Seriously??? For a $400 piece of gutter??? Any lawyers on here?

[Purslane]

I don't know anything about CA law, but I have to wonder: What is this contractor providing you that a handyman does not? Does he have his own employees and will the work be performed by an employee as opposed to a mystery subcontractor? If so, let the contract state that the work will be performed by an employee of the contractor. Liens are only part of the story. What if the laborer places his/ her ladder in a rabbit hole and takes a tumble? That could mean a lot more than a $400 lien. Has the contractor provided a some additional clauses in the contract that that inure to your benefit, i.e. that the contractor is fully responsible for the means and methods of the work, that he will provide equipment and supplies, that he carriers workers' compensation coverage for the employee performing the work, that he will have you named as an additional insured on his (liability) policy, that there will be no workers' exclusions on said liability policy, that he will defend and indemnify you against any claims arising in full or in part out of the work to the fullest extent of the law, etc.?

I required an indemnification/ insurance clause, etc. by the neighbor's tree contractor before I would agree to permit him to remove limbs from one of my trees. And when my real estate broker tried to slip a defense and indemnification clause to its benefit into the RE contract - I had that clause removed before I would sign the contract.

In this case, the attached notice may just be putting you on notice of existing local laws, as opposed to altering your rights but, I don't know this.

I like the way you think. These are exactly the things I worry about--and more.
Very cool you got the real estate broker to change the contract to your liking. I might need some tips on that in the next year or so.
Are you sure you don't play a lawyer on TV?

 

[marko]

That had to have been upsetting. Much pricier than a gutter repair.

Yeah. The contractor had filed for bankruptcy but finally straightened it out but I had never heard of this before. Took about 6 months.

 

[JoeWras]

That had to have been upsetting. Much pricier than a gutter repair.

Solar panel installers have multiplied in recent years due to the incentives. There are a lot who put effort into getting work, but put very little effort into their business. Or are just plain shady to begin with. When money flows, the unscrupulous follow.

Be very careful with solar panel installations.

 

[Aerides]

Not sure why there would be a lien before the work is completed. Contractors don’t put prospective liens on property. They do it after the fact when they realize/determine that they’re not getting paid.

On a big contract where there is money being loaned, there would be a prospective lien, but I don’t think that would happen for $400.

Yeah for $400 it's not worth the paperwork.

But my sister found out the hard way that her roofing co put a lien on her house (in December) for a roof that isn't starting work until February.... She was getting a heloc and then that got stopped because of the lien. She worked it out but was annoyed they hadn't made it clear in advance.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

You need one of these, a Lien Waver Form for them to sign before the work is done. It is common in Florida. In fact places like Lowes and Home Depot have it in their contract before one agrees to the work. I found this out when we had a couple of windows replaced.

 

[427Vette]

This situation is usually handled with a simple lien waiver. As soon as the work is done you have the contractor sign the lien waiver as you hand him the check.

 

[427Vette]

FWIW, my son has a car detailing business. He regularly does $500 to $1K worth of work on customers' cars. He could go through the paperwork to essentially put a mechanic's lien on the cars to ensure payment, but he chooses not to because that's not how he wants to run his business. Out of all of his clients I think only one has tried to stiff him, and he worked it out on an interpersonal level with that person - took a while and some effort but I think he got paid. He has a good enough reputation and the market is large enough so he can fire customers if needed, and I think he'd rather be stiffed occasionally than do paperwork with everyone.

I would think this is pretty much the definition of a mechanics lien. He has their vehicle why give it to them if they don’t pay him first?

 

[Kings over Queens]

Better business A+ rating, been in business 11 years. All (mostly) good reviews. I don't know what more I can do but when I think I might need a lawyer to review a contract for a small gutter job, it makes me think I need to keep on looking. Even good businesses behave badly at times. The contract seems exceptionally one side IMHO.

All in the name of consumer protection. I'd bet that is a standard boiler plate document approved by the state for use by licensed home improvement contractors.

 

[Kings over Queens]

Isn't this why we're supposed to find a bonded contractor? The bond pays the subs, so that they can't lein your house...

Labor and Material bonds are project specific, as are performance bonds.

L&M provides that subs and supply houses get paid, Performance means the job get completed.

I'm not sure that the typical "home improvement contractor license bond" includes making sure that the contractor pays a sub or supply house.

 

[Rianne]

Are you notified when a lien is put on your house? I've heard stories where homeowners did not know there was a lien on their house until they went to sell it. I'd be concerned about the relationship between the contractor and subcontractor. As was mentioned above, know every subcontractor and make sure they sign a waiver. And just because a worker has a t-shirt, a clipboard, and a card does not mean he/she is affiliated with that company. We were fooled by someone saying he was employed by the city, was doing work on our road in front of our house. He was not, he just delivered cement. We gave him a small job and he asked for cash. Never heard from him again. The card he gave us was bogus. We're just happy it was a small job.

 

[Purslane]

You need one of these, a Lien Waver Form for them to sign before the work is done. It is common in Florida. In fact places like Lowes and Home Depot have it in their contract before one agrees to the work. I found this out when we had a couple of windows replaced.

View attachment 54056

THANK YOU!

 

[Scrapr]

You need one of these, a Lien Waver Form for them to sign before the work is done. It is common in Florida. In fact places like Lowes and Home Depot have it in their contract before one agrees to the work. I found this out when we had a couple of windows replaced.

View attachment 54056

I have only skimmed this thread. as a subcontractor for 30 years we sent out notice of right to a lien to affected property owners.I believe this is what OP received. Typically for high dollar jobs. The small jobs (like OP) we took our chances with the GC. If they stiffed us we would not work for them until paid. I would write off 1% of invoices per year. During the Great recession we wrote off up to 3%.

When the job was done we would sign the Waivers. Notarized at the bank.

 

[SecondCor521]

I would think this is pretty much the definition of a mechanics lien. He has their vehicle why give it to them if they don’t pay him first?

Going from memory:

Our state law requires the mechanic to provide a written estimate and work to be done and obtain the customer's signature on that paperwork before doing the job in order to successfully place an enforceable mechanic's lien.

If you don't meet those requirements, then the customer - in theory - could retrieve their car without paying, and the only possible recourse I know of then might be a civil suit - costing possibly more than the job was worth and a hassle regardless.

My son knows this and elects to forego the up front paperwork as a business decision.

 

[Jerry1]

Are you notified when a lien is put on your house? I've heard stories where homeowners did not know there was a lien on their house until they went to sell it.

Our county has a service that you sign up for and if anything is filed on your house, you get an alert. I think it was done in response to people stealing houses by fraudulently transferring the title but it would work for any activity that gets filed against your title.

 

[Purslane]

I have only skimmed this thread. as a subcontractor for 30 years we sent out notice of right to a lien to affected property owners.I believe this is what OP received. Typically for high dollar jobs. The small jobs (like OP) we took our chances with the GC. If they stiffed us we would not work for them until paid. I would write off 1% of invoices per year. During the Great recession we wrote off up to 3%.

When the job was done we would sign the Waivers. Notarized at the bank.

Thank you for the SC perspective. Because the dollar amount is so small the notice seems entirely unnecessary. I am getting another estimate for work and will see if this new person attaches a lien notification. I would be happy to pay a % up front and will offer that in lieu of signing a lien notice if possible.

 

[Sunset]

... I would be happy to pay a % up front and will offer that in lieu of signing a lien notice if possible.

But then you are risking losing the $400, because you pay and the contractor leaves....... work not done.
Then you pay someone else $400 to get job done, so job now totals $800.

If instead, you use the contractor and pay him the $400, then a subcontractor says he wasn't paid and you own $200, pay him and lien is off. Job is done for total $600.

Frankly, you can hold back $50->$100 from the $400 until he gives you the lien certificate. Since he wants to be so picky.

 

[ponyboy]

Glad I live in an area where I've never heard of anyone having to sign anything like this. I'm sure it exists depending on what outfit you go with.

My father used to do handy work stuff on the side. Think roofing, installing new door, building addition on house...pretty much anything with lumber was his bread and butter. He wouldn't touch electrical or plumbing for someone else though. He was never insured, bonded, whatever these contractors have now. He had as much work or as little as possible. Never advertised, all word of mouth. He was never stiffed. Guess times have changed.

I wouldn't even entertain a contractor that wanted me to sign a contract for $400. I would have laughed in their face. Those are the same contractors who do sub par work and drive away in an $80k truck with their company name and logo plastered on the side. Hard pass.

 

[427Vette]

I wouldn't even entertain a contractor that wanted me to sign a contract for $400. I would have laughed in their face. Those are the same contractors who do sub par work and drive away in an $80k truck with their company name and logo plastered on the side. Hard pass.

Or perhaps it is a small contractor who got sick of getting beat out of his money by customers who decided they didn’t want to pay him. He was probably instructed by someone to get a contract signed on every job so he had a leg to stand on if something happened.

Would it be better if a contractor pulled into your driveway driving a rusted out oil leaking 40 year old pickup that has a bad muffler and a cardboard sign in the window? I’ve never understood what vehicle that someone drives being indicative of anything.

 

[ponyboy]

Or perhaps it is a small contractor who got sick of getting beat out of his money by customers who decided they didn’t want to pay him. He was probably instructed by someone to get a contract signed on every job so he had a leg to stand on if something happened.

Would it be better if a contractor pulled into your driveway driving a rusted out oil leaking 40 year old pickup that has a bad muffler and a cardboard sign in the window? I’ve never understood what vehicle that someone drives being indicative of anything.

Depends. If the guy actually doing the work is the one driving the $80k truck, it's not quite as bad. If the person driving the truck is a the boss and nothing more than a salesman, they can take the train. I have more respect for a boss who gets in the trenches with his workers than one that does not. Fortunately, we have two smaller businesses still around that my father had a great relationship with. When the time comes that we need work done, siding, roof, deck...I already know who I'm calling.

We had our kitchen redone a couple years ago. I did everything except hang the cabinets. Wanted a pro for that...spent too much on them to screw that up. The owner of the company came, modest truck. No name on it. He knocked it out in a day. Top notch. He was more expensive than other contractors but worth every penny. Take my money! When he wrapped up we asked him if we could write a review or something online to promote him. He asked us not to since they had too much work already. He never advertised either. Didn't have to sign some weird lien papers or contract. He only wanted payment upon completion. Perfect.

I feel for people who don't know contractors directly. It's a mine field out there.

 

[Purslane]

Depends. If the guy actually doing the work is the one driving the $80k truck, it's not quite as bad. If the person driving the truck is a the boss and nothing more than a salesman, they can take the train. I have more respect for a boss who gets in the trenches with his workers than one that does not. Fortunately, we have two smaller businesses still around that my father had a great relationship with. When the time comes that we need work done, siding, roof, deck...I already know who I'm calling.

We had our kitchen redone a couple years ago. I did everything except hang the cabinets. Wanted a pro for that...spent too much on them to screw that up. The owner of the company came, modest truck. No name on it. He knocked it out in a day. Top notch. He was more expensive than other contractors but worth every penny. Take my money! When he wrapped up we asked him if we could write a review or something online to promote him. He asked us not to since they had too much work already. He never advertised either. Didn't have to sign some weird lien papers or contract. He only wanted payment upon completion. Perfect.

I feel for people who don't know contractors directly. It's a mine field out there.

It’s terrible. I miss the days when I knew exactly who I was going to call for a particular job and could expect them to provide a quality service for a fair price.