Pete Rose

[Qs Laptop]

Does it at all seem ironic that MLB has embraced sports betting now?

FanDuel, DraftKings, et. al. have signed deals with MLB that include licensing, branding and access to league data, all in the name of money, it seems. Given that these are online methods to bet which can be proxied it is very simple for any player, manager or employee to bet anonymously without fear of being caught.

If you are a player, manager, employee of any MLB team the fear of getting caught is immediate termination of employment. Employees of MLB teams are not even allowed to play fantasy baseball. This is powerful motivation for not gambling. The minimum salary for MLB players is $760,000. Why would someone jeopardize that gig by placing a wager on a game?

 

[Kings over Queens]

Like a few others in this thread, I am in the minority in that Pete Rose should not be in the Hall of Fame. I'm not a fan of this decision by Manfred.

You can pile on all the relativism about drug use and everything else and it all falls on deaf ears. Simply not close to the same thing, and for one very salient point...Rule 21. It's posted in every clubhouse in both english and spanish.

 

[Cassius King]

Are pain killers illegal in baseball? Don't think so.



Do you think MLB knew Doc Ellis was on LSD when he pitched a no-hitter? What would be the rationale for reversing his no hitter from the record books? Dwight Gooden tested positive for cocaine use and went into rehab to avoid suspension. Darryl Strawberry was suspended a couple of times for drug use.



Spit balls were outlawed in the 1910's(?). Juiced bats (I presume you mean corked bats) have never been legal. Pine tar on catcher's gear is legal.

What is your point?

My point is exactly as you stated. MLB has picked an chosen what illegal things to act upon.
How are pain killers and PED's different? Both allow a player to play through or avoid injury.

Spit balls were outlawed in 1910, yet Gaylord Perry had a 22 year career with an outlawed pitch. How did MLB allow that to happen when it was illegal since 1910?!

Why is pine tar on a catchers gear legal, what could the possible benefits of that be?

 

[Qs Laptop]

My point is exactly as you stated. MLB has picked an chosen what illegal things to act upon.
How are pain killers and PED's different? Both allow a player to play through or avoid injury.

PEDs are explicitly banned by baseball because they alter the physical attributes of the human body. Painkillers merely reduce the amount of pain a player is enduring. Should cortisone shots be outlawed? Ice baths? C'mon, let's be real here.

Spit balls were outlawed in 1910, yet Gaylord Perry had a 22 year career with an outlawed pitch. How did MLB allow that to happen when it was illegal since 1910?!

Gaylord Perry was very good at hiding his doctoring of the baseball. He used to brag about it. It is very difficult to catch a pitcher doctoring a baseball when they do it in a random fashion. Of course, now there are between inning checks on pitchers hands to make sure they don't have any foreign substance on them.

BTW, Gaylord Perry was suspended for throwing a spitball.

Why is pine tar on a catchers gear legal, what could the possible benefits of that be?

It allows them to get a better grip on the baseball, which is useful in cold and/or rainy weather . Catcher's may not put pine tar directly on their hands, however. They can only "grab" some tack on their fingers from their chest protector, for example. This is similar to when a batter taps his batting glove on the caked on pine tar on the upper portion of their bat handle.

 

[Kings over Queens]

My point is exactly as you stated. MLB has picked an chosen what illegal things to act upon.
How are pain killers and PED's different? Both allow a player to play through or avoid injury.

Spit balls were outlawed in 1910, yet Gaylord Perry had a 22 year career with an outlawed pitch. How did MLB allow that to happen when it was illegal since 1910?!

Why is pine tar on a catchers gear legal, what could the possible benefits of that be?

Are any of these things that you mention specifically stated in the rules as triggering a lifetime ban?

You say that MLB has picked and chosen on what illegal things to act upon, and it seems to me that they are following their own rules, which now includes it seems reinstatement of lifetime banned players upon their death.

 

[Qs Laptop]

Are any of these things that you mention specifically stated in the rules as triggering a lifetime ban?

Precisely. It seems that Cassius King would have players banned for anything that is deemed illegal--by either the state or the MLB rules.

You say that MLB has picked and chosen on what illegal things to act upon, and it seems to me that they are following their own rules, which now includes it seems reinstatement of lifetime banned players upon their death.

I'm kind of ambivalent to this new development. It does open the door to Pete Rose getting into the HOF, but there is no way he can benefit from or enjoy the honor. It may be possible his family might be able to profit from it, but it can't be much.

I agree with you that the gambling rule is so ingrained into the life and rules of MLB players that violating it is an act of pure audacity.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

OK, here are my three cents

1. Pete Rose was absolutely deserving as a player for being in the Hall of Fame. First ballot.

2. Gambling on baseball is wrong if you're involved in the game as a player or manager or batboy.

3. The Hall of Fame is getting so watered down it doesn't mean as much as it used to.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

He was a player RIP. Wonder if Mark McGuire or Sammy Sosa will get the nod past their time. The politics of sports competes with government for convolution.

 

[Route246]

PEDs are explicitly banned by baseball because they alter the physical attributes of the human body. Painkillers merely reduce the amount of pain a player is enduring. Should cortisone shots be outlawed? Ice baths? C'mon, let's be real here.

Actually, PEDs by themselves do not alter any physical attributes of the human body that significantly improve performance. They work in tandem with exercise, ingesting certain foods, etc. by allowing for recovery after workout and by altering blood chemistry in ways that change fat content, etc. and by allowing muscle tissue to build up stronger after recovery.

If you give PEDs to a sedentary couch potato or other non-active person it is not going to turn them into a home run hitter. It takes a lot of work and a lot of nutritional input coupled to the PEDs to make them effective.

Painkillers do something similar in that they allow an athlete to workout more vigorously than otherwise possible.

 

[mistermike40]

And the Astros should have their title revoked for cheating.

Not only did MLB not take the title away, they prohibited any retaliatory actions taken by teams themselves. MLB is corrupt and biased.

I totally agree and - as a Tigers fan - I wish they had never hired Hinch.

 

[rk911]

Yep. If it was to happen, it should have been when he was with us and could have experienced what’s to come - hall of fame.

As with Ron Santo....HOF 2012, 2-yrs after his death. I had pleasure and honor to speak with and sit next to Ron, albeit briefly, at a spring training game in Mesa one year. At this point he was a double-amputee but that didn't seem to slow him down. A true gentleman.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

I'm an old school baseballl guy. I started losing interest big time during the strike of 93 or 94 when there was no world series. I said MLB kiss my behind. Players and owners.

Thaid said. The whole Hall of Fame is so watered down now I wouldn't care if I was in there or not if I was one of the many players thay have snubbed. They should start their own.

Theye could put together a team of players who have been denied entry for various reasons, and challenge them HOF voters to any team anyone could put together from members in the Hall of Fame and would I bet on them to win (Pete wouldn't have to, he'd beat them on his own just like when he was playing.) I'd want him on my team because he was a winner who knew the game and what it took to win.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

I'm an old school baseballl guy. I started losing interest big time during the strike of 93 or 94 when there was no world series. I said MLB kiss my behind. Players and owners.

Thaid said. The whole Hall of Fame is so watered down now I wouldn't care if I was in there or not if I was one of the many players thay have snubbed. They should start their own.

Theye could put together a team of players who have been denied entry for various reasons, and challenge them HOF voters to any team anyone could put together from members in the Hall of Fame and would I bet on them to win (Pete wouldn't have to, he'd beat them on his own just like when he was playing.) I'd want him on my team because he was a winner who knew the game and what it took to win.

I was a fan up to that time as well. As I recall, our Ohio teams were in first place for their respective leagues; then the season got cancelled. I lost 90% of my interest in MLB as a result.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

I was a fan up to that time as well. As I recall, our Ohio teams were in first place for their respective leagues; then the season got cancelled. I lost 90% of my interest in MLB as a result.

Me too. And I just can't get myself back interested to the game I loved. I hung onto 10% for a few years but now its less. You had two Ohio teams to pull for the Reds and Indians. I was a Twins fan. American League. I listened to a Twins game every night after working on the farm on an old AM radio, it felt like the players were my friends. When the world series came around in the 70's it was better than Christmas to see my heros playing on TV in the world series. I never knew what they looked like since I had only heard them on the radio. I thoght Joe Morgan was taller. He sure hit like he was.

I saw all of the Big Red Machine teams win the world series, after the Oakland dynasty and before the Yankees. 1970's baseball was my favorite. And I am a Twins fan who had to wait til 1987 to see a World Series champion.

I'm glad I was there.

Back to Pete Rose. He is the most deserving player since Ty Cobb.

Those with no sin throw the first stone. There are plenty of us who have done worse. Myself included. Including many in the Hall of Fame.

 

[Qs Laptop]

Theye could put together a team of players who have been denied entry for various reasons, and challenge them HOF voters to any team anyone could put together from members in the Hall of Fame and would I bet on them to win (Pete wouldn't have to, he'd beat them on his own just like when he was playing.) I'd want him on my team because he was a winner who knew the game and what it took to win.

I'll take you up on that. You put together a team of ballplayers that have been denied entrance into the HOF and I'll put together my team consisting of HOF players.

BTW, Pete was a very good player, with a couple of superstar years. But let's face it, he holds the most hits record because he played in the most games. That's it. His other all time records are games played, number of at bats, most hits, most singles, and most outs made.

He's a singles hitter that had no real defensive position because he wasn't a very good defender. He wasn't a very good baserunner. Yes, we've all seen the videos of him crashing into Ray Fosse in the All Star game but in 24 seasons Pete Rose had 198 stolen bases and was caught stealing 149 times. That is a success rate of 57%. That's pretty bad.

A modern equivalent would be Luis Arraez.

 

[RunningBum]

...

Theye could put together a team of players who have been denied entry for various reasons, and challenge them HOF voters to any team anyone could put together from members in the Hall of Fame and would I bet on them to win (Pete wouldn't have to, he'd beat them on his own just like when he was playing.) I'd want him on my team because he was a winner who knew the game and what it took to win.

A few months ago I just happened to think about what my All Time baseball team would look like. I came up with this:

Mays CF
Wagner SS
Ruth RF
Williams DH (the ultimate DH, didn't even like to play the field)
Gehrig 1B
Aaron LF
Schmidt 3B
Bench C
Morgan 2B
SP - W. Johnson, Maddux, R Johnson, Mathewson, Koufax, GIbson
RP – Rivera, Eckersley, Wagner, Fingers
Bench: C – J. Gibson IF – Pujols (1B, also 3B and OF), Foxx (1B, also 3B, C, OF), J Robinson (all IF), OF/1B – Musial, OF – Griffey

It's not necessarily the greatest ball players, but the team I'd want. Leaving off Hornsby was hard, but I've read he was never well-liked and rarely did he play on winners, unlike Joe Morgan. Ty Cobb was easier to leave off with the other OF choices. I also left off banned players, juicers, other unlikable players, flakes, and just people I didn't think would fit in with that team. Mickey Mantle, for example, an undeniable talent, but would he and Ruth together be too destructive of a force to each other and the team?

Compare that to players I would not include on this team due to the factors listed above, rather than guys not quite good enough for my team. Some of these guys are just my bias, so I'm not going to spend a lot of time debating who is on and off these team. Hard to think of a catcher. Pierzynski was the one I've seen named as hated by many.
Cobb CF
Hornsby 2B
Rodriguez SS
Bonds LF
Sosa RF
Ramirez DH
McGwire 1B
Sheffield or Rose 3B
Pierzynski C
SP - Clemens, Schilling, Zambrano, Waddell, Dean, Cicotte
RP- Gagne, Chapman, Rocker, Dibble
bench: J. Jackson Altuve, Strawberry, Kent, Canseco, Palmeiro, Alomar, Anson (racist), Speaker (KKK)

They'd give my team a good game but I don't think they are better. Plus, without juicing a lot of those guys wouldn't even be mentioned among the greats. Bonds, Rodriquez and Clemens would (with great but lesser stats), but not the others, IMO. So compare, for example, Bonds and Aaron. Both were great players, but give Bonds steroids, and that's an unfair advantage.

Since we're talking about Rose, and you don't care about the betting, where would he fit on my team? Not in my OF. No way does he beat out Gehrig at 1B. Schmidt had a better glove and power at 3B, and Morgan at 2B as well. He would be a good utility player, willing to play anywhere (he moved from LF to 3B without complaint to make room for George Foster), and a winner for sure. So he'd have a good shot of making my team, but not as a starter.

 

[RunningBum]

Back to Pete Rose. He is the most deserving player since Ty Cobb.

You've lost all credibility here.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

You've lost all credibility here.

I may have lost credibility, but don't disrespect Pete Rose. Runningbum, if the all time hit leader isn't in the hall of fame on the first ballot who should be?

 

[Stormy Kromer]

A few months ago I just happened to think about what my All Time baseball team would look like. I came up with this:

Mays CF
Wagner SS
Ruth RF
Williams DH (the ultimate DH, didn't even like to play the field)
Gehrig 1B
Aaron LF
Schmidt 3B
Bench C
Morgan 2B
SP - W. Johnson, Maddux, R Johnson, Mathewson, Koufax, GIbson
RP – Rivera, Eckersley, Wagner, Fingers
Bench: C – J. Gibson IF – Pujols (1B, also 3B and OF), Foxx (1B, also 3B, C, OF), J Robinson (all IF), OF/1B – Musial, OF – Griffey

It's not necessarily the greatest ball players, but the team I'd want. Leaving off Hornsby was hard, but I've read he was never well-liked and rarely did he play on winners, unlike Joe Morgan. Ty Cobb was easier to leave off with the other OF choices. I also left off banned players, juicers, other unlikable players, flakes, and just people I didn't think would fit in with that team. Mickey Mantle, for example, an undeniable talent, but would he and Ruth together be too destructive of a force to each other and the team?

Compare that to players I would not include on this team due to the factors listed above, rather than guys not quite good enough for my team. Some of these guys are just my bias, so I'm not going to spend a lot of time debating who is on and off these team. Hard to think of a catcher. Pierzynski was the one I've seen named as hated by many.
Cobb CF
Hornsby 2B
Rodriguez SS
Bonds LF
Sosa RF
Ramirez DH
McGwire 1B
Sheffield or Rose 3B
Pierzynski C
SP - Clemens, Schilling, Zambrano, Waddell, Dean, Cicotte
RP- Gagne, Chapman, Rocker, Dibble
bench: J. Jackson Altuve, Strawberry, Kent, Canseco, Palmeiro, Alomar, Anson (racist), Speaker (KKK)

They'd give my team a good game but I don't think they are better. Plus, without juicing a lot of those guys wouldn't even be mentioned among the greats. Bonds, Rodriquez and Clemens would (with great but lesser stats), but not the others, IMO. So compare, for example, Bonds and Aaron. Both were great players, but give Bonds steroids, and that's an unfair advantage.

Since we're talking about Rose, and you don't care about the betting, where would he fit on my team? Not in my OF. No way does he beat out Gehrig at 1B. Schmidt had a better glove and power at 3B, and Morgan at 2B as well. He would be a good utility player, willing to play anywhere (he moved from LF to 3B without complaint to make room for George Foster), and a winner for sure. So he'd have a good shot of making my team, but not as a starter.

I've lost all credibility with you. but I agree with your two teams except I'd take Joe Mauer over Pierzynski any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Plus, he was a good guy.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

I'll take you up on that. You put together a team of ballplayers that have been denied entrance into the HOF and I'll put together my team consisting of HOF players.

BTW, Pete was a very good player, with a couple of superstar years. But let's face it, he holds the most hits record because he played in the most games. That's it. His other all time records are games played, number of at bats, most hits, most singles, and most outs made.

He's a singles hitter that had no real defensive position because he wasn't a very good defender. He wasn't a very good baserunner. Yes, we've all seen the videos of him crashing into Ray Fosse in the All Star game but in 24 seasons Pete Rose had 198 stolen bases and was caught stealing 149 times. That is a success rate of 57%. That's pretty bad.

A modern equivalent would be Luis Arraez.

His teams seem to win world series. stats arent everything.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

I'll toss this out here and duck.

The best player in baseball history is Barry Bonds.

The best pitcher is Roger Clemens.

Hall of Fame ? If they aren't good enough what is the hall for ?

 

[RunningBum]

I've lost all credibility with you. but I agree with your two teams except I'd take Joe Mauer over Pierzynski any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Plus, he was a good guy.

The second team isn't for good guys like Mauer.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

A few months ago I just happened to think about what my All Time baseball team would look like. I came up with this:

Mays CF
Wagner SS
Ruth RF
Williams DH (the ultimate DH, didn't even like to play the field)
Gehrig 1B
Aaron LF
Schmidt 3B
Bench C
Morgan 2B
SP - W. Johnson, Maddux, R Johnson, Mathewson, Koufax, GIbson
RP – Rivera, Eckersley, Wagner, Fingers
Bench: C – J. Gibson IF – Pujols (1B, also 3B and OF), Foxx (1B, also 3B, C, OF), J Robinson (all IF), OF/1B – Musial, OF – Griffey

It's not necessarily the greatest ball players, but the team I'd want. Leaving off Hornsby was hard, but I've read he was never well-liked and rarely did he play on winners, unlike Joe Morgan. Ty Cobb was easier to leave off with the other OF choices. I also left off banned players, juicers, other unlikable players, flakes, and just people I didn't think would fit in with that team. Mickey Mantle, for example, an undeniable talent, but would he and Ruth together be too destructive of a force to each other and the team?

Compare that to players I would not include on this team due to the factors listed above, rather than guys not quite good enough for my team. Some of these guys are just my bias, so I'm not going to spend a lot of time debating who is on and off these team. Hard to think of a catcher. Pierzynski was the one I've seen named as hated by many.
Cobb CF
Hornsby 2B
Rodriguez SS
Bonds LF
Sosa RF
Ramirez DH
McGwire 1B
Sheffield or Rose 3B
Pierzynski C
SP - Clemens, Schilling, Zambrano, Waddell, Dean, Cicotte
RP- Gagne, Chapman, Rocker, Dibble
bench: J. Jackson Altuve, Strawberry, Kent, Canseco, Palmeiro, Alomar, Anson (racist), Speaker (KKK)

They'd give my team a good game but I don't think they are better. Plus, without juicing a lot of those guys wouldn't even be mentioned among the greats. Bonds, Rodriquez and Clemens would (with great but lesser stats), but not the others, IMO. So compare, for example, Bonds and Aaron. Both were great players, but give Bonds steroids, and that's an unfair advantage.

Since we're talking about Rose, and you don't care about the betting, where would he fit on my team? Not in my OF. No way does he beat out Gehrig at 1B. Schmidt had a better glove and power at 3B, and Morgan at 2B as well. He would be a good utility player, willing to play anywhere (he moved from LF to 3B without complaint to make room for George Foster), and a winner for sure. So he'd have a good shot of making my team, but not as a starter.

Put Rose on any team you put together and they'll win more games.... forget individual stats and look in the wins column. My argument wasn't that he was the best stats leader of any team you could put together, we could all have a good argument about that all night. Of course there were better individual players with better stats. I was only saying that the individual hit leader of major league history should be an automatic in the hall of fame. Just like Clemens, Bonds, and a lot of other guys on the top of the list. I have a question for baseball purists....If you won't let them in the hall of fame why did you let them play the game all of those years when you suspected them of their vices in the first place ? You should have kicked them out when they were playing.

If Kirby Pucket got in on the first ballet with 2,000 fewer hits, that doesn't seem right. And I'm Kirby Pucket's biggest fan.

 

[Koolau]

My only question: Since they didn't do this for Pete Rose (uh, he died) then who did they do it for?? Just wondering.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

AJ Pierzinsky couldn't shine Joe Mauer's shoes. Nor a hundred better catchers than him.