Ramsey made me think twice... $3.5M PF earning 100k/yr...

Firecalc says a portfolio of $3.5M against $50k of current spend with only 50% in equities, will survive 40 years for 100% of the historical scenarios.

You only need to concern yourself with return if you have goals to leave a certain size estate.
 
I would really doubt anyone's cognitive abilities who thinks that Dave Ramsey has any idea what he is talking about, he has been resoundedly defeated and ridiculed in the finance community almost as bad as the scammer Robert Kyosaki. [Mod Edit]
 
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Not a Dave Ramsay fan for a few reasons but randomly stumbled on a recent segment from his show that resonated with me.

A guest called in my age range- mid 60s - states he has 3.5M in assets - still works - and questioning whether he can retire. The guy claimed his work income at 170k/year.
Dave's bottom line is, with those assets, he should 'easily 'be earning 350k/year off the PF alone. Double his work income, doing nothing so, no-brainer. Retire.
Dave casually suggests being mostly invested in 'growth mutual funds' to get that return and that "rarely has the market ever" seen under 5% return. "Maybe 2 years.."

I'm sitting at about 3.5M, age 68 next month. Still working and self-employed but
not pulling in an attorney's salary - more like 40k as a freelancer. Could be 100k+
but i don't want to work that much anymore.

Dividend income generated by my 50/50 AA PF ranges about $105-110k a year in the last few years. I still work some because i can take it or leave it and not stress about it. I also feel less stress having an allocation that's moderate, not all-in on growth funds - which apparently is way conservative in Dave's eyes, with his kind of presumptuous smug assurance that the dude is gonna make 350k/year off a 3.5M
PF and that's that.

I don't feel like tolerating a lot more risk..which to me, his default-recommendation assumes.
My question being...is 100k/year with a 3.5M/year PF overly protective. Should i consider a slightly more aggressive position. I'm not extravagant, COLA is low...
I own my modest 250k house, have no debt. I'll get an SS income of 34k/year if i take it this year, maybe 40k at 70 FWIW. My inclination is take it this year and invest most of it.

I think i'm ok in any event...this just made me question what backs up his slam-dunk certainty of 10% a year...and that anything less than 5%/year in an all-growth fund PF is a foolish expectation.
I’m at a similar age with a comparable portfolio. I retired eight years ago with less than half of this amount, and somehow managed just fine.
Only about 2.5% of households in this country have a portfolio of this size. If this isn’t enough, what exactly is the other 97.5% supposed to do?
My portfolio has been over 95% invested in unique/specialty bond funds, and it has performed very well too.
Dave Ramsey is fine for people who are buried in debt, but his advice doesn’t really apply to everyone else.
 
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I’m at a similar age with a comparable portfolio. I retired eight years ago with less than half of this amount, and somehow managed just fine.
Ditto. Partly do to good timing, I believe, and my spending levels are higher than the OP. The last eight years have been good. But it's hard to lose the jitters about your plan until you actually get through a few years.
 
Only about 2.5% of households in this country have a portfolio of this size. If this isn’t enough, what exactly is the other 97.5% supposed to do?
Interesting stat. Do you mind sharing where you got that? Just curious.
I have always looked at DQYDJ.com and a net worth of $3.5M excluding home equity is in the 95.5 percentile.
 
I would really doubt anyone's cognitive abilities who thinks that Dave Ramsey has any idea what he is talking about, he has been resoundedly defeated and ridiculed in the finance community almost as bad as the scammer Robert Kyosaki. [Mod Edit]
Really? Every time I hear other web personalities mention DR it’s like they’re walking on eggshells. I assume it’s because of his huge following but that’s not a reason to ignore some of the stuff he says about investing.
 
DR investing advice gets low marks on this site and others. He used to stay in his lane.
 
Interesting stat. Do you mind sharing where you got that? Just curious.
I have always looked at DQYDJ.com and a net worth of $3.5M excluding home equity is in the 95.5 percentile.
I asked AI
How many US households have 1 million portfolio without real estate?
12.5%
How many have a mill
2.6%
 
why can't you spend more than 4%? at that age in mid 60s. Are you trying to preserve principal? Now 10% is a bit much but well i don't think 5-6% would be terrifying. I guess it depends on most people.
It is true that you can't safely spend more than 4%. It's a little counterintuitive but true.

The reason is called sequence of returns risk and if by bad luck of the draw you retire at one of the worst possible times that withdrawals above 4% combined with sub-par returns early in retirement run the risk that you will run out of money.

Now that assumes that one wouldn't see the impending train wreck coming and reduce withdrawals/spending in response, but it is a real risk. See Gemini explanation below for more details.

The "4% Rule" isn't a law of nature, but it exists because of a mathematical "monster" called Sequence of Returns Risk (SORR).
To put it simply: In retirement, the order in which you get your investment returns matters just as much as the average return.

The Core Concept​

If you were just saving money (the "accumulation phase"), a bad year in the market is actually a "sale" on stocks. But when you are withdrawing (the "decumulation phase"), a bad year at the start can be a permanent wound to your portfolio.

Why the "Average" is a Trap​

Imagine two retirees, both starting with $1M and both averaging a 7% annual return over 3 years.
YearRetiree A (Good Sequence)Retiree B (Bad Sequence)
Year 1+20%-20%
Year 2+7%+7%
Year 3-20%+20%
Average7%7%
If they weren't touching the money, they’d end up with the same amount. But if they are both withdrawing $50,000 a year, Retiree B is in big trouble. Retiree B is forced to sell shares when the price is low to make that $50k withdrawal, "locking in" those losses and leaving less capital behind to grow when the market finally recovers.

Why 4%?​

The 4% Rule (derived from the Trinity Study) was designed to survive the "Worst Case Scenarios" in history—like retiring right before the Great Depression or the stagflation of the 1970s.
  • The Math of Recovery: If your portfolio drops 50% in Year 1, you need a 100% gain just to get back to even. If you are also pulling money out during that 50% drop, the "climb back up" becomes mathematically impossible.
  • Inflation Protection: That 4% usually needs to increase every year to keep up with the cost of living. If the market is down and your withdrawal amount is going up, the "burn rate" accelerates.

How to Fight Sequence Risk​

Your friend doesn't necessarily have to stick to a rigid 4% forever, but they should have a plan for those first 5–10 years of retirement:
  • The "Bucket" Strategy: Keep 2–3 years of cash in a high-yield savings account so you don't have to sell stocks during a market crash.
  • Dynamic Spending: Agree to skip the "inflation raise" or cut spending by 10% in years when the market is down.
  • Guardrails: Only increase spending when the portfolio hits certain high-water marks.
Bottom Line: Sequence risk is like a plane takeoff. If you hit turbulence right as you're leaving the ground, it's much more dangerous than hitting it once you're at cruising altitude.
Would you like me to run a quick simulation or a table showing how a "Bad Sequence" specifically drains a portfolio over 10 years?
To show why this is so dangerous, let’s look at two people—Steady Stan and Unlucky Ursula.
Both start with $1,000,000, both withdraw $50,000 a year (5% initial rate), and both see an average return of 5% over five years. The only difference is the order of those returns.

The "Sequence of Returns" Showdown​

YearMarket ReturnStan's Balance (Good Start)Ursula's Balance (Bad Start)
Start$1,000,000$1,000,000
Year 1Stan +15% / Ursula -15%$1,100,000$800,000
Year 2+10%$1,160,000$830,000
Year 3+5%$1,168,000$821,500
Year 4-10%$1,001,200$689,350
Year 5Stan -15% / Ursula +15%$801,020$742,752
Note: Calculations assume the withdrawal is taken at the end of the year for simplicity.

The Damage Assessment​

Even though the market performed identically over the 5-year period for both people:
  • Stan is in great shape. Even after a rough Year 4 and 5, he still has over 80% of his original nest egg.
  • Ursula is in a "death spiral." Because she had to pull out $50,000 when her portfolio was already crashing in Year 1, she had less money left to catch the recovery in Year 5. She is nearly $60,000 poorer than Stan, despite the same average market performance.

The "Feedback Loop" Problem​

This is why the 4% rule is so conservative. If Ursula had been withdrawing 7% ($70k), her portfolio would have been cannibalized so quickly in those first two years that she might never have recovered, regardless of how well the market did later.
In math terms, the formula for your remaining balance $B$ after a year with return $r$ and withdrawal $W$ looks like this:
$$B_{new} = B_{old}(1 + r) - W$$
When $r$ is negative in the early years, the subtraction of $W$ (the withdrawal) happens against a shrinking base, compounding the loss.
 
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DR investing advice gets low marks on this site and others. He used to stay in his lane.
Ditto. Partly do to good timing, I believe, and my spending levels are higher than the OP. The last eight years have been good. But it's hard to lose the jitters about your plan until you actually get through a few years.
I have been invested only in bond OEFs since retirement.
Stocks made me almost nothing.
 
Dave Ramsey simply assumes a flat 10% return on everything. Nothing is ever flat. Just keep doing what your doing since your results look good.
 
The amount of misinformation about DR in here is staggering. I have never followed his investment advice but after listening to him for over 30 years as entertainment (I like watching train wrecks) I would say with 100% certainty that the haters don't have a clue what they are talking about.
 
Not a Dave Ramsay fan for a few reasons but randomly stumbled on a recent segment from his show that resonated with me.

A guest called in my age range- mid 60s - states he has 3.5M in assets - still works - and questioning whether he can retire. The guy claimed his work income at 170k/year.
Dave's bottom line is, with those assets, he should 'easily 'be earning 350k/year off the PF alone. Double his work income, doing nothing so, no-brainer. Retire.
Dave casually suggests being mostly invested in 'growth mutual funds' to get that return and that "rarely has the market ever" seen under 5% return. "Maybe 2 years.."

I'm sitting at about 3.5M, age 68 next month. Still working and self-employed but
not pulling in an attorney's salary - more like 40k as a freelancer. Could be 100k+
but i don't want to work that much anymore.

Dividend income generated by my 50/50 AA PF ranges about $105-110k a year in the last few years. I still work some because i can take it or leave it and not stress about it. I also feel less stress having an allocation that's moderate, not all-in on growth funds - which apparently is way conservative in Dave's eyes, with his kind of presumptuous smug assurance that the dude is gonna make 350k/year off a 3.5M
PF and that's that.

I don't feel like tolerating a lot more risk..which to me, his default-recommendation assumes.
My question being...is 100k/year with a 3.5M/year PF overly protective. Should i consider a slightly more aggressive position. I'm not extravagant, COLA is low...
I own my modest 250k house, have no debt. I'll get an SS income of 34k/year if i take it this year, maybe 40k at 70 FWIW. My inclination is take it this year and invest most of it.

I think i'm ok in any event...this just made me question what backs up his slam-dunk certainty of 10% a year...and that anything less than 5%/year in an all-growth fund PF is a foolish expectation.
Be sure to get a written guarantee from Dave the investment genius. History is not on his side here. That advice borders on buffoonery.
 
The amount of misinformation about DR in here is staggering. I have never followed his investment advice but after listening to him for over 30 years as entertainment (I like watching train wrecks) I would say with 100% certainty that the haters don't have a clue what they are talking about.
I don't see any obvious misinformation about DR. Would you point to specific comments? I'm very interested.
 
I don't see any obvious misinformation about DR. Would you point to specific comments? I'm very interested.

Sure, I could do it for just about every negative comment on here (the post immediately above yours would be a prime example of the absolute DR Derangement Syndrome - "Be sure to get a written guarantee from Dave the investment genius. History is not on his side here. That advice borders on buffoonery.").
Dave has $100's of millions of real estate investments so yeah, he IS an Investment Genius. Anyway, I'll start at the top of the thread and work my way down for a few minutes...

Post #3 - Ignore most of Dave Ramsey... What does that mean. How about ignore most of target2019? Is that misinformation and complete non-sence, yes.

Post #5 - Dave Ramsey is the new Suze Orman 2.0. They're both entertainers, that's about it. Realestate mogul, entertainer, radio show owner (most people do not own their own show - this is a big deal), third biggest radio show on air, best selling book author, voted #1 business to work at for many many years in Nashville, philanthropist, etc.

Post #6 - Dave Ramsey is a fool, hawking high-fee actively managed mutual funds. Again, I've been listening for 30 years. I've NEVER heard him mention a specific fund. NEVER.

That is all the time I will spend on this since you cannot change the minds of people. I just wanted to state my case.
 
Dave has openly discussed American Funds or otherwise known as Capital Group.

I've never heard that. I just did a google search and it says he mentions them (uses reddit as the source) but I sure haven't heard it. If you have an episode number I would love to listen to what he says. Let me say it again in a different way to avoid confusion. I have been listening to Dave for 30 years. I would really like to know what funds he invests in but I have never heard him mention them. I have only heard him talk about funds in a general sense. "Good growth mutual funds with a 30 year track record" (or whatever he says). I've been wanting to test his claim that they outperform the S&P and get an average of 12%. What I am trying to point out is he does not get paid by Vanguard for pushing VOO or whatever. He doesn't mention fund names, just four classes of funds. I definitely disagree with the four, BTW.
 
I've never heard that. I just did a google search and it says he mentions them (uses reddit as the source) but I sure haven't heard it. If you have an episode number I would love to listen to what he says. Let me say it again in a different way to avoid confusion. I have been listening to Dave for 30 years. I would really like to know what funds he invests in but I have never heard him mention them. I have only heard him talk about funds in a general sense. "Good growth mutual funds with a 30 year track record" (or whatever he says). I've been wanting to test his claim that they outperform the S&P and get an average of 12%. What I am trying to point out is he does not get paid by Vanguard for pushing VOO or whatever. He doesn't mention fund names, just four classes of funds. I definitely disagree with the four, BTW.
It caught my ear when he mentioned American funds because I had my 401k in them. Online sources, not Reddit, back that up, but I am not going to argue about it. Not that big of a deal to me. Carry on.
 
Wait, so you have been listening to him for 30 years, and he claims there are "good" funds that outperform the S&P, and get 12% average returns, but he doesn't tell you what they are? So even an admirer would say that his claims are not testable? But we should NOT dismiss him as a mere entertainer?
 
Dave Ramsey usually thinks investments appreciate 12%/year (and even experienced financial planner can't figure out how he came up with this). But yes, you have enough to retire. Consider the fact the some of that will go to taxes each year but a drawdown of the funds plus your other income will be more than enough.
I waited until 70 to start SS a few months ago. I considered it a "annuity-like" asset that kept appreciating until then. If you are married to someone with a lower SS benefit, you also need to consider what their income would be if you died first.
Between that, my pension, and interest/dividends from my taxable accounts, I am bumping up against the first "step" for the IRMAA surcharge in 2 years (yes, COLAs between now and then were figured in but a nice problem to have.)
BUT, like you, I have very reasonable yearly expenses. So this means even with a few awesome trips every year, I will not need to worry about money.
Right now, most likely anything you earn will be going to heirs because you will not be able to spend everything. So maybe consider becoming a volunteer to help others in your town start your own small business (score.org). Your knowledge is more valuable than you think and may help many become entrepreneurs.
 
The basic approach is to never listen to just one "talking head", podcast, book, or any other source for personal finance advice. They all will be right about some things, and wrong about some things. When in polite company various names come up, about whom someone many be following, I tend to ask "That is interesting. Who else are you listening to for personal finance advice?" If the discussion goes further I just recommend the multiple sources approach.
 
Not a Dave Ramsay fan for a few reasons but randomly stumbled on a recent segment from his show that resonated with me.

A guest called in my age range- mid 60s - states he has 3.5M in assets - still works - and questioning whether he can retire. The guy claimed his work income at 170k/year.
Dave's bottom line is, with those assets, he should 'easily 'be earning 350k/year off the PF alone. Double his work income, doing nothing so, no-brainer. Retire.
Dave casually suggests being mostly invested in 'growth mutual funds' to get that return and that "rarely has the market ever" seen under 5% return. "Maybe 2 years.."

I'm sitting at about 3.5M, age 68 next month. Still working and self-employed but
not pulling in an attorney's salary - more like 40k as a freelancer. Could be 100k+
but i don't want to work that much anymore.

Dividend income generated by my 50/50 AA PF ranges about $105-110k a year in the last few years. I still work some because i can take it or leave it and not stress about it. I also feel less stress having an allocation that's moderate, not all-in on growth funds - which apparently is way conservative in Dave's eyes, with his kind of presumptuous smug assurance that the dude is gonna make 350k/year off a 3.5M
PF and that's that.

I don't feel like tolerating a lot more risk..which to me, his default-recommendation assumes.
My question being...is 100k/year with a 3.5M/year PF overly protective. Should i consider a slightly more aggressive position. I'm not extravagant, COLA is low...
I own my modest 250k house, have no debt. I'll get an SS income of 34k/year if i take it this year, maybe 40k at 70 FWIW. My inclination is take it this year and invest most of it.

I think i'm ok in any event...this just made me question what backs up his slam-dunk certainty of 10% a year...and that anything less than 5%/year in an all-growth fund PF is a foolish expectation.
I think Dave Ramsey offers some sound advice for those who are deeply in debt or dont know how to manage their finances. His investment advice, however, is questionable in many cases. I think you are doing just fine with a 3.5 million dollar PF and a paid for home with no debt. You have reached "critical mass" with enough assets to live on for the rest of your life. What would be the point of investing aggressively in growth stocks putting your savings at market risk?
I prefer the advice of John Bogle who issued the guideline of asset allocation percentages being "your age in bonds & cash". In so doing, I can sleep very soundly knowing I have just enough equity exposure to guard against inflation while the bulk of my savings is safely earning an adequate income for life.
 
Not a Dave Ramsay fan for a few reasons but randomly stumbled on a recent segment from his show that resonated with me.

A guest called in my age range- mid 60s - states he has 3.5M in assets - still works - and questioning whether he can retire. The guy claimed his work income at 170k/year.
Dave's bottom line is, with those assets, he should 'easily 'be earning 350k/year off the PF alone. Double his work income, doing nothing so, no-brainer. Retire.
Dave casually suggests being mostly invested in 'growth mutual funds' to get that return and that "rarely has the market ever" seen under 5% return. "Maybe 2 years.."

I'm sitting at about 3.5M, age 68 next month. Still working and self-employed but
not pulling in an attorney's salary - more like 40k as a freelancer. Could be 100k+
but i don't want to work that much anymore.

Dividend income generated by my 50/50 AA PF ranges about $105-110k a year in the last few years. I still work some because i can take it or leave it and not stress about it. I also feel less stress having an allocation that's moderate, not all-in on growth funds - which apparently is way conservative in Dave's eyes, with his kind of presumptuous smug assurance that the dude is gonna make 350k/year off a 3.5M
PF and that's that.

I don't feel like tolerating a lot more risk..which to me, his default-recommendation assumes.
My question being...is 100k/year with a 3.5M/year PF overly protective. Should i consider a slightly more aggressive position. I'm not extravagant, COLA is low...
I own my modest 250k house, have no debt. I'll get an SS income of 34k/year if i take it this year, maybe 40k at 70 FWIW. My inclination is take it this year and invest most of it.

I think i'm ok in any event...this just made me question what backs up his slam-dunk certainty of 10% a year...and that anything less than 5%/year in an all-growth fund PF is a foolish expectation.
You should really explore fixed income / bond funds and related products. Trying to construct an income portfolio from equity products forces you to bear equity risk for relatively low cash flows when, in retirement with 3.5MM, growth more growth has higher risk and limited utility.
Regards, Dick
 
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