Sister In Law Spending Issues

[PatrickA5]

Guardianship and access to less money. Also, aren't purchases denied if you go over your credit limit? New car...is it safe for her to drive?

For some reason, her credit card company (US Bank) allows her to go over her credit limit every month. Often by $500 or more. I'm not sure why.

At this point, she can drive fine. She's never gotten lost. For the most part, someone that didn't know would never know she has Alzheimer's.

 

[youbet]

She is not very far along in her Alzheimer's. In fact, she drove out of town today to meet a friend. For the most part, you can't tell there is a memory problem, so I would think it would be much too early to try anything like that.

Then you're not likely to be able to have any real control over her spending beyond being a good example and perhaps some of the "arms length" tactics others have mentioned. Tough situation watching a relative chose a lifestyle not in their own best interest. Hang tough.

 

[PatrickA5]

You can request a lower credit limit on her credit card by contacting the card issuer.

That's an idea that I've considered. DW could probably legally do this since she has DPOA.

 

[PatrickA5]

My 47 year old son-in-law has been diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's and he is not allowed to drive anymore due to liability concerns. What is she doing with a new car?

Her doctor has not said that she can't drive. DW has been in the car with her driving lately and said she seems to drive fine and has no problems knowing where she is going. But, I haven't thought about the liability issues of her driving.

 

[PatrickA5]

Doesn’t disability automatically switch to social security at 65?

Try and look at her spending from an outsiders perspective.
$20,000 for pavement that she wanted doesn’t sound bad at all. $14,000 for a hot tub- lots of people do that. Is it sitting on the new pavement?
Amazon purchases don’t seem out of line to me.
You not agreeing with her spending doesn’t make it wrong and I highly doubt that you could get guardianship based on what you’ve said here.
I was a director for a health and human services department which included the public guardian office and adult protective services. Guardianship is typically a high bar.

Yes, I think you're right about the social security. I'm not sure she got any notice that it was switching over.

I agree with you that for most people spending that amount of money wouldn't be outrageous and for sure not approaching guardianship territory. Having said that, she is vulnerable to scams, etc. She has had to close her credit card multiple times lately due to getting involved with purchase that "were 90% off!" that to most people would be obvious scams.

 

[PatrickA5]

At least one other person agrees with me.

I think you, your wife and sister in law should sit down with a financial planner and jointly put together a detailed plan on how she’s going to pay for the house, utilities, maintenance along with a monthly spending plan for everything else. Probably a good idea to set aside an amount for unplanned items. I think everyone will be much happier once the plan is written down.

I agree. We need a plan.

 

[Sunset]

Either lower the credit limit or stop paying the CC in full each month. Sure there will be interest, but when she goes to spend too much on it , spending will be denied.

If she does not reign in the spending or someone else reigns it in, she will be broke in 5 years. My sister did this with an inheritance, blew it all like a drunk sailor. My Sister lied about her spending. She had control of her money.

Then I got to subsidize her stay in a home for years (or she would have been on the street).

Maybe she needs an annuity, a steady source of $$ monthly.

 

[Irishgirlyc58]

Yes, I think you're right about the social security. I'm not sure she got any notice that it was switching over.

I agree with you that for most people spending that amount of money wouldn't be outrageous and for sure not approaching guardianship territory. Having said that, she is vulnerable to scams, etc. She has had to close her credit card multiple times lately due to getting involved with purchase that "were 90% off!" that to most people would be obvious scams.

I think talking to her like Al18 suggested is a great idea. Use the scams as an example maybe. Explain to her that you want to protect her money so that she does have a little extra spending money for fun things.

Another thought-since she has switched from disability to Medicare - is she on a Medicare Advantage plan or did she get a medigap plan? Her options change when she goes on regular medicare. Just a thought.

 

[Aerides]

DW goes to all of her doctor's appointments, including the doctor that diagnosed her Alzheimer's.

Then the first thing to do is ensure this is brought up, in detail, with the doctor. I'd be more worried about a change in her brain than in her bank account.

 

[PatrickA5]

Either lower the credit limit or stop paying the CC in full each month. Sure there will be interest, but when she goes to spend too much on it , spending will be denied.

If she does not reign in the spending or someone else reigns it in, she will be broke in 5 years. My sister did this with an inheritance, blew it all like a drunk sailor. My Sister lied about her spending. She had control of her money.

Then I got to subsidize her stay in a home for years (or she would have been on the street).

Maybe she needs an annuity, a steady source of $$ monthly.

Your situation is what we're trying to avoid.

One good thing about SIL situation is I control what gets transferred to her checking account from her Fidelity accounts. She knows how much she has at Fidelity, but doesn't have access to it (she hasn't asked for it). All of her money is in money market funds. She has $2,000 come over each month. She also gets $1K in SS.

For years, she lived on disability and a small amount ($400) her father would give her every month. DW and I gave her money when big expenses came up, but she was very frugal. Even after getting the inheritance, she was initially pretty frugal. It wasn't until she got the diagnosis that she started the big spending.

I've considered an annuity, but she has other health issues. A MYGA might be an option. We also want to have a decent stash of money available to get her into a nice(ish) memory care facility when the time comes (but that could be a decade from now).

 

[PatrickA5]

I think talking to her like Al18 suggested is a great idea. Use the scams as an example maybe. Explain to her that you want to protect her money so that she does have a little extra spending money for fun things.

Another thought-since she has switched from disability to Medicare - is she on a Medicare Advantage plan or did she get a medigap plan? Her options change when she goes on regular medicare. Just a thought.

DW has had many, many discussions with her sister. Sometimes SIL will listen and take some of the things we say to heart (for a few days), but most of the time SIL will get mad and say "Nobody tells me what to do!" She's been this way for the 50 years I've known her. She's never had a job or a relationship that lasted more than a few months.

She is on regular Medicare and UHC/AARP plan G. We moved her over from an Advantage plan when she had the 6-month window to do so. Very glad we did that due to the other medical issues she's had recently.

 

[RetiredHappy]

Early onset AZ typically means she will last 4 to 8 years. Progression of the disease is faster the younger the diagnosis. It is unlikely that it will be a decade away when she goes into a memory care facility, possible of course. From our experience, we haven't come across one that lasted more than 5 years after the initial diagnosis, and 3 years is the norm. So be prepared. All the best.

 

[PatrickA5]

Then the first thing to do is ensure this is brought up, in detail, with the doctor. I'd be more worried about a change in her brain than in her bank account.

It's been brought up with her doctor. I wasn't there, but I don't think he really cares about these kind of issues.

Most people would never know she has Alzheimer's. To me, she doesn't act any different than she did 10 or 20 years ago. It wasn't until she found out about the diagnosis that she started the spending spree. I think she's convinced she doesn't have long to live, so might as well spend the money now.

 

[engineernerd]

Early onset AZ typically means she will last 4 to 8 years. Progression of the disease is faster the younger the diagnosis. It is unlikely that it will be a decade away when she goes into a memory care facility, possible of course. From our experience, we haven't come across one that lasted more than 5 years after the initial diagnosis, and 3 years is the norm. So be prepared. All the best.

I don't think that's right. The general consensus seems to be that people diagnosed in their 60s live longer than those diagnosed at later ages. Also that women live longer after diagnosis than men. And finally, that there is a fair amount of variability so even if women diagnosed in their early 60s live an average of x years, a particular woman diagnosed at that age might live twice as long.

Here's one information source:

Alzheimer’s / Dementia Life Expectancy Calculator

Understanding life expectancy with Alzheimer’s and dementias and how an accurate calculator can benefits families.

www.dementiacarecentral.com

They also have a lot of advice about caregiving elsewhere on their site.

 

[RetiredHappy]

I don't think that's right. The general consensus seems to be that people diagnosed in their 60s live longer than those diagnosed at later ages. Also that women live longer after diagnosis than men. And finally, that there is a fair amount of variability so even if women diagnosed in their early 60s live an average of x years, a particular woman diagnosed at that age might live twice as long.

Here's one information source:

Alzheimer’s / Dementia Life Expectancy Calculator

Understanding life expectancy with Alzheimer’s and dementias and how an accurate calculator can benefits families.

www.dementiacarecentral.com

They also have a lot of advice about caregiving elsewhere on their site.

The key word is Early Onset.

Does Early-Onset Alzheimer's Progress Faster? (Progression)

Does early-onset Alzheimer's progress faster? Learn about its stages, symptom speed, causes, and life expectancy in younger adults.

optoceutics.com

 

[Kings over Queens]

I think she's convinced she doesn't have long to live, so might as well spend the money now.

This comment, and the one earlier about the potential for a shortened life span gave me pause.

Perhaps a better way to manage this is to allow her to spend on "stuff" but limited to smaller items that won't drain her account.

I'll give you an example of how we managed my Father in Law after a brain injury. He always had his allotment of spending cash on him, and after his injury, my Mother in Law didn't give him any money. Not that he'd spend it, he just liked having it. She was worried he'd lose it, so I suggested to give him a money clip with a 20 on the outside a big pile of singles folded behind it. It made him happy and the risk of losing 30 or 40 dollars is no big deal in exchange for peace in the land. Same thing with the car fob. He can't drive anymore but when they leave he gets his folding money and car fob like any other day.

Just thinking out loud that there might be another compromise rather than cutting off her expenses.

 

[engineernerd]

The key word is Early Onset.

Does Early-Onset Alzheimer's Progress Faster? (Progression)

Does early-onset Alzheimer's progress faster? Learn about its stages, symptom speed, causes, and life expectancy in younger adults.

optoceutics.com

Opinions seem to differ:

https://www.bmj.com/content/388/bmj-2024-080636

Single

Wondering how long a family member with Alzheimer’s disease might live is a fraught concern for many families. The difficulties are often compounded by questi

www.alzinfo.org

Life expectancy in Alzheimer's disease (AD) - PubMed

Survival following a diagnosis of AD is important information for health planners, caregivers, patients, and their families. AD is associated with variable, but shortened life expectancy. Knowing the expected survival time may empower people with AD and their families, but clinicians currently...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It's important that most/all info sources agree that there is a lot of scatter in this data, so planning for the average is risky.

 

[PatrickA5]

The key word is Early Onset.

Does Early-Onset Alzheimer's Progress Faster? (Progression)

Does early-onset Alzheimer's progress faster? Learn about its stages, symptom speed, causes, and life expectancy in younger adults.

optoceutics.com

I should clarify that I don't know for sure that she was diagnosed with Early Onset. The scan that she had done showed the signs (plaque?) of someone with Alzheimers. Her Neurologist assumes she has it based on the scan and some of the memory issues she was having. When she would describe her memory issues to me, they were no different than what any person in their 60s would have. She hasn't exhibited any of the "obvious" signs that you read about (putting keys in the fridge, forgetting an everyday friend's name, getting lost, etc).

For decades, she has had problems concentrating. A lot of her "memory" issues stem from the fact that she doesn't/can't concentrate on what someone is saying - often distracted. So, when someone asks what the doctor said (as an example), she can rarely recall because it never gets into her memory to begin with. Perhaps it's getting a little worse - I don't know.

Today, she is 3 hours away meeting a friend for the first time she found on Facebook. She started talking to her a few weeks ago and they decided to meet up. Even staying in the same hotel room. Yuck! Anyway, this is something that she probably would have done at age 30 also, but she is ripe to be ripped off by someone. I've got all of her big money on lock down at Fidelity.

 

[Sojourner]

Early onset AZ typically means she will last 4 to 8 years. Progression of the disease is faster the younger the diagnosis. It is unlikely that it will be a decade away when she goes into a memory care facility, possible of course. From our experience, we haven't come across one that lasted more than 5 years after the initial diagnosis, and 3 years is the norm. So be prepared. All the best.

Agreed. Progression of AD is notably faster with early-onset cases (typically), however the number of years someone usually lives is often slightly greater in early-onset cases compared with late-onset. But this is actually bad news for those diagnosed with early-onset AD, since they may end up living longer in the later (truly horrible) stages of AD.

A quote from my AI chatbot summarizes this:

Multiple studies show younger‑onset cases tend to have more rapid cognitive and functional deterioration and shorter survival from symptom onset compared with age‑matched late‑onset cases when measured as rate of decline, though absolute years lived after diagnosis may still be longer because of younger baseline age.

 

[Al18]

That FB meetup sounds like a scam. Can you or your wife convince her to meet in a public space, such as a food court at a mall?

 

[engineernerd]

I should clarify that I don't know for sure that she was diagnosed with Early Onset. The scan that she had done showed the signs (plaque?) of someone with Alzheimers. Her Neurologist assumes she has it based on the scan and some of the memory issues she was having. When she would describe her memory issues to me, they were no different than what any person in their 60s would have. She hasn't exhibited any of the "obvious" signs that you read about (putting keys in the fridge, forgetting an everyday friend's name, getting lost, etc).

For decades, she has had problems concentrating. A lot of her "memory" issues stem from the fact that she doesn't/can't concentrate on what someone is saying - often distracted. So, when someone asks what the doctor said (as an example), she can rarely recall because it never gets into her memory to begin with. Perhaps it's getting a little worse - I don't know.

Today, she is 3 hours away meeting a friend for the first time she found on Facebook. She started talking to her a few weeks ago and they decided to meet up. Even staying in the same hotel room. Yuck! Anyway, this is something that she probably would have done at age 30 also, but she is ripe to be ripped off by someone. I've got all of her big money on lock down at Fidelity.

That diagnosis does sound uncertain, I've read that some people who never had dementia symptoms in life turn out to have a lot of plaques in their brains, discovered after death.

Good luck! Might be a good idea to consult an elder law attorney who specializes in dementia, just to get the lay of the legal landscape. For instance, what could you do if she withdraws the POA?

 

[Sojourner]

Today, she is 3 hours away meeting a friend for the first time she found on Facebook. She started talking to her a few weeks ago and they decided to meet up. Even staying in the same hotel room. Yuck! Anyway, this is something that she probably would have done at age 30 also, but she is ripe to be ripped off by someone. I've got all of her big money on lock down at Fidelity.

It sounds to me like she might have other psychological issues that could be confounding the AD symptoms. If so, that's an extremely tricky situation to navigate for anyone trying to help her. If it ultimately will fall on your DW's shoulders (and yours) to ensure she is well-cared for down the road when the AD has incapacitated her, then you should take steps now to safeguard whatever funds will be needed for this, before the brutal combination of AD and other psychiatric issues drain all the coffers. I like the idea mentioned upthread about a MYGA.

 

[reneeh63]

Spending does not sound unreasonable to me. Let it go.

$3,000 in two weeks at Amazon plus $600 in a single day on vitamins? And always over limit on credit card?! Yeah, she has a problem.

If DW has POA over some accounts and financials can a case be made to get tighter controls for this? How did she get her current POA?

 

[RetiredHappy]

I should clarify that I don't know for sure that she was diagnosed with Early Onset. The scan that she had done showed the signs (plaque?) of someone with Alzheimers. Her Neurologist assumes she has it based on the scan and some of the memory issues she was having. When she would describe her memory issues to me, they were no different than what any person in their 60s would have. She hasn't exhibited any of the "obvious" signs that you read about (putting keys in the fridge, forgetting an everyday friend's name, getting lost, etc).

For decades, she has had problems concentrating. A lot of her "memory" issues stem from the fact that she doesn't/can't concentrate on what someone is saying - often distracted. So, when someone asks what the doctor said (as an example), she can rarely recall because it never gets into her memory to begin with. Perhaps it's getting a little worse - I don't know.

Today, she is 3 hours away meeting a friend for the first time she found on Facebook. She started talking to her a few weeks ago and they decided to meet up. Even staying in the same hotel room. Yuck! Anyway, this is something that she probably would have done at age 30 also, but she is ripe to be ripped off by someone. I've got all of her big money on lock down at Fidelity.

She may not have AZ, early onset or not. My son who has ASD has memory issues since birth and we sometimes joke that he has young people's dementia. He also has difficulty in concentrating or recalling events because of memory issues. He got tested and was found to fall under 5th percentile for short term memory processing. So maybe she will have normal life expectancy as opposed to someone who has AZ.

 

[Calico]

<snip>
Today, she is 3 hours away meeting a friend for the first time she found on Facebook. She started talking to her a few weeks ago and they decided to meet up. Even staying in the same hotel room. Yuck! Anyway, this is something that she probably would have done at age 30 also, but she is ripe to be ripped off by someone. I've got all of her big money on lock down at Fidelity.

Is SIL certain she is meeting a woman? Have they actually spoken by zoom, or similar?

Let me guess - SIL is paying for the hotel room?

It sounds like (at best) a scam, and (at worst) walking into a dangerous situation with an unknown person or persons.