Pralana Gold or Pralana Online?

Midpack

Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
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In an earlier thread, it became clear Pralana is probably worth my investment. Now I am just trying to decide which package to go with, as it appears it's a substantial time commitment for either. I am comfortable with Excel, prefer graphical projections - but I also like the option to see the underlying data in table form.

I am not afraid of Excel at all, but is one more user friendly than the other?

OTOH is one more "black box" than the other? I don't need to see each calculation, but I'm not comfortable with unknown assumptions.

I am a Mac user if that matters. Excel for Mac is sometimes less robust than the Win version.

IIRC, the manual is built in to Online, might be more convenient over a separate manual for Gold.

I realize Online has only been available since October, so maybe they are still making revisions.
 
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I can't speak to Pralana Gold or Online. I did just load the free version, I think they call it Bronze, that is in Excel format, and while my usage has been limited, I don't see anything about it making me want to rush for the upgrade versions. I runs kinda clunky on my pc, which may be due to my version of excel (office 2010). I need to upgrade.

Like you I'm stuck on what model to use going forward. If I'm going to diy this I think I would enjoy it more with everything consolidated and integrated.
 
For what it's worth Midpack, I'd recommend the online version. I started with the excel version back in early 2021 and continue to run the two version side by side. Also, I too am a Mac user and had to purchase Office for Mac 2021 to be able to run the excel macros in the spreadsheet. My Office 2011 would not run PG. The excel version if pretty locked down making it difficult to use on multiple computers. You have to constantly export/import the data file and keep the current version of PG on multiple computers if you want that capability. The online version alleviates that issue for me.

As a 3 year user, I was chosen as an early tester of the online version and I have to say I definitely prefer the online version over the native excel version at this point. It's fast and intuitive and doesn't get bogged down in flashy graphics like so many doughnut data displays on modern apps.

Whichever you chose, I believe you'll be happy with your selection. Feel free to PM me if you need more information. I'd be happy to help you get started with PG.
 
@Midpack - if you decide to purchase one of the plans, I would appreciate an update when you have had a chance to play with it for a while. TIA
 
I’m going to buy I bought Pralana Online based on several recommendations, notably NanoSour, 2HOTinPHX, Exchme along with several YouTube videos and Bogleheads threads. Mac Excel spooks me a little, not always as good as Win for some software, presumably due to Microsoft support more than third party software. I’ll be starting Pralana in Jan.

So you know. I’ve been doing Roth conversions aggressively for 6 years. I started Soc Sec @70 this year, DW starts @70 in 2026. RMDs begin in 2027/2029 for us. So I’m well past when to retire, etc. and well into the retirement spending journey. I plan to use Pralana as a progress double check, and because I just enjoy that kind of work. :crazy:
 
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For what it's worth Midpack, I'd recommend the online version. I started with the excel version back in early 2021 and continue to run the two version side by side. Also, I too am a Mac user and had to purchase Office for Mac 2021 to be able to run the excel macros in the spreadsheet. My Office 2011 would not run PG. The excel version if pretty locked down making it difficult to use on multiple computers. You have to constantly export/import the data file and keep the current version of PG on multiple computers if you want that capability. The online version alleviates that issue for me.

As a 3 year user, I was chosen as an early tester of the online version and I have to say I definitely prefer the online version over the native excel version at this point. It's fast and intuitive and doesn't get bogged down in flashy graphics like so many doughnut data displays on modern apps.

Whichever you chose, I believe you'll be happy with your selection. Feel free to PM me if you need more information. I'd be happy to help you get started with PG.
Yes, on a Mac, the spreadsheet can be a little wonky. I have Microsoft 365 so use the current Excel version, but you still have to unfreeze panes on the Roth Conversion tab now and then.

I am more used to the menu system on the speadsheet, but overall there is some more capability with Online.

Online fills out mock tax forms for each year, so you can see exactly how it is treating your various income streams. I like the Metric MRI feature on several of the reports, where you can click underlined values (like account balance) and it will show the ins and outs that it sees during the year.

Online allows more income streams and expense streams and you can change asset allocation more frequently. I like the Roth Optimizer better in Online. It does SS benefits with monthly resolution on claim dates, better survivor and spousal benefit calculations. If you need an optimizer for when to claim SS that includes your whole portfolio, Online is more powerful than the spreadsheet.

Updates are handled seamlessly. They are issuing small enhancements and bug fixes every couple of weeks in Online so pretty soon it will be substantially better than the spreadsheet. When they issue an update with Online, you don't have to do anything, your calculations will be based on the new version. With the spreadsheet, you have to notice that they issued an update, download it, export your data from your old file, and then import it to the new file.

So no question, Online is more powerful. Also, my understanding is they will update the spreadsheet one last time for 2025 inflation adjustments, but don't plan to do anything more with it, so I would recommend going directly to Online.

I am also available to answer any set-up questions Midpack or other new users may have, either by PM, or on the forum.
 
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I’m going to buy Pralana Online based on several recommendations, notably NanoSour, 2HOTinPHX, Exchme along with several YouTube videos and Bogleheads threads. Mac Excel spooks me a little, not always as good as Win for some software, presumably due to Microsoft support more than third party software. I’ll be starting Pralana in Jan.

So you know. I’ve been doing Roth conversions aggressively for 6 years. I started Soc Sec @70 this year, DW starts @70 in 2026. RMDs begin in 2027/2029 for us. So I’m well past when to retire, etc. and well into the retirement spending journey. I plan to use Pralana as a progress double check, and because I just enjoy that kind of work. :crazy:
Great! Welcome to the PG Club. You'll have fun learning about this exceptional tool. For the price of a nice meal out for two, it's money well spent.
 
I purchased it last year and have the excel version and now access to the online version. I think it is pretty good in helping me decide on the path ahead. For me I realized that at the end of the day it doesn't make a lot of sense to sweat different options on how to take RMDs, do Roth Conversions etc. I do think I would have gotten more out of it during the accumulation phase however the die is pretty much cast now.
 
Spent about an hour entering prelim info. Some of the results aren’t as expected so far, but I need to find all the right toggles, and I know I don’t have assets, income or expenses right yet. I’m really looking forward to using Pralana Online, love the “tabular” and “graphical” views. I tried Roth optimization and got unexpected results, very aggressive and I have same returns for tIRA and Roth, so not sure what’s causing it. Tried Mode 2 also, still very aggressive. I was hoping to see an IRMAA limited conversion plan, but haven’t figured out how yet.
 
I was hoping to see an IRMAA limited conversion plan, but haven’t figured out how yet.
On the "Roth Conversion Parameters" page you simply have to select a limit. To convert up to the first IRMAA increase simply select the 103000/206000 setting. Set the other parameters to "No Limit" if you only want to consider IRMAA as a limiting factor.

Also, be aware as you build your initial plan, that the initial account balances entered are the balances on Jan 1, 20xx. So as of today, you should be entering values from a year ago. I will be entering new EOY values tomorrow and then the outputs may make more sense. Today you will see a 2023 output in the tabular projections. Tomorrow the top line will be 2024 and the numbers for 2025 line will reflect EOY for 2025 after a year of your entered growth rates.
 
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Spent about an hour entering prelim info. Some of the results aren’t as expected so far, but I need to find all the right toggles, and I know I don’t have assets, income or expenses right yet. I’m really looking forward to using Pralana Online, love the “tabular” and “graphical” views. I tried Roth optimization and got unexpected results, very aggressive and I have same returns for tIRA and Roth, so not sure what’s causing it. Tried Mode 2 also, still very aggressive. I was hoping to see an IRMAA limited conversion plan, but haven’t figured out how yet.
Some pointers:

Set a tax rate for any residual t-IRA balance when you pass under Build-Financial Assets-Management-Effective Tax Rate. In our case, that will probably be somewhere around 22-24%.

Set returns for stocks & bonds at Build-Financial Assets -Advanced Portfolio Modeling-Rates of Return and tell the program to use asset rates of return, not account based rates of return at Build-Financial Assets-Management-Account Growth Settings.

I strongly recommend Mode 2 as that lets you do Roth Conversions while holding your asset allocation constant, Mode 1 is only appropriate if you hold the same allocation in all accounts. For Mode 2, there are tabs to fill out including portfolio allocation and the order of priority of which account should hold stocks. It asks for what % stocks to hold in each account. I understand that it will try to hold those until it can't based on your portfolio allocation and the priority you set. However, I just enter 100% stocks for taxable and Roth and 100% bonds for IRAs and that works fine. On the Account Prioritization tab, I put taxable at the top of the list as I want it 100% stocks for tax efficiency.

Then go to the Growth Taxation Tab and you have to do a little math. Look at your stock dividend yield from your 1099 to get a breakdown between your qualified vs. non-qualified dividends. Then apportion that as a percentage of the total projected return. For instance, I project 5% real return and 3% inflation, for a total return of 8%. My funds' average dividends are 1.6%, with 1.2% qualified and 0.4% non-qualified. So I break out the taxation of the expected return as 1.6/8 = 20% qualified dividends taxed as LTCGs, 0.4/8 = 5% non-qualified dividends taxed as simple interest and 75% of the gain would be taxed as LTCG when/if sold.

A tip when entering the unrealized capital gains on Account Initial Balances is to think about whether you will ever need to sell your taxable assets with the highest gains. I made an estimate of the total draw we might need from taxable and just look at the percentage gains that we have in that portion of taxable. That avoids overstating capital gains taxes.

I would run the Roth Optimizer and then go to Analyze - Historical Analysis and run a historical analysis. That will set a baseline that is convenient to use for comparison when you start trying to manually tune your Roth Conversion plan.

The Roth Conversion optimizer only checks conversions to the top of each ordinary income tax bracket for each year. Though it seems "obvious" that you should be able to do better by tuning things to avoid IRMAA tiers and the like, I've found that it's difficult to beat the program's plan by very much as limiting conversions in one year often causes a problem in another year. If you want to over-ride and limit to a particular IRMAA tier or avoid paying LTCG taxes or limit to an ACA FPL in a given year, just enter the year(s) and select those as limits. When doing my own planning, I look very closely at individual IRMAA tiers to make sure that not only does it provide some benefit, but that it's a reasonable sized benefit - Roth Conversions can hurt you in a 1965 type of scenario where you convert in good times but later live in bad times for an extended period.

A cool feature of the program is you can actually look at the magnitude of the penalty you would have suffered if we get a replay of bad historical times. Under historical analysis, you can select, say, 1965 as the starting year and the program switches from showing you the results of your idyllic smooth growth and instead all the year by year account balances, gains and losses, etc. will switch to show what would have happened in that historical starting year - absolutely a unique feature. You can compare the terminal wealth you would have had in those bad times with and without Roth Conversions, to demonstrate to yourself that you do want to be a bit careful and not chase every $.
 
Darn it, you guys have dragged my ADHD attention back into this. DW and I missed the early start on Roth conversions but got on the late train a couple of years ago. I bought PG to test my unintuitive analysis on whether to make a few large conversions at already high rates. PG encouraged moving ahead which I did. I suspect the difference was modest and will only impact our heirs. After setting our course I put PG aside and my interests switched to astrophotography.

Now with me several years into RMDs and DW just starting, this conversation brings up the question of whether Pralana Online might be useful for "exit planning." If any of you start using it to help you evaluate how to structure your assets for your final years and optimized inheritance portfolio, I would appreciate your observations.
 
I’ll be working with Pralana today and using the manual. I am wondering:
  • Answered above, thank you - though I don't see non-qualified as a choice so I put those dividends as interest taxable Fed and state? How are dividends being calculated? After entering initial account balances, first pass my Pralana calculated dividends were way low at $29K, then way high at $85K after I changed the taxable account asset allocation - but I suspect I unwittingly changed something else. Also where do qualified dividends differentiate? I looked at the 1040 and it counted all dividends as qualified. My dividends are closer to $68K, $52K qualified.
  • Just found it, and I see answer below. You guys are wonderful. We have partially non deductible tIRAs, DW’s about 80% taxable, mine about 96% taxable. Haven’t found where that’s set.
Looking forward to getting closer today.
 
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Answered above, thank you - though I don't see non-qualified as a choice so I put those dividends as interest taxable Fed and state?
Yes, Pralana calls that "growth taxed as interest" meaning taxed as ordinary income.
We have partially non deductible tIRAs, DW’s about 80% taxable, mine about 96% taxable. Haven’t found where that’s set.
You input that where you input the account value on Build-Account Initial Balances. Just to the right of the entry for the account balance is a field called "After-tax contributions".
 
Darn it, you guys have dragged my ADHD attention back into this. DW and I missed the early start on Roth conversions but got on the late train a couple of years ago. I bought PG to test my unintuitive analysis on whether to make a few large conversions at already high rates. PG encouraged moving ahead which I did. I suspect the difference was modest and will only impact our heirs. After setting our course I put PG aside and my interests switched to astrophotography.

Now with me several years into RMDs and DW just starting, this conversation brings up the question of whether Pralana Online might be useful for "exit planning." If any of you start using it to help you evaluate how to structure your assets for your final years and optimized inheritance portfolio, I would appreciate your observations.
It doesn't cover inheritance issues, that's super-complicated and has lots of family variations, state level inheritance taxes, charitable bequests, trusts, etc.
 
I like the online version, but used the excel one for only a few months.

The one area that i had trouble with was the Growth Taxation input and found this post in the forum (very useful) to be very helpful.

Good luck. I've enjoyed playing with it and it has definitely made me more comfortable with my ROTH conversion plans. I find these programs to be most useful when comparing multiple options or plans. To expect it to faithfully tell you how much you can spend or your net worth years into the future is unrealistic.

The developer(s) are responsive on the forums, but the team, from what I can tell, is very small. So be patient with them.
 
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I like the online version, but used the excel one for only a few months.

The one area that i had trouble with was the Growth Taxation input and found this post in the forum (very useful) to be very helpful.

Good luck. I've enjoyed playing with it and it has definitely made me more comfortable with my ROTH conversion plans. I find these programs to be most useful when comparing multiple options or plans. To expect it to faithfully tell you how much you can spend or your net worth years into the future is unrealistic.

The developer(s) are responsive on the forums, but the team, from what I can tell, is very small. So be patient with them.
I’m still struggling with dividends. I’ve seen your linked post, but as that noted there is no non-qualified dividend option in Pralana Online Growth Taxation. That answer was use Tax As Interest which may come out the same, but not correct on the 1040 facsimile. No matter what % I choose lines 3a Qual Divs and 3b Ordinary Divs are the same - and that’s not correct. I still haven’t been able to get Dividends to come out right anyway.

[edit] The methodology linked above (which I’ve seen mentioned by others) doesn’t make sense to me after all? Income from dividends is pretty predictable as a function of shares held. Whereas appreciation fluctuates dramatically every year. So while expressing dividends as a part of total returns from stocks/funds may be OK for the long term, it’s not representative for a given year. If I alter the Growth Taxation to make my 2024 tax return reasonably accurate, it’s wrong for the long term AND vice versa. Ideally dividends, qualified and ordinary, should not be expressed as part of total returns IMHO.

And even though I have all IRAs with the same assets/allocation and using Mode 1 or 2 - Roth optimization is suggesting I convert everything in one year well into the 24% bracket? I’d like to see IRMAA limited conversions, but I haven’t been able to get that to work yet. Still working on it, doesn’t bother me.
 
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I’m still struggling with dividends. I’ve seen your linked post, but as that noted there is no non-qualified dividend option in Pralana Online Growth Taxation. That answer was use Tax As Interest which may come out the same, but not correct on the 1040 facsimile. No matter what % I choose lines 3a Qual Divs and 3b Ordinary Divs are the same - and that’s not correct. I still haven’t been able to get Dividends to come out right anyway.
Sorry, I should have been more precise, qualified dividends are taxed the same as LTCGs so in the program it's called "Growth Taxed as LTCGs".

And even though I have all IRAs with the same assets/allocation and using Mode 1 or 2 - Roth optimization is suggesting I convert everything in one year well into the 24% bracket? I’d like to see IRMAA limited conversions, but I haven’t been able to get that to work yet.
The Roth Optimizer will check only ordinary tax brackets. If you want to limit to an IRMAA tier, then enter the year that you want to limit and select the IRMAA tier you want to use. Each time you make a change on the table, it recalculates everything, so if you scroll down and are looking at the "Active vs. Baseline" tab below the input area, you can see what it calculates for your ending value with each change you make. You can select the Details by Year tab to see exactly what it was converting each year.
 
Since I never fool with Simple Portfolio Modeling and always used Advanced, maybe the problem is I forgot to tell you to go to Build-Financial Assets-Management-Account Growth Settings and select Advanced Portfolio Modeling. I think they are going to change things to consolidate the input screens, but right now you can be entering taxation values for "Advanced", while you've actually selected to use "Simple" or vice-versa, so you make a change and it doesn't do anything. If that turns out to be the issue, it would be worthwhile to click the Feedback button, and tell them it was confusing.
 
I was using Advanced Portfolio Modeling.

However, I received a refund from Pralana this morning. The details aren't important, though the answer to my non/qualified dividend question above (unsatisfactory IMO), two completely different Roth optimizations in 2 days and then posting a question on the Pralana forum to then be told "you have been banned" was the last straw.

I will say Stuart, the owner I believe, could not be more earnest and helpful. He offered to help me, but issued a prompt refund this morning and apologized for the forum bug. I am sure Pralana is a fantastic planning tool, with many happy customers - as long as you're up for a steep learning curve and some counterintuitive entries.

I might try Boldin/New Retirement, but my original 2019 plan and home grown spreadsheets may be all I need. Sorry for the wild goose chase.
 
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Another option was to let Stuart look at the plan, he often shows people where they went wrong. That's also useful to him to see where users are getting stuck.
 
Thanks for offering to be the crash test dummy. I've been watching your posts on this subject as I'm ready to make the leap too. Boldin piqued my interest too.
 
If the input is done correctly, the program handles Midpack's issue just fine. I presume there was something confusing on the input menus that tripped Midpack up.

I think Midpack got especially frustrated when their forum glitched when trying to ask for support. That happened to someone a couple of months ago too, that person wrote to them and they reset it and the post went through and that person is now a happy customer. (I think Midpack's query actually did post on their forum in spite of the message to the contrary). In retrospect, maybe using the more direct way to contact the developers would have been better which is to export the data file and send the data file to: mail pralanaconsulting.com.
 
If the input is done correctly, the program handles Midpack's issue just fine. I presume there was something confusing on the input menus that tripped Midpack up.

I think Midpack got especially frustrated when their forum glitched when trying to ask for support. That happened to someone a couple of months ago too, that person wrote to them and they reset it and the post went through and that person is now a happy customer. (I think Midpack's query actually did post on their forum in spite of the message to the contrary). In retrospect, maybe using the more direct way to contact the developers would have been better which is to export the data file and send the data file to: mail pralanaconsulting.com.
The forum issue was indeed the last straw.

Again Stuart couldn’t be more understanding, but…

If you can give me the answer to accurately entering ordinary and qualified dividends for baseline, I’ll be happy to reconsider. The answer above (quote below) and same as the Pralana forum is not satisfactory for reasons in post #17 above. I should be able to enter exact ordinary and qualified dividends without having to back into them, distorting projections.
Then go to the Growth Taxation Tab and you have to do a little math. Look at your stock dividend yield from your 1099 to get a breakdown between your qualified vs. non-qualified dividends. Then apportion that as a percentage of the total projected return. For instance, I project 5% real return and 3% inflation, for a total return of 8%. My funds' average dividends are 1.6%, with 1.2% qualified and 0.4% non-qualified. So I break out the taxation of the expected return as 1.6/8 = 20% qualified dividends taxed as LTCGs, 0.4/8 = 5% non-qualified dividends taxed as simple interest and 75% of the gain would be taxed as LTCG when/if sold.
 
Thanks for offering to be the crash test dummy. I've been watching your posts on this subject as I'm ready to make the leap too. Boldin piqued my interest too.
I started into Boldin this afternoon, and I won’t subscribe after the free 14 day trial. Like Pralana, it’s also less precise than my own spreadsheets. Pralana has more to offer than Boldin, but it’s still less precise than I’d want, with a steep counterintuitive learning curve. OTOH Boldin is WAY more user friendly, more pretty than useful.

YMMV
 
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