Rolling the dice on career with re-org layoffs

[camfused]

^^^ This still not going to stop them letting you go or trying to get you to quit in frustration. Your win game is not do what they are trying to get you to do.

 

[Keim]

^^^ This still not going to stop them letting you go or trying to get you to quit in frustration. Your win game is not do what they are trying to get you to do.

I think his only "win" is to ha e as much "fun" as he can until shown the door.

 

[chemEguy]

I don’t intend to quit. So that’s out.

Every time the security gate swings open I hear the cash register ring.

 

[SecretlyFI]

My suspicion is that from the beginning (probably a couple years ago) this was a toxic personality clash.

 

[Koolau]

So many years ago now, it's hard to believe, but I had a Senior Staff person who took a sincere personal dislike to me. I had w*rked on a project for him and he insisted that I perform the w*rk according to his protocol, using the exact reference sample he provided to me. He was searching for impurities in samples that his team was producing in hopes of incorporating his new method into production. It would have been a huge win for him, had it w*rked.

I was a new lower-level staff person at the time. Once I had begun the w*rk I quickly realized (and documented) that the reference sample he had given to me was loaded with the very impurity he wanted to quantify. Long story short, I showed him this info and he got angry with me because he had screwed up.

Fast forward a few years. This same guy unfortunately became my Dept. head. My direct supervisor warned me that this guy was gunning for me. Before he could "get me" he got a better j*b at Corporate. I had a few dealings with him after that and I always kept it cordial, but it was clear that he still hated my guts.

One fine morning, the guy who had been cheating on his wife with another empl*yee was scurrying back to Corporate after a week-end tryst. He stacked up his BMW on the interstate in the early morning while still over the legal alcohol limit. He was "invited" to resign.

Heaven help me but I did a mental happy dance upon hearing the news (which was THE talk of our plant site - and of Corporate too). I still feel guilty for enjoying his fall from grace. We are supposed to forgive people and I guess I failed at that act of grace.

 

[chemEguy]

My suspicion is that from the beginning (probably a couple years ago) this was a toxic personality clash.

Well, I interviewed my manager a number of years back when he interviewed with our group. I advocated for him because I thought it was a good fit. After he was promoted to be the manager, he suddenly knew more than me in meetings, talked over me, and micromanaged my work. So no, none of that really sat very well.

 

[mystang52]

I feel compelled to share with all of you how this entire ridiculous story continues to carry on.

Communication with my manager is primarily by email now. The iciness is palpable, love it. Anyway, I’ve been trying to get information on something he recently completed as I and another engineer agreed that it should be the basis for something I’m actively supporting (keeping it intentionally vague here).

There’s been a reluctance on his part to simply outright share all of the info. So I went to another person that received his completed work and requested he forward it back to me, which that person happily did. With that, I was able to cross reference two different files he put together as part of my effort to understand what was done and ensure there’s consistency in what I’m doing.

Jeebus Cripes.

Here’s what I quickly surmised…

- one of the items he called out in my performance plan was not documenting basis of assumptions. Guess what wasn’t documented in his file?

- another item I got called on was producing deliverables with errors that went to clients…guess what I found two minutes into reading his file?

- and on the day of the performance plan ambush? He emailed me that morning letting me know that a document I had produced for another team seemed to be received as “underwhelming” and to fix it. Guess what that POS did? Used MY EXACT TEMPLATE himself a few weeks prior for this other project I’m trying to pull info on with almost no changes and submitted it.

Strategy?

I’ve been sending one off politely worded emails to him with single questions probing what was done. Yes, I’m attempting to document him doing all the same stuff he listed out on my performance plan.

Objective? I have no idea. But I know substandard work when I see it and the pot just met the kettle. Oh, we’re documenting, are we ever.

WADR your manager's possible shortcomings have zero effect on whether you get let go. That documentation may help in event you hire a lawyer, after the fact.

 

[CO-guy]

Nobody ever does!

It was a hard lesson to learn. Definitely a "kill the messenger" situation.

The only upside was that I felt less bad when their positions were cut and they were forced to relocate with their families. ("Bet you believe me now!")

 

[Koolau]

It was a hard lesson to learn. Definitely a "kill the messenger" situation.

The only upside was that I felt less bad when their positions were cut and they were forced to relocate with their families. ("Bet you believe me now!")

My biggest "I told you so" was when Megacorp changed the vacation plan. It was "sold" to the empl*yees as a benefit. In reality, it was designed to save the company $100 million on a one time basis. In essence, vacation was now earned in the year of w*rk (rather than being earned for the next year). Sounds great! But the real kicker which was not mentioned was that any saved vacation was lost. I lost a month of saved vacation.

I told my boss (THE number 1 company man!) that the company was actually taking away benefits from empl*yees - not giving them a new-and-improved-benefit. He adamantly disputed my "theory." I told him where to look in the proposal and when he did, he came back to me and apologized. "You were right and I was wrong."

How often does that happen?

 

[chemEguy]

WADR your manager's possible shortcomings have zero effect on whether you get let go. That documentation may help in event you hire a lawyer, after the fact.

100% correct. No disputing that point.

But I feel strangely vindicated in seeing just how poorly his own work is getting done.

 

[CO-guy]

^^^ This still not going to stop them letting you go or trying to get you to quit in frustration. Your win game is not do what they are trying to get you to do.

I think @chemEguy is already winning and has a plan to keep doing so.

 

[chemEguy]

I think @chemEguy is already winning and has a plan to keep doing so.

Thanks, but don’t give me too much credit. I’m sailing uncharted waters right now. I was put on a performance plan and saved myself by 1) hitting the measured objectives and 2) not pulling punches and using documented conversation to make my manager look like amateur hour with HR on copy. If this push came from his manager it can’t be a good look.

I’d be in a total panic if this was mid career or we were not where we are financially. But we are where we are financially and with that freedom, the playbook opens completely.

Again, I could be out tomorrow. I recognize that. And it’s cool…just pay the severance based on my decades of work here and not try to gin up a bunch of BS to avoid paying it. I also fully recognize that they may still find a way around it.

And so I continue to work here with the odd feeling of being someplace I’m not supposed to be…like falling through a glitch wall in a video game.

 

[RetiredHappy]

Are you in an at will employment state? If so you may be terminated for no cause.

 

[chemEguy]

Are you in an at will employment state? If so you may be terminated for no cause.

Yes. And that would be great. Because that, my friend, qualifies me for severance based on published HR policy.

That’s the entire crux of the whole shebang.

A no cause termination gives me 10 months of full salary. I’d sign that immediately, before Bob Cratchit dotted another ‘I’.

 

[CO-guy]

Thanks, but don’t give me too much credit. I’m sailing uncharted waters right now.

Of course, and to paraphrase George Costanza, "Those waters are angry, like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli."

IMO, you're in a good position in a difficult situation.

 

[chemEguy]

Of course, and to paraphrase George Costanza, "Those waters are angry, like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli."

IMO, you're in a good position in a difficult situation.

That was a great episode, the setup and payoff on the golf ball had an arc that ran the entire length of the episode.

Today was an epic day that had me probably more PO’d than when I had actually digested the content of the improvement plan. I vented to my wife but even that was insufficient to really convey how gobsmacked I was. Again, need to avoid the details. But when I saw his screw up I came closer than I’d like to admit to cut and pasting his condescending feedback to me right back in his face on how he can strive to improve so it doesn’t happen again.

I didn’t call him out exactly, I asked polite questions…led him to the water without letting on that’s what I was doing. Then he figured out what I had already determined. Now, this is where a leader would own the mistake and notify others while fixing it. His reply (by email) was to throw another engineer under the bus and offer a lame excuse.

But the best part of his excuse was that he had been in a tricky spot under certain circumstances. Oh? Really? You don’t say? You mean how on my plan you required me to do exactly that same under the same circumstances or lose my job? Like that?

 

[OddGuy]

Are you in an at will employment state? If so you may be terminated for no cause.

All states are will with the exception of Montana, which requires "good cause".

 

[Koolau]

All states are will with the exception of Montana, which requires "good cause".

There are, of course exceptions for things such as age discrimination. This one can be reasonably effective. At a minimum, many companies would rather keep someone than fight the discrimination suit and have the publicity. I've heard of situations where the mere threat was all that was required. YMMV

 

[chemEguy]

So here’s an update to my work saga / soap opera for your reading pleasure.

I’m fairly well convinced now that this was never about my performance. Early last week a colleague in the group was suddenly let go with no warning. He was probably the next highest paid though he was only with the company a few years. There’d have been no need to do the charade of a PIP because his severance entitlement for being let go without cause would have been quite low due to just a few years of service.

I think it adds up. Try to get rid of the highest paid engineer first with cause to avoid a very large severance. That failed. Just 6 weeks later the next highest paid engineer is dismissed and they just absorb a small severance payout.

I do feel bad about the situation. I know my colleague was in a different life phase than me and was likely let go because I fought back, even though I’m ready to be done.

But ultimately I think this is on the company. They could have just paid my severance instead of the route they took to save a few bucks. I fought back because of what I perceived as unfair treatment and gross misc-characterization of my work.

So there you go. Feels slimy to me.

 

[marko]

Next time HR or management wants to "chat", start the conversation with "Well, I was talking to my attorney about this and......."

Even if it isn't true, I've seen it shut things down for a while. You'd be surprised.
(I was management on the receiving end)

My brother was being hassled regularly until one day he said "do I have to call my lawyer?" That was the end of it.

 

[Koolau]

So here’s an update to my work saga / soap opera for your reading pleasure.

I’m fairly well convinced now that this was never about my performance. Early last week a colleague in the group was suddenly let go with no warning. He was probably the next highest paid though he was only with the company a few years. There’d have been no need to do the charade of a PIP because his severance entitlement for being let go without cause would have been quite low due to just a few years of service.

I think it adds up. Try to get rid of the highest paid engineer first with cause to avoid a very large severance. That failed. Just 6 weeks later the next highest paid engineer is dismissed and they just absorb a small severance payout.

I do feel bad about the situation. I know my colleague was in a different life phase than me and was likely let go because I fought back, even though I’m ready to be done.

But ultimately I think this is on the company. They could have just paid my severance instead of the route they took to save a few bucks. I fought back because of what I perceived as unfair treatment and gross misc-characterization of my work.

So there you go. Feels slimy to me.

Agree. And slimy is the right word. Pretty likely that collusion at the upper level was involved. That's not easy to prove, but if proven, it raises the stakes on compensatory and punitive damages if it proceeds to a law suit.

All the best to you.

 

[latexman]

Agree. And slimy is the right word. Pretty likely that collusion at the upper level was involved. That's not easy to prove, but if proven, it raises the stakes on compensatory and punitive damages if it proceeds to a law suit.

All the best to you.

OTOH, I recall a co-worker named Tom that was laid off before he was ready to retire during a “right sizing”. At the farewell celebration, his boss, she, gave him a hug. Well, Tom sued the company for sexual harassment and age discrimination!