PSA: How Long to Finish Trust/Estate Admin

[badatmath]

Home: realtor, appraiser, mortgage company, title company, gas, electric, water, TV, internet, tax assessor, home insurance, pest control, HVAC service, HOA, sprinkler repair, floor replacement, microwave install, etc.
Financial: 2 Vanguard Accts, checking acct, LTC policy, Morgan Stanley stranded 401k, local bank trust checking, SSA
Medical: Medicare, Humana, hospital, ambulance service, hospice care, assisted living, in home personal caretaker, several doctors
Other: Estate sale, charitable donations, gifting her car, probate attorney (for checking acct only), mobile plan, postage/mailing, travel expenses, funeral, miscellaneous, Apple device trade-ins

Again, the phone calls & emails were multiples of the number of transactions.

What did you do for Medicare/Humana? Doesn't SS tell them the person is no longer alive? Or did you just need to reconcile statements with outstanding bills?

 

[Route246]

I had a different experience. My father's estate was around $3M, mostly in his house. Long before he died my brother and I became joint holders of most of his bank accounts so when he died it was a simple matter as I already had POA and became the successor trustee. Some accounts were more "friendly" than others in terms of ease of access and personal banking relationships. We migrated all of the funds to a "friendly" account where we were both full co-signers and both had full access to the account long before my father died. He (my father) was very much OK with this. He was a very unselfish person and wanted his passing and his estate to be extremely clean and worked hard to close accounts and get everything cleaned up while he still had his mind and body intact. The trust attorney was in on this, too, as she also had everything setup to be as frictionless as possible. I did spend some time at one of the banks getting paperwork completed but nothing bothersome. We sold the house, chopped the proceeds 50-50 on the day of closing and I wired his 50% the same day. We had a competent realtor and CPA handling the finances and taxes and it was really unlike some of the stories here. I do remember having to send back his last month of SS and that was probably the biggest issue, otherwise, everything was very sanitary and quite easy.

 

[Koolau]

Just closed out my spreadsheet, a total of 124 transactions to settle the Trust/estate, probably 3 times that in phone calls/emails. I never would have imagined there would be that much to settling a Trust - especially for a sole beneficiary.

That's insane! I hope you have come through this unscathed. Thanks for keeping us posted.

Time to redouble my efforts to get our estate plan in order. Aloha and blessings.

 

[Midpack]

Wow! How many accounts / major items were there to deal with?

My Dad's estate involves about eight, but there are twelve beneficiaries so it's a different situation.

Home: realtor, appraiser, mortgage company, title company, gas, electric, water, TV, internet, tax assessor, home insurance, pest control, HVAC service, HOA, sprinkler repair, floor replacement, microwave install, etc.
Financial: 2 Vanguard Accts, checking acct, LTC policy, Morgan Stanley stranded 401k, local bank trust checking, SSA
Medical: Medicare, Humana, hospital, ambulance service, hospice care, assisted living, in home personal caretaker, several doctors
Other: Estate sale, charitable donations, gifting her car, probate attorney (for checking acct only), mobile plan, postage/mailing, travel expenses, funeral, miscellaneous, Apple device trade-ins

Again, the phone calls & emails were multiples of the number of transactions.

 

[Midpack]

One final item in case I didn’t share it. All but one institution (Vanguard got it right) I dealt with retitled my sisters accounts “estate of (her name)” as soon as they learned she had passed away, before receiving the death certificate in some cases. No notice, or questions even though I presented myself as “Successor Trustee” and even sent in the Trust document to some of them - they just automatically retitle as “estate of.” Any significant payouts with “estate of” on them force you into probate, contrary to the intentions of the deceased original grantor/trustee. Probate typically means $2000-5000 in attorney fees and 4-8 weeks to get scheduled to appear before a probate judge in the state the Trust is from (1200 miles away in my case). IME it took 2-5 weeks to get checks made payable to my sisters Trust instead of “estate of.” So if you see “estate of” appear on any account you’re trying to resolve, you might as well initiate changing it to the Trust right away, or you’ll be adding 2-5 weeks at the end of that transaction. FWIW

 

[ncbill]

Were those accounts already retitled into the name of the (presumably RLT) trust?

 

[pb4uski]

^^^+1 If so, it would have made things much easier.

 

[Midpack]

Were those accounts already retitled into the name of the (presumably RLT) trust?

^^^+1 If so, it would have made things much easier.

The major items such as her Vanguard accounts and her home itself, the bulk of her estate, were.

But she forgot to include her checking account, and though she told me she made it POD, evidently she never got around to it. The other issues were with:

• her mortgage company (which changed hands after she put the house in trust),
• John Hancock LTC,
• Travelers homeowners insurance (unfortunately a refund) and
• Morgan Stanley stranded 401k (which I'm letting escheat)
• ...all of them retitled her accounts to "estate of" without notice.

And since none of them would let me talk to anyone above the CSR robots, who are evidently trained everything is either in a name or "estate of" - it was extremely difficult to get someone who knew the difference between a trust and will/probate involved. I had many CSR robots who refused to let me talk to anyone else - even when I asked to speak to a supervisor or escalate my case. I had one who insisted on payment to "estate of [sisters name]" and said "I've already told you what your (wrong) options are, I'm not going to explain it again."

IOW, you can't retitle everything IME...

It's interesting how they all want to go by the book when they are paying out, but they will immediately accept payments from anyone regardless with no questions asked...

 

[SecondCor521]

It's interesting how they all want to go by the book when they are paying out, but they will immediately accept payments from anyone regardless with no questions asked...

Of course one should always follow the law.

I have heard other people say that they have used mobile deposit to deposit "Estate of Jane Smith" checks into non-estate checking accounts and then distributed the funds appropriately via Venmo / Paypal / personal check.

Depending on the size of the check, I'm not sure how much the bank pays attention.

As long as the beneficiaries are all aware and content with such minor lawbreaking, I personally don't have a problem with it.

 

[badatmath]

Of course one should always follow the law.

I have heard other people say that they have used mobile deposit to deposit "Estate of Jane Smith" checks into non-estate checking accounts and then distributed the funds appropriately via Venmo / Paypal / personal check.

Depending on the size of the check, I'm not sure how much the bank pays attention.

As long as the beneficiaries are all aware and content with such minor lawbreaking, I personally don't have a problem with it.

Might have been a coincidence but I could not deposit a check to myself via my bank ATM cause it was made out to my name TOD. The bank did let me deposit in person but they had to call a manager and made me sit there awhile so they could think it over.

 

[SecondCor521]

Might have been a coincidence but I could not deposit a check to myself via my bank ATM cause it was made out to my name TOD. The bank did let me deposit in person but they had to call a manager and made me sit there awhile so they could think it over.

I'm not sure if it makes a difference, but I was referring to mobile deposit to mean using an app on your cell phone. You log into your bank app, take a picture of the front and back of the check, put in the amount, and it deposits the check for you.

I'm not sure how that differs in practice from depositing a check at an ATM in terms of bank scrutiny, but that's the method that others have mentioned working and I have seen work.

 

[badatmath]

I'm not sure if it makes a difference, but I was referring to mobile deposit to mean using an app on your cell phone. You log into your bank app, take a picture of the front and back of the check, put in the amount, and it deposits the check for you.

I'm not sure how that differs in practice from depositing a check at an ATM in terms of bank scrutiny, but that's the method that others have mentioned working and I have seen work.

Good point.

 

[pb4uski]

The major items such as her Vanguard accounts and her home itself, the bulk of her estate, were.

But she forgot to include her checking account, and though she told me she made it POD, evidently she never got around to it. The other issues were with:

• her mortgage company (which changed hands after she put the house in trust),
• John Hancock LTC,
• Travelers homeowners insurance (unfortunately a refund) and
• Morgan Stanley stranded 401k (which I'm letting escheat)
• ...all of them retitled her accounts to "estate of" without notice.

And since none of them would let me talk to anyone above the CSR robots, who are evidently trained everything is either in a name or "estate of" - it was extremely difficult to get someone who knew the difference between a trust and will/probate involved. I had many CSR robots who refused to let me talk to anyone else - even when I asked to speak to a supervisor or escalate my case. I had one who insisted on payment to "estate of [sisters name]" and said "I've already told you what your (wrong) options are, I'm not going to explain it again."

IOW, you can't retitle everything IME...

It's interesting how they all want to go by the book when they are paying out, but they will immediately accept payments from anyone regardless with no questions asked...

Hard to follow, but did you have ANY accounts that were in the name of her RLT that retitled to "estate of" after she passed?

 

[Midpack]

Hard to follow, but did you have ANY accounts that were in the name of her RLT that retitled to "estate of" after she passed?

None. It was only the ones I noted above - and I'd be very surprised if anyone thought to put all of them in their RLT, but I could be mistaken.

 

[ncbill]

Yep, on the last RLT I had to also open "small estate" probate because I missed a vehicle.

Other people (not the deceased) told me it had already been given away, and a few hundred bucks (my mistake) in a personal account.

At the time $150 fee to open a regular estate, but still $120 to open a small estate ($15 to close either)

During COVID, everything done by phone & mail, so slower than usual.

 

[Northforker]

Midpack, thanks for this. My 95 year old mother is on Hospice and I am her POA and Executor and will face the estate administration soon. Being her POA has been 5 years of stress and many many hours of work. Her assets, taxes etc were a mess. I think I have finally found everything and gotten her taxes and assets straightened out. I have 2 sisters and the 3 of us are beneficiaries of her estate. The sisters have been absolutely no help. I have not charged for my time for being POA but I am considering charging for my time for being Executor. Midpack, have you charged the estate for your time?

Some states have statutory rates for serving as executor of an estate. Kentucky has a formula using percentages of the estate size. While I did not charge my 3 brothers for the numerous hours required for this responsibility, I did make them aware of the statute. It would have amounted to about 45k for a 3 million dollar estate.

 

[Koolau]

I thought there was a way to "import" (probably wrong word) anything you "forgot" to "import" into your RLT using some boiler-plate language in your trust?

No experience but at the "seminars" they mention something like that IIRC.

 

[SecondCor521]

I thought there was a way to "import" (probably wrong word) anything you "forgot" to "import" into your RLT using some boiler-plate language in your trust?

No experience but at the "seminars" they mention something like that IIRC.

I doubt a trust can have language that can go out and "grab" assets of the individual.

What one can do, though - and my Dad did this - is to have a pour over will. My Dad's will basically said that all of his assets (that were not already in the trust and did not have beneficiaries) were to be poured over into a trust. The trust assets were then divided three ways between us children.

 

[Lewis Clark]

What one can do, though - and my Dad did this - is to have a pour over will. My Dad's will basically said that all of his assets (that were not already in the trust and did not have beneficiaries) were to be poured over into a trust. The trust assets were then divided three ways between us children.

I have done a fair bit of reading about trusts. Most of those sources said that pour-over wills should always be in place to cover things that (for whatever reason) were not included in the trusts.

 

[pb4uski]

I thought there was a way to "import" (probably wrong word) anything you "forgot" to "import" into your RLT using some boiler-plate language in your trust?

No experience but at the "seminars" they mention something like that IIRC.

Perhaps you are thinking of a spillover will where the RLT is the beneficiary.

 

[Koolau]

I doubt a trust can have language that can go out and "grab" assets of the individual.

What one can do, though - and my Dad did this - is to have a pour over will. My Dad's will basically said that all of his assets (that were not already in the trust and did not have beneficiaries) were to be poured over into a trust. The trust assets were then divided three ways between us children.

Yeah, that's the terminology I (now) recall - since you mention it. It WAS "pour over" and I'm sure you're, right. It's part of a will. I don't know what I'm talking about here, but it seemed like it was designed to "fix" the problem that Midpack ran into. I've been to at least 3 seminars on trusts and they all mention having a "pour over" will or some such.

Thanks for reminding me.

 

[a60dan]

Thanks for your post, Midpack. My 88 yo mother had a will, revocable trust, and POA done about 1 1/2years ago. Despite doing really well health wise, the last several months she has mentally declined to the point I took over paying her bills. I just realized the two bank accounts that has all her cash and CDs have not been renamed to the revocable trust. Nor does she have a POD on these accounts so we would have to go through probate for those accounts. Which means we would have no access to her money to pay for bills while waiting for that to happen. I’m going to have figure out how to get this done ASAP.

As long as she lives, your POA is valid to take prudent action.

 

[iloveyoga]

Having just finished, I was surprised how long it all took. My sister had almost all her assets in her trust (thank goodness). While there are definite advantages to a trust, privacy and avoiding probate for example, that does not mean it's all quick and easy. Vanguard was great. John Hancock and Newrez mortgage were incompetent. I am absolutely convinced John Hancock's SOP includes stalling the customer with endless requests, one at a time and each with a 10-15 business day wait, hoping the beneficiary will give up.

The biggest issue IME - there are many financial organizations that slot everything into wills & probate, and getting to handle trust assets takes finding the right people in the organization - that proved to be very difficult with some firms. The script reading robots you get to talk to are trained to handle wills/probate, and most won't allow you to talk to anyone above the front line robots. It was a PITA.

There's no standard, so don't take these times as predictive. Just an example of the time it's taken me.

How Long?	Task
1 day	USPS mail forwarding
1-30 days	cancelling credit cards - most LT 2 days, Chase Visa & Target CC were MUCH longer
13 days	estate sale once house was sold
2 weeks	cancelling non essential online accounts
2 wks + 3 days	sale of home once listed
2 wks + 4 days	obtaining death certificate
2 wks + 5 days	utilities in my name
3 wks + 4 days	access to Vanguard brokerage & rIRA (and me waiting for the death cert held them up)
4 weeks	mortgage authority
1 month + 5 days	Homeowners insurance in my name
1 month + 8 days	Prop tax in my name
1 month + 11 days	Assisted living final payment
1 month + 16 days	Insurance fund disbursement from mortgage company
2 mos + 15 days	Access to sisters checking acct (she forgot to include in trust, forced into probate w $2500 in attorney fees...)
2 mos + 19 days	Home repairs (floor replacement etc.)
3 mos + 7 days	Deleted Google & Microsoft accts
4 mos + 3 days	Sale of home from date of death
4 mos + 20 days	Cancelling remaining essential online accounts (Apple ID, email, her utilities, etc.)
4 mos + 20 days	Apple device trade ins iPad, iPhone, MacBook
4 mos + 25 days	John Hancock LTC settlement (and they paid 1/3rd what we were entitled to)
never	Morgan Stanley 401k rollover residual, would have cost more to recover than it's $ value, left to escheat

I have been settled three estates and I would agree with your timing. My in laws and my Dad. They all let me handle their financial affairs before hand and that helped a lot.