family I transferred to a small liberal arts college and immersed myself in the critical thinking discussions. Naturally I didn't have job offers when I graduated and took a job with a small family owned business. After a couple of years of doing everything possible I flew to Chicago for a job interview with a major corporation. I thought my weak BA degree would hold me back but I was able to weave the connection between my education and work history. By presenting myself as a well rounded individual I got the job. 36 years later I retired early at 59 yo.

Of course luck played a significant role, but a highly diverse background and education helped.

 

[iloveyoga]

Non college grad here...although I received a lot of training and education in my financial services job. My son, who owns a very successful HVAC business that he started from scratch, also a non college grad. I am thrilled that two of my granddaughters are attending college, one of them is in law school. Makes this grandma so happy. I believe that almost all education is beneficial and a college degree shows dedication and effort at the very least. I worked with and hired many college grads with different types of degrees and we found that a mix of employees was very helpful. Everyone brought a different viewpoint.

 

[djhep6]

To answer your last question: YES on Excel. If she goes the Industrial-Organizational or HR route, data analytics is huge right now. Knowing XLOOKUP and Pivot Tables before her junior year will make her stand out like crazy for internships

 

[G-Money]

Non college grad here...although I received a lot of training and education in my financial services job. My son, who owns a very successful HVAC business that he started from scratch, also a non college grad. I am thrilled that two of my granddaughters are attending college, one of them is in law school. Makes this grandma so happy. I believe that almost all education is beneficial and a college degree shows dedication and effort at the very least. I worked with and hired many college grads with different types of degrees and we found that a mix of employees was very helpful. Everyone brought a different viewpoint.

Diversity in thought, skill, experience are what make great teams of employees.

This also bring up the point that college/no college doesn't have to be such a defining line. Some college is also very helpful. People with college educations can go into trades. People with trade skills can also seek more education. Too often we treat the decision as a forever choice: white or blue collar, education or trades, when more of everything is perhaps the most beneficial.

The future is uncertain and the more skills that one has at their disposal whether it be for choosing a different career for interests/passion, or needing to pivot for financial reasons, the better.

 

[wmackey]

Just a couple of thoughts based on my experiences

1. We required a degree. For the most part we didn't care what degree. We also likely didn't care what school. The exceptions were for engineers. Even then, it just needed to an engineering degree from an accredited school.

2. No one cares about a year of any language someone took in college. Unless the job is dealing with people in that language, and then we would look for Fluency.

3. After the first job out of college, no one cares about a GPA or an SAT score. Even for the first job, we would look at co-op experience, summer jobs or any other real-world experience.