Seriously??? For a $400 piece of gutter??? Any lawyers on here?

[Purslane]

I want to replace a small section of gutters on my house. The total cost of the job is only $412. I got a 4 page contract to sign, mostly standard, although annoying. But the last page---I couldn't believe. I am not a lawyer, and I am hoping there are some on this forum. The way I read this is even after I pay $412 to the company for the work, the laborers, or indeed the gutter supply store, can put a lien on MY property if the company doesn't pay ITS bills.

Am I reading this wrong

 

[aja8888]

Yep, in Ca a subcontractor that doesn't get paid can put a lien on your house. It happened to me when installing a pool in CA in 1989. The pool company did not pay the electrician and he put a $1,200 lien on my property.

 

[pacergal]

This is pretty standard, as I understand.
When we updated our kitchen and bathrooms years ago, that was part of the contracts we signed.
This is why it is important to research anyone you hire! Make sure they are good with BBB and licensing board and have very good references.

 

[Purslane]

This is pretty standard, as I understand.
When we updated our kitchen and bathrooms years ago, that was part of the contracts we signed.
This is why it is important to research anyone you hire! Make sure they are good with BBB and licensing board and have very good references.

Better business A+ rating, been in business 11 years. All (mostly) good reviews. I don't know what more I can do but when I think I might need a lawyer to review a contract for a small gutter job, it makes me think I need to keep on looking. Even good businesses behave badly at times. The contract seems exceptionally one side IMHO.

 

[Purslane]

Yep, in Ca a subcontractor that doesn't get paid can put a lien on your house. It happened to me when installing a pool in CA in 1989. The pool company did not pay the electrician and he put a $1,200 lien on my property.

That is exactly what I am worried about and there is no way for me to know which subcontractor was paid and which was not. This is for an Ark job but would work the same as CA I am sure. I have called another company. Stay tuned.

So you had to pay an additional $1,200 to the electrician that you had already paid to the pool contractor? Did you find out about this after the lien was placed or did the electrician tell you he wasn't paid? What did you do about all that? How did it all work out?

And rhetorical question I am sure, but why doesn't the subcontractor just go after the contractor instead of the homeowner, who actually did pay the bill?

 

[Sunset]

Standard in a lot of places.
Hold back 10% or final payment and insist on the list of suppliers used and subcontractors, and check with them.
Or for $4xx take the risk of paying twice.

 

[Sunset]

.....

And rhetorical question I am sure, but why doesn't the subcontractor just go after the contractor instead of the homeowner, who actually did pay the bill?

I believe its because:
subcontractor can attach a lien to the homeowner house, something of value. Has to be paid off prior to selling/transfer of property. Guaranteed payment.

The contractor can go bankrupt wiping out all money owed, and the subcontractor cannot put a lien on anything of the contractors.

 

[aja8888]

That is exactly what I am worried about and there is no way for me to know which subcontractor was paid and which was not. This is for an Ark job but would work the same as CA I am sure. I have called another company. Stay tuned.

So you had to pay an additional $1,200 to the electrician that you had already paid to the pool contractor? Did you find out about this after the lien was placed or did the electrician tell you he wasn't paid? What did you do about all that? How did it all work out?

And rhetorical question I am sure, but why doesn't the subcontractor just go after the contractor instead of the homeowner, who actually did pay the bill?

I went to the pool contractor's office and waited for him to show up. When he did, I told him I would have his knees broken if stiffed the electrician. He paid him in a week. I then fired the pool contractor (Blue Haven, at the time) and subbed out the rest of the work myself, which included gunnite, plumbing completion, concrete decking, etc, and paid those subs at completion.

I was a lot younger and brazen then, and a good engineer.

 

[Jerry1]

Have the contractor sign a waiver of lien and certify that all subcontractors, if any used, are identified and also sign the waiver of lien. Personally, I wouldn't worry about it for $400 but I'm not you. The waiver will protect you.

 

[Purslane]

That is exactly what I am worried about and there is no way for me to know which subcontractor was paid and which was not. This is for an Ark job but would work the same as CA I am sure. I have called another company. Stay tuned.

So you had to pay an additional $1,200 to the electrician that you had already paid to the pool contractor? Did you find out about this after the lien was placed or did the electrician tell you he wasn't paid? What did you do about all that? How did it all work out?

I went to the pool contractor's office and waited for him to show up. When he did, I told him I would have his knees broken if stiffed the electrician. He paid him in a week. I then fired the pool contractor (Blue Haven, at the time) and subbed out the rest of the work myself, which included gunnite, plumbing completion, concrete decking, etc, and paid those subs at completion.

I was a lot younger and brazen then, and a good engineer.

My hat is off to you. The world was different back then.

 

[Dash man]

I always try to find companies that don’t sub out the work. Not always possible, but lately I’ve been fortunate.

 

[frank05]

Always make sure liens are removed after the work is completed. Had a sub that was lazy and didn’t notify the county.

 

[Purslane]

Always make sure liens are removed after the work is completed. Had a sub that was lazy and didn’t notify the county.

OMG would not have thought of that.

 

[Jerry1]

Always make sure liens are removed after the work is completed. Had a sub that was lazy and didn’t notify the county.

Not sure why there would be a lien before the work is completed. Contractors don’t put prospective liens on property. They do it after the fact when they realize/determine that they’re not getting paid.

On a big contract where there is money being loaned, there would be a prospective lien, but I don’t think that would happen for $400.

 

[SecondCor521]

FWIW, my son has a car detailing business. He regularly does $500 to $1K worth of work on customers' cars. He could go through the paperwork to essentially put a mechanic's lien on the cars to ensure payment, but he chooses not to because that's not how he wants to run his business. Out of all of his clients I think only one has tried to stiff him, and he worked it out on an interpersonal level with that person - took a while and some effort but I think he got paid. He has a good enough reputation and the market is large enough so he can fire customers if needed, and I think he'd rather be stiffed occasionally than do paperwork with everyone.

 

[Koolau]

I went to the pool contractor's office and waited for him to show up. When he did, I told him I would have his knees broken if stiffed the electrician. He paid him in a week. I then fired the pool contractor (Blue Haven, at the time) and subbed out the rest of the work myself, which included gunnite, plumbing completion, concrete decking, etc, and paid those subs at completion.

I was a lot younger and brazen then, and a good engineer.

Something very satisfying in the way you handled the pool contractor. Having said that, in some states, your solution would be considered a felony. Just sayin' it's not for everyone or every situation.

 

[DJRR]

Have the contractor sign a waiver of lien and certify that all subcontractors, if any used, are identified and also sign the waiver of lien. Personally, I wouldn't worry about it for $400 but I'm not you. The waiver will protect you.

That won't protect you either unless you have a waiver from the subcontractor or supply house. You will just have a claim against the contractor, which you already have. You can also get a paid invoice for all materials, but again I have seen people lie and produce fake invoices. There is usually a statute time to claim - like 90 days from last visit to the property so you can keep track of who comes and when and manage that and pay based on that.

For $400 it is probably overkill but some people manage projects well over $100k and it is a very real issue if you contractor goes under/cannot pay. Then you have to really manage it - know who provided your framing lumber and get them to sign a release of lien before you pay or you potentially pay for framing lumber 2x if you contractor has money problems, etc. You can also get a surety bond, but that has its own problems. Best plan is probably independent references and audited financial statements, but most small companies don't have that.

 

[marko]

Neighbor had this happen over solar panels.

 

[SnowballCamper]

Isn't this why we're supposed to find a bonded contractor? The bond pays the subs, so that they can't lein your house...

 

[Koolau]

Isn't this why we're supposed to find a bonded contractor? The bond pays the subs, so that they can't lein your house...

Yeah, it's either that or find a handyman (missing a digit or two) who you pay in cash. No contract. No insurance. No recourse.

 

[Purslane]

I believe its because:
subcontractor can attach a lien to the homeowner house, something of value. Has to be paid off prior to selling/transfer of property. Guaranteed payment.

The contractor can go bankrupt wiping out all money owed, and the subcontractor cannot put a lien on anything of the contractors.

You are prob right but it is very unfair.

 

[Purslane]

Have the contractor sign a waiver of lien and certify that all subcontractors, if any used, are identified and also sign the waiver of lien. Personally, I wouldn't worry about it for $400 but I'm not you. The waiver will protect you.

I hope I can just ask them to take it off. It is $400 for goodness sake! I am happy to pay them half up front.
But this will make a good argument. If they need protection, then so do I.

 

[Purslane]

Yeah, it's either that or find a handyman (missing a digit or two) who you pay in cash. No contract. No insurance. No recourse.

I think that was called the good old days, when there were good people who could do small jobs and it mostly worked out.
If it was a cheap house I might be willing to try the handyman approach, but it is not. Sigh.

 

[MarieIG]

I think that was called the good old days, when there were good people who could do small jobs and it mostly worked out.
If it was a cheap house I might be willing to try the handyman approach, but it is not. Sigh.

I don't know anything about CA law, but I have to wonder: What is this contractor providing you that a handyman does not? Does he have his own employees and will the work be performed by an employee as opposed to a mystery subcontractor? If so, let the contract state that the work will be performed by an employee of the contractor. Liens are only part of the story. What if the laborer places his/ her ladder in a rabbit hole and takes a tumble? That could mean a lot more than a $400 lien. Has the contractor provided a some additional clauses in the contract that that inure to your benefit, i.e. that the contractor is fully responsible for the means and methods of the work, that he will provide equipment and supplies, that he carriers workers' compensation coverage for the employee performing the work, that he will have you named as an additional insured on his (liability) policy, that there will be no workers' exclusions on said liability policy, that he will defend and indemnify you against any claims arising in full or in part out of the work to the fullest extent of the law, etc.?

I required an indemnification/ insurance clause, etc. by the neighbor's tree contractor before I would agree to permit him to remove limbs from one of my trees. And when my real estate broker tried to slip a defense and indemnification clause to its benefit into the RE contract - I had that clause removed before I would sign the contract.

In this case, the attached notice may just be putting you on notice of existing local laws, as opposed to altering your rights but, I don't know this.

 

[MarieIG]

Neighbor had this happen over solar panels.

That had to have been upsetting. Much pricier than a gutter repair.