Small town school referendum

[427Vette]

I need some opinions from people on this site. I live a few miles outside of a small northern MN town of about 350 people. We have our own school district which consists of just the one K-12 school. The school was last renovated in the mid ‘80’s. They want to do an extensive remodel including several additions on all sides. Included in this is a lot of outside work too. New school bus loading area, playgrounds, athletic fields, that they don’t have land for, the list goes on and on…..and on. The board is proposing a referendum of 41 million dollars. It is a 20 year loan that they will be getting. By the time the interest is paid this is a 71 million dollar deal possibly more depending on the interest rate at the time. I have not got the information yet on how many households there are in the district but like I said the actual town population is roughly 350. The current enrollment is 585 students and declining every year. I have developed a very negative opinion on this. They are looking to burden not a lot of people with a $70 million dollar debt. There are a lot of seasonal recreation cabins in the area. I am guessing that they would far outnumber the residents. As residents we get to vote, the cabin people do not. However we all get to share the burden.

My taxes will go up approximately $6000 a year. I have calculated that this will be almost a $300,000 hit to my portfolio over the 20 year span.

There is so much more to the story but I hope this is enough for now. I am not even sure what my questions are other than am I wrong in thinking this seems outlandish? All of the parents are really pushing for this so their children can enjoy the finished product.


In a recent thread I saw a couple posts where people said they always supported the school no matter what. I am struggling with that but want all opinions.



I look forward to your comments

 

[Out-to-Lunch]

What is the evidence that you have that the children in your community are snowflakes?

 

[Koolau]

I thought I had it bad. WE (as in Honolulu) built (are building) a light rail (so far) from nowhere to nowhere. Eventually - like 2030?? - it will connect our "2nd city" to downtown. The cost? $10K per every man woman and child on the Island.

Ridership that was thought to go as high as 80,000 or so is more like 3,000 IIRC. I saw an estimate that the rides (which cost $3, cost the city $72 each).


In OPs situation - I would consider moving but YMMV.

 

[427Vette]

I thought I had it bad. WE (as in Honolulu) built (are building) a light rail (so far) from nowhere to nowhere. Eventually - like 2030?? - it will connect our "2nd city" to downtown. The cost? $10K per every man woman and child on the Island.

Ridership that was thought to go as high as 80,000 or so is more like 3,000 IIRC. I saw an estimate that the rides (which cost $3, cost the city $72 each).


In OPs situation - I would consider moving but YMMV.

Unfortunately my sweat drops are barely dry from the work I put into building my new place. I built this place as my forever home. Moving isn’t really an option. I am just hoping the vote goes my way.

 

[youbet]

How does the $6k tax increase compare to your current tax level? How did you calculate it?

 

[marko]

You see this everywhere. It's easy to ask for the moon when it's not your money.

"It's for the kids" (how can you say no?)

What is the overall community's feeling on this? Would the referendum pass? Per usual, by the time the project is completed, it'll cost double of the estimate.

Qui bene? Sounds like an absolutely insane amount of money for just 600 kids. Follow the money.

 

[427Vette]

How does the $6k tax increase compare to your current tax level? How did you calculate it?

I literally just finished building it so I don’t have the information from the county on how much my property taxes will be yet. I am speculating that it will be another $6-$7K. So a total of $12-13K.

I just plugged the $6,000 into a compounding interest calculator to figure my total cost.

 

[Aerides]

If the population is only 350 how are there over 500 students? That math doesn't work for me, the area must be larger to have that many school aged children at one time.

How does the voting work? In my experience, everyone likes new things until they have to actually sign up to pay for them.

What is the evidence that you have that the children in your community are snowflakes?

I'm guessing the OP edited his initial post...which might have been more interesting.....

 

[pb4uski]

I feel your pain. Our summer home is in a small rural community that is head-over-heels in love with their small K-12 school that doesn't make economic sense but they keep paying through the nose for it anyway. Last year's graduating class was 10 students. The lakefront properties, most of which are seasonal vacation homes and therefore not residents, are about 15% of the grand list.

A few years ago the state education department proposed that we merge our school with that of a neighboring town but the proposal, which made perfect sense to me, was beat back by opposition in the town.

Luckily, in our state the residential school tax is statewide rather than local so no matter what the local yocal village idiots decide to spend on the school doesn't impact me now, but I felt much differently about it when I was a resident. That town is one of a few in the state where the residential school tax rate is higher than the statewide non-residential school tax rate.

The numbers that you are talking about in terms of capital expenditures and tax increases are astounding. That is capital improvements of $70k per student! How can enrollment be 585 if in a town of 350 people?

Have they considered closing the school and tuitioning students to a neighboring town or merging with a neighboring town with better facilities?

 

[427Vette]

If the population is only 350 how are there over 500 students? That math doesn't work for me, the area must be larger to have that many school aged children at one time.

How does the voting work? In my experience, everyone likes new things until they have to actually sign up to pay for them.


I'm guessing the OP edited his initial post...which might have been more interesting.....

The population of the actual town is 350. It is a very rural area so there are many homes outside of the city limits that attend this school.

The residents get a vote the cabin people do not. I am thinking most others have not actually figured out their cost yet.

I misused a word that I thought had a different meaning so changed it.

 

[427Vette]

You see this everywhere. It's easy to ask for the moon when it's not your money.

"It's for the kids" (how can you say no?)

What is the overall communities feeling on this? Would the referendum pass? Per usual, by the time the project is completed, it'll cost double of the estimate.

Qui bene? Sounds like an absolutely insane amount of money for just 600 kids. Follow the money.

Right now I am getting the feeling that the community members that are aware of it are all for it. I am thinking as it becomes more known there will be a shift. Like you said “it’s for the children”. If you disagree you are looked down upon.

 

[pb4uski]

I'm trying to reconcile your assertion that property taxes will about double with the support for the proposal. In fact, if your property taxes are doubling then the school tax portion must be more than doubling. Are you sure you got the right facts?

In our town, last year many were up in arms about a proposed 35% increase in assessed values, but by the time the increase in assessed values was combined with the change in the statewide school tax rate property taxes actually decreased for nonresidents but residents got hammered.

 

[pb4uski]

... The residents get a vote the cabin people do not. I am thinking most others have not actually figured out their cost yet. ...

I presume that "cabin people" are non-residents and that is why they don't vote? That is also the way it works in our town... non-residents don't get to vote... it's taxation without representation.

 

[youbet]

I literally just finished building it so I don’t have the information from the county on how much my property taxes will be yet. I am speculating that it will be another $6-$7K. So a total of $12-13K.

I just plugged the $6,000 into a compounding interest calculator to figure my total cost.

When you calculated the estimated $6k tax increase, did you consider the home owners in the entire taxing district? How does the town population of 350 play into it?

 

[427Vette]

I'm trying to reconcile your assertion that property taxes will about double with the support for the proposal. In fact, if your property taxes are doubling then the school tax portion must be more than doubling. Are you sure you got the right facts?

In our town, last year many were up in arms about a proposed 35% increase in assessed values, but by the time the increase in assessed values was combined with the change in the statewide school tax rate property taxes actually decreased for nonresidents but residents got hammered.

Like I said above, I am speculating on how much my actual property taxes will be. It could be much higher.

There is a Calculator on the site for the school so residents can put in their own home values and see how much the increase is going to be. That’s where I got the increase for the school board number.

 

[pb4uski]

Something to watch out for. When we rebuilt and were reappraised for the rebuild the town tried to increase the appraised value of our lot as well as the building. I grieved the increase in the value of the lot, pointing out to them that it was the same kit that I had before and the only land improvement was adding a driveway from the road. We ultimately agreed to limit the increase in the appraised value of the lot to the cost of the driveway.

 

[youbet]

In a recent thread I saw a couple posts where people said they always supported the school no matter what. I am struggling with that but want all opinions.

“No matter what”. I don’t think anyone actually said that.

 

[427Vette]

When you calculated the estimated $6k tax increase, did you consider the home owners in the entire taxing district?

I guess I don’t understand this question. The $6000 increase comes right from a calculator on the schools website. I don’t know what you mean about the other part of your question.

 

[Ronstar]

First of all, the $41m price tag may be a little high. My school district is proposing a new school for $36m to house approximately 600 students. Our $36M figure includes the demolition of the existing school.

I suspect the major difference between your situation and ours is that we have a single taxpayer that pays $17M to the school district per year.

But the good thing is that you'll get a chance to vote on your referendum. I don't know how you arrived at a $6,000 per year increase on your real estate taxes, but if you have little industry and most people would end up with a similar increase if the referendum passes, then I suspect that your referendum has little chance of passing.

 

[pb4uski]

... But the good thing is that you'll get a chance to vote on your referendum. I don't know how you arrived at a $6,000 per year increase on your real estate taxes, but if you have little industry and most people would end up with a similar increase if the referendum passes, then I suspect that your referendum has little chance of passing.

The OP will only get a chance to vote on it if he is a resident. Not clear whether or not he is a resident.

 

[Aerides]

I guess voter or not, go to a couple of the board meetings and ask the questions. Get the actual data. "Does the city expect that all residents can afford to pay an extra $5k or more in taxes every year?" would be what I'd start up with.

And if it passes, well, then you have some thinking to do.

 

[Ronstar]

The OP will only get a chance to vote on it if he is a resident. Not clear whether or not he is a resident.

The OP's first few sentences of his first post

"I live a few miles outside of a small northern MN town of about 350 people. We have our own school district which consists of just the one K-12 school."

gives me the impression that he is a resident of the school district.

 

[youbet]

The OP will only get a chance to vote on it if he is a resident. Not clear whether or not he is a resident.

Read the OP where he clearly stated he gets to vote.

“As residents, we get to vote”

 

[pb4uski]

“No matter what”. I don’t think anyone actually said that.

I dunno. In our town there are some people who would feel that way. They are head-over-heels in love with the idea of having a small school in the village that the village kids can walk to and that has local control no matter what it costs.

In many cases property tax relief limits their property tax to a percentage of income no matter how much is spent on the school and no matter how much school taxes their taxes won't go up, a perverted unintended consequence of trying to make property taxes affordable for lower income people.

 

[pb4uski]

Read the OP where he clearly stated he gets to vote.

“As residents, we get to vote”

I stand corrected, he did say that he gets to vote. But it sounds like a lot of property taxpayers are cabin people who don't get to vote and therefore don't get a say in the issue even though they end up having to contribute towards the cost.