POLL: Dietary protein and age related decline in muscle mass

[skipro33]

I'm on a carnivore diet, began it at the first of the year, so now 3 months and starting on my 4th month. I started at 196 pounds, and now weigh 166 pounds, losing 30 pounds. My goal is to intake 1g of protein for every pound of ideal weight. In my case, my ideal weight is 165 pounds, so that would mean 165 grams of protein per day. I've not been able to attain that, but more like 120 per day. My concern was to lose too much lean on my journey to lose stored fat. My diet includes protein shakes, unsweetened Greek yogurt, eggs, cheese and of course meat. My main go-to snacks are pork rinds, homemade jerky and pickled eggs. I also fast for 5 days every 5 weeks. Between fasts, I do not restrict the quantity of food I want to eat, but I do intermittent fasting every day, 16 hours nothing, then 8-hour window to dine. The only side effect I've noticed is that after 3 weeks or so, my appetite was very low and I had to focus on eating when not feeling hungry. To assure myself that I was hungry, my new litmus was if food tasted good. If it tasted good, then I was hungry. If it doesn't taste good, then I stop and am full.
My energy has increased significantly, and I do notice more muscle definition in my thighs, calves, biceps and chest. Not so much in shoulders and neck. But considering I'm no longer carrying around an extra 30 pounds of blubber, I would expect I'd feel and look more defined in my strength and muscles. I ski, a lot. I go 2 or 3 times a week. My sons join me when they can. My goal is to let them call it when it's time to stop. So far, at my current age of 65, I am always right there skiing with them and never exhausted. In fact, I notice this season that I'm not out of breath nor my heart rate feel accelerated. It's not that we are not skiing aggressively, we do. That's all we do. We ski the terrain parks, the trees, the steepest runs, the mogul bumps and when on the groomed, we carve hard and deep turns, avoiding skids. My other activities, I'm also noticing improvement. On daily walks with my wife, we are now walking at a 4mph pace for 3 miles and can easily carry on a conversation without being short of breath.

I can't express enough how much better I feel without carbs and sugars. It's an epiphany, a real eye-opener.

 

[aja8888]

I'm on a carnivore diet, began it at the first of the year, so now 3 months and starting on my 4th month. I started at 196 pounds, and now weigh 166 pounds, losing 30 pounds. My goal is to intake 1g of protein for every pound of ideal weight. In my case, my ideal weight is 165 pounds, so that would mean 165 grams of protein per day. I've not been able to attain that, but more like 120 per day. My concern was to lose too much lean on my journey to lose stored fat. My diet includes protein shakes, unsweetened Greek yogurt, and meat. I also fast for 5 days every 5 weeks. Between fasts, I do not restrict the quantity of food I want to eat, but I do intermittent fasting every day, 16 hours nothing, then 8-hour window to dine. The only side effect I've noticed is that after 3 weeks or so, my appetite was very low and I had to focus on eating when not feeling hungry. To assure myself that I was hungry, my new litmus was if food tasted good. If it tasted good, then I was hungry. If it doesn't taste good, then I stop and am full.
My energy has increased significantly, and I do notice more muscle definition in my thighs, calves, biceps and chest. Not so much in shoulders and neck. But considering I'm no longer carrying around an extra 30 pounds of blubber, I would expect I'd feel and look more defined in my strength and muscles.

Nice job, Ski! Question, what amount of carbs are you limiting to each day?

 

[skipro33]

Nice job, Ski! Question, what amount of carbs are you limiting to each day?

Under 20g, probably under 10g carbs a day. Protein shake is 4 and yogurt is 5 each. Eggs and cheddar cheese each have less than 1/2g per ounce. (I modified my reply with the eggs/cheese after you quoted my post)

I do want to say, occasionally I'll use diced onion and sliced mushrooms grilled for my smash burgers with a good amount of cheese skirt. Maybe a tablespoon of each.

A sample of meals; my last 24 hours:
breakfast this morning was a porkchop and fried eggs in lard using a cast iron frypan.
lunch yesterday was a COSTCO roasted $5 chicken leg and thigh with skin.
Dinner last night was pulled pork from the smoker with deep-fried cheese sticks using pork rind crumbs and egg wash for a coating.

Normally, I skip breakfast and fast from dinner last night @ 7pm to 12 noon, 17 hours. Then a snack like some chicken, can of sardines, pork rind dipped in warm, gooey queso, jerky or a pickled egg.

I do make our own mayo which I might have maybe once a week or 2. I use it to use up the leftover roasted chicken and chop up some pickled eggs for a chicken salad. I'll season with celery salt and a homemade smoked paprika.

 

[aja8888]

Under 20g, probably under 10g carbs a day. Protein shake is 4 and yogurt is 5 each. Eggs and cheddar cheese each have less than 1/2g per ounce. (I modified my reply with the eggs/cheese after you quoted my post)

I do want to say, occasionally I'll use diced onion and sliced mushrooms grilled for my smash burgers with a good amount of cheese skirt. Maybe a tablespoon of each.

A sample of meals; my last 24 hours:
breakfast this morning was a porkchop and fried eggs in lard using a cast iron frypan.
lunch yesterday was a COSTCO roasted $5 chicken leg and thigh with skin.
Dinner last night was pulled pork from the smoker with deep-fried cheese sticks using pork rind crumbs and egg wash for a coating.

Normally, I skip breakfast and fast from dinner last night @ 7pm to 12 noon, 17 hours. Then a snack like some chicken, can of sardines, pork rind dipped in warm, gooey queso, jerky or a pickled egg.

I do make our own mayo which I might have maybe once a week or 2. I use it to use up the leftover roasted chicken and chop up some pickled eggs for a chicken salad. I'll season with celery salt and a homemade smoked paprika.

Thanks, that's about what level of carbs I shoot at but need to stay the mixed nuts I snack on. I do go through some pork skins though!

 

[Golden Mean]

I like eating lots of protein and have recently cut out sugar from my diet so I have been slowly losing body fat.
Can tell at the gym that I haven't lost any muscle.
Was thinking of going on carnivore or keto diet but saw where a study of those diets caused accelerated aging of organs in mice so I
guess I will stick with a more balanced diet.

Do you have a link to that study? I don't think you can compare our metabolism to that of a mouse. Research papers like this are typically riddled with conflicts of interest with big (processed) food corps.

 

[skipro33]

Do you have a link to that study? I don't think you can compare our metabolism to that of a mouse. Research papers like this are typically riddled with conflicts of interest with big (processed) food corps.

The issue about organ aging has to do with electrolytes. Most carnivore dietitians recommend supplementing with salt in drinking water. There are several products specific to the diet available. The lack there-of causes stress on kidneys mostly. I guess a lot of water in veggies and fruits go missing and creatine build up is measured in blood work. Get your blood tests twice a year when going on carnivore until you are sure you are good.
Some folks 'cheat' on carnivore and will eat some veggies high in water content, low in carbs via fiber and low sugars. One such veggie is the cucumber. (Think pickles)
They are 95% water and essentially all carbs are fiber. Since fiber is indigestible, it doesn't affect ketosis. Avocado is another; just about pure fat and fiber, with the fat content excellent fuel for the metabolism. Asparagus is nearly as good but contains some natural sugars which can affect ketosis. Not enough to fall out of ketosis, but the pee test strips will show a lighter shade than not eating the stuff.
It's just up to the individual as to how they view carnivore; as a tool to a goal or as an almost cult-like following.
It is better to 'cheat' with those than to give up the carnivore diet in my opinion. My goal is the lose the fat, retain the muscle and if possible, grow muscle as I age.

 

[Golden Mean]

The issue about organ aging has to do with electrolytes. Most carnivore dietitians recommend supplementing with salt in drinking water. There are several products specific to the diet available. The lack there-of causes stress on kidneys mostly. I guess a lot of water in veggies and fruits go missing and creatine build up is measured in blood work. Get your blood tests twice a year when going on carnivore until you are sure you are good.
Some folks 'cheat' on carnivore and will eat some veggies high in water content, low in carbs via fiber and low sugars. One such veggie is the cucumber. (Think pickles)
They are 95% water and essentially all carbs are fiber. Since fiber is indigestible, it doesn't affect ketosis. Avocado is another; just about pure fat and fiber, with the fat content excellent fuel for the metabolism. Asparagus is nearly as good but contains some natural sugars which can affect ketosis. Not enough to fall out of ketosis, but the pee test strips will show a lighter shade than not eating the stuff.
It's just up to the individual as to how they view carnivore; as a tool to a goal or as an almost cult-like following.
It is better to 'cheat' with those than to give up the carnivore diet in my opinion. My goal is the lose the fat, retain the muscle and if possible, grow muscle as I age.

Interesting. Thanks!
I don't appear to have any issues with water on carnivore. I have a mag/pot/na mix I put together and drink throughout the day. Plenty of water in steak/eggs/chicken etc, too.

 

[Siesta Time]

I have protein powder in my coffe every morning, and love nuts and various cheeses every day. I also eat beans regularly and chicken and fish several times each week.
My problem is I don’t do enough muscle-building exercises!

 

[skipro33]

Interesting. Thanks!
I don't appear to have any issues with water on carnivore. I have a mag/pot/na mix I put together and drink throughout the day. Plenty of water in steak/eggs/chicken etc, too.

Yes, there's plenty of water in those things, BUT...
The diet tends to reduce hunger and, even though there's no restrictions on quantity, and along with the high calorie count, tends to reduce volume of food intake and hence, volume of water intake through food.

 

[imjustawarrior]

I want to be at 190lbs. I was consuming 190 g of protein a day. I found it really hard to do that. If I remember correctly, 40g at once is about the useful limit. This meant I was having to have 5 large protein intakes per day. It was hard because I only naturally eat 3 meals between 7am-5pm. I don't eat outside those times. Just the way I have done things for a long time for no good reason.

I have since cut back to about 150g/day. I find that much easier to manage.

 

[homestead]

Do you have a link to that study? I don't think you can compare our metabolism to that of a mouse. Research papers like this are typically riddled with conflicts of interest with big (processed) food corps.

Here is a link below to the article I read about this. There is also a link in the article to the study they reference.

Ketogenic diets may accelerate aging of the heart and kidneys​

Research in mice suggests that keto diets may accelerate organ aging. Image credit: Susan Brooks-Dammann/Stocksy.

• Scientists recently researched mice to see what impact ketogenic diets have on the internal body organs.
• People who follow a ketogenic — or keto — diet typically consume foods that are higher in fat and lower in carbohydrates.
• While people following this type of diet often lose a significant amount of weight in a short timeframe, medical experts are concerned about the potential risks of keto diets.
• The scientists in the current study found that mice on ketogenic diets experienced increased rates of cellular aging in their body organs.

Does the keto diet cause organs to age faster?

A recent study in mice have found that some ketogenic, or keto, diets are associated with accelerated aging of organs like the heart and kidneys.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

 

[ugeauxgirl]

High protein diets were also thought to cause kidney damage because of a study done in mice. They've tried to replicate the results in humans, but after dozens of studies, they have been unable to do so. I suspect that the ancestral diet of humans and mice were very different.

 

[braumeister]

Here is a link below to the article I read about this. There is also a link in the article to the study they reference.

Ketogenic diets may accelerate aging of the heart and kidneys​

Research in mice suggests that keto diets may accelerate organ aging. Image credit: Susan Brooks-Dammann/Stocksy.

• Scientists recently researched mice to see what impact ketogenic diets have on the internal body organs.

Good grief!
I looked at that study and I think it's worthless. Apart from the fact that mice don't tell you much about humans, they fed the mice mainly Crisco. Over 90% of their calories were from fat, and less than 10% protein.
That is NOT a well formulated ketogenic diet.

 

[audreyh1]

Do you have a link to that study? I don't think you can compare our metabolism to that of a mouse. Research papers like this are typically riddled with conflicts of interest with big (processed) food corps.

Agreed. Those studies usually feed bizarre food mixes (not what humans eat) to mice and not what mice normally eat anyway. Mice are not humans especially when it comes to ketosis.

Good grief!
I looked at that study and I think it's worthless. Apart from the fact that mice don't tell you much about humans, they fed the mice mainly Crisco. Over 90% of their calories were from fat, and less than 10% protein.
That is NOT a well formulated ketogenic diet.

OMG, Crisco! So they are not feeding an appropriate ketogenic diet at all (not that you can even expect to feed mice the human version of a healthy ketogenic diet), and they fed them 90% unhealthy fats, and inadequate protein, and apparently no carbs at all.

But this is so typical! Nutrition science papers are chock full of stuff like this. It’s a real cesspool out there.

 

[aja8888]

Good grief!
I looked at that study and I think it's worthless. Apart from the fact that mice don't tell you much about humans, they fed the mice mainly Crisco. Over 90% of their calories were from fat, and less than 10% protein.
That is NOT a well formulated ketogenic diet.

Crisco is about the worst fat you could feed anybody, including mice.

 

[skipro33]

Here is a link below to the article I read about this. There is also a link in the article to the study they reference.

Ketogenic diets may accelerate aging of the heart and kidneys​

From my research, it looks like the causes for the aging can be offset by intermittent fasting. That is, eating only during an 8-hour window in a 24-hour period, fasting for 16 hours, AKA intermittent fasting. That's what I do. My last meal is at 7pm for the day and I won't break my fast until 11am the next day. Without quoting AI, there's much that can be done with varying the pattern of keto/carnivore/intermittent fasting to prevent any negative cellular aging effects of adhering to strict diet protocols.

I personally take 'breaks' on weekends. Not eating sugar, but I will treat myself to a nice, big breakfast and protein sources outside carnivore. My results have been very satisfying with weight loss, muscle tone, energy and general feeling of wellbeing. I think it really does improve my mental health through disposition. I'm just happier!

 

[homestead]

From my research, it looks like the causes for the aging can be offset by intermittent fasting. That is, eating only during an 8-hour window in a 24-hour period, fasting for 16 hours, AKA intermittent fasting. That's what I do. My last meal is at 7pm for the day and I won't break my fast until 11am the next day. Without quoting AI, there's much that can be done with varying the pattern of keto/carnivore/intermittent fasting to prevent any negative cellular aging effects of adhering to strict diet protocols.

I personally take 'breaks' on weekends. Not eating sugar, but I will treat myself to a nice, big breakfast and protein sources outside carnivore. My results have been very satisfying with weight loss, muscle tone, energy and general feeling of wellbeing. I think it really does improve my mental health through disposition. I'm just happier!

I am also an intermittent faster. I think I know what you are referring to with IF autophagy cleaning out dead cell components.
I may reconsider keto.

 

[Golden Mean]

Crisco is about the worst fat you could feed anybody, including mice.

Yeah, that is strange. Most of the researchers are from an oncology department in Texas. Didn't find any interesting connections/conflicts of interest.

Here's the "food" they fed the mice: https://www.inotiv.com/hubfs/resources/data-sheets/96355.pdf
It is franken planted based "food".

Research like this is why I ignore almost all of these research papers.

 

[GBcycling]

I answerred 1.6 but I find that nearly impossible to attain. I only eat 2 meals a day (64 yr old) to maintain weight. I have stopped whey and powdered proteins after reading that many of them contain metals and have not been willing to pay a premium for cleaner brands. Eggs/Greek yogurt/poultry are my go to's

 

[anethum]

I'm curious how some of you reconcile high animal protein consumption with what has been observed from populations with the greatest longevity? Mediterranean and so-called "Blue Zone" diets where plant-based foods dominate, red meat consumption is minimal, and some fish is consumed, are what the world's longest-living populations typically eat.

The sense I get is that if they can afford it, most people find reasons to eat whatever they wish to eat.

 

[Turbo29]

I answerred 1.6 but I find that nearly impossible to attain. I only eat 2 meals a day (64 yr old) to maintain weight. I have stopped whey and powdered proteins after reading that many of them contain metals and have not been willing to pay a premium for cleaner brands. Eggs/Greek yogurt/poultry are my go to's

The article I read said that the high lead and cadmium levels were in the chocolate powders due to the chocolate. Chocolate (and cocoa and cacao) are heavily contaminated with these metals despite being sometimes touted as healthy for you.

I don't really worry about it. If I could survive growing up in the era of plumbiferous gasoline, I figure a little cocoa is nothing.

 

[GBcycling]

The article I read said that the high lead and cadmium levels were in the chocolate powders due to the chocolate. Chocolate (and cocoa and cacao) are heavily contaminated with these metals despite being sometimes touted as healthy for you.

I don't really worry about it. If I could survive growing up in the era of plumbiferous gasoline, I figure a little cocoa is nothing.

You are right.

From my manufacturing background I know I have ingested and breathed more than my share of foreign particles.

But my spouse is 7 years younger than me and my goal is to pass the day before her. Healthy and Strong!!

 

[skipro33]

I'm curious how some of you reconcile high animal protein consumption with what has been observed from populations with the greatest longevity? Mediterranean and so-called "Blue Zone" diets where plant-based foods dominate, red meat consumption is minimal, and some fish is consumed, are what the world's longest-living populations typically eat.

The sense I get is that if they can afford it, most people find reasons to eat whatever they wish to eat.

American foods are over processed and contain more additives and preservatives. Not just sugars and salt either.

Here in the USA, plants are engineered for production, shelf life, packaging and shipping, hardly any of it is concerned about nutrition and flavor. Ever eat a home-grown tomato and compare it to the ones you get in the store or worse, on your fast-food burger? No wonder Italian food tastes better in Italy than here; the source of their ingredients are purer and not as likely genetically engineered.

The 'food pyramid', was developed not by science, but by marketing.
After careful and watchful dieting, I continued to gain weight as I grew older. When I started reading up on carbs, sugars and fats, realizing that the food pyramid was not telling the truth about how animal fats cause high cholesterol, I tried keto. My blood work improved enough to get a reduction in statins I was prescribed and another for GERD. Now that I'm on a 'mostly' carnivore diet, my blood tests show I no longer need any statins. I'm now 69 years old, and no longer on any medications as well as a cancer survivor. I'm of the opinion that reducing carbs and sugars to the best of my ability has been a big part as to why my cancer has not returned despite it being incurable.

How the Mediterranean's stay healthy, I can only assume, but I do assume that their food source is a huge part of why their diet works for them and that they have a whole lot less additives and preservatives than we are exposed to.

I wonder more about the French who drink a lot of wine, rich sauces and smoke, yet rarely see a fat French person. I observe in public that at least 70% of the people I see are overweight if not downright obese. That's the American diet. My hope is Robert Kennedy gets this to turn around by discussing how things have failed over the past 50 years here.

 

[Ronstar]

I don’t know what my total number is, but my am protein shake is around 70g protein.

As to OP, sounds like he needs more protein in order to maximize the effectiveness of his workouts. If he wants to weigh 165, but now weighs 160 at 120 grams a day, and losing weight, it makes sense that he needs more protein to maintain 165.

I watched a Mark Wahlburg video. Huge workouts. And matching protein intake. I seem to remember him eating big meals every 3 hours from 4 am to 6 or 7 pm. I’ve seen a few others like this. They eat protein beyond the point that they are full. To them, it’s all about maintaining muscle mass. And if they are burning mega calories in their workouts, then they have to compensate for that calorie loss before they start losing lean muscle.

 

[Chuckanut]

It's a fallacy to think the Mediterranean diet does not include much meat, especially red meat. It does have more fish, and lots of fruits and veggies. But, red meat is also part of the diet along with white bread. Perhaps not as much red meat as we eat in the USA, but it is not scarce.

More and more I am leaning towards the idea that often it's not the food, but what they do to the food, that's the problem.