Small town school referendum

[youbet]

I dunno. In our town there are some people who would feel that way. They are head-over-heels in love with the idea of having a small school in the village that the village kids can walk to and that has local control no matter what it costs.

In many cases property tax relief limits their property tax to a percentage of income no matter how much is spent on the school and no matter how much school taxes their taxes won't go up, a perverted unintended consequence of trying to make property taxes affordable for lower income people.

Who knows or cares about your town? OP said he saw the “no matter what” comment here in a recent thread. I can’t find it.

 

[youbet]

I stand corrected, he did say that he gets to vote.

Why yes, yes he did.

 

[pb4uski]

Who knows or cares about your town? OP said he saw the “no matter what” comment here in a recent thread. I can’t find it.

Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?

OP said:

...In a recent thread I saw a couple posts where people said they always supported the school no matter what. I am struggling with that but want all opinions. ...

My post was just relaying a real life example of that attitude that some people have IME and explaining in our town why they have that attitude.

 

[youbet]

Isn’t it that you’re hypothesizing or just plain guessing a reason why they have that attitude?

 

[Gumby]

This seems a tempest in a teapot. I have no doubt that there are those who, for their own reasons, will support school construction programs no matter what the cost, but I searched for sentiments like that among previous posts here at ER Org and did not find any expressed.

 

[Lewis Clark]

That is also the way it works in our town... non-residents don't get to vote... it's taxation without representation.

This situation is not uncommon.

About 16 years ago, my community was the target of a failed annexation attempt by the neighboring city. The city saw it as an opportunity to increase their tax base by taking over an area of the unincorporated county. The primary result would be that all property owners in the target area would see an increase in their property taxes.

Florida law says that the only people who can vote on an annexation proposal are resident homeowners in the affected area. Other property owners in the proposed annexation area do not get a vote. The list of affected entities not permitted to vote on the annexation included:

* seasonal residents who own property in my community, and are legal residents elsewhere
* the owners of an entire shopping center adjacent to my community
* Lockheed Martin corporation, which owns a small facility next to my community

Another example of taxation without representation. Didn't we start a war, in part, over this issue?

The impressive result was the 90+% voter turnout of the homeowners in my community, nearly all of whom voted against the annexation. Not many issues can generate that much interest and get that many people to vote.

 

[athena53]

In a recent thread I saw a couple posts where people said they always supported the school no matter what. I am struggling with that but want all opinions.

Ah, does this bring back memories. Bergen County, NJ, late 1990s. First it was a study called "Horizon 2000" by some high-priced consultants, ostensibly to find out what they needed to do to make education in the high schools relevant to prospective colleges and employers. Somehow that resulted in a proposed $17 million bond issue that included a "state-of-the-art darkroom", enhanced performing arts spaces and $1 million worth of landscaping. When asked about ongoing costs of maintaining all these enhancements they had no answer. But... it's for the CHILDREN. It passed, of course. Fortunately I changed jobs and moved out of the area soon after.

What I'd like to see is alternative proposals. One Taj Mahal-type like what the OP's district is proposing and one "Fix what's broken and add some upgrades" proposal and let the voters choose. Probably will never happen.

I'm as careful with tax money as I am with my own. I'm an empty-nester but am still willing to support high-quality education. Just don't expect me to pay for the Taj Mahal.

 

[sturge]

Seems like too much vague information for a substantial financial impact on a small community.

I'm in a moderate sized rural town in CT (5,000 people). Recently a state grant fueled the towns Board of Ed to pursue a "Magnet School" to be added into the local high school which has had a shrinking student population over the last decade. Their belief was the tuition for new "out of town" students enrolling in the Magnet School would help their budget, and it would expand the education opportunities for local kids (It's for the kids...LOL). They made the decision quickly due to time pressure to get the grant. This was done without referendum and the news traveled through the local weekly paper which brought up many questions from locals.

Soon, more facts came out that there would be building additions required, added faculty, etc, all which were unclear as to financial impact to the towns education budget/taxpayers. That resulted local informational meetings where it became clear the Board of Ed had no idea what additional costs would be passed on to towns residents or how this funding would impact them.

Needless to say, it all got shot down when the true facts became known..."it's for the kids" is not the whole story.

 

[pb4uski]

Isn’t it that you’re hypothesizing or just plain guessing a reason why they have that attitude?

Now YOU are the one hypothesizing.

I wasn't guessing or hypothesizing at all. My knowledge of their reasons for their attitudes was based on personal conversations and debates with fervent supporters of the school.

 

[Kings over Queens]

In a recent thread I saw a couple posts where people said they always supported the school no matter what. I am struggling with that but want all opinions.

I look forward to your comments

I have no comment on the project itself. I am on the other side of it, I vote no for each and every referendum and have done so even when my kids were in school. I am not motivated by the "its for the children" attempt to tug on my heart strings.

I have gone to school board meetings and railed against administrative in support of teachers, but the money part of it is a different story.

 

[Texas Proud]

I think it is too much...

BUT, what is the existing tax base? IOW, there is more than the town that is paying for the school. The costs will be borne by all taxpayers. NOTE: be away of any exemptions that some get... ag, over 65, etc.

Why do they want to expand when the student population is going down? That makes no sense... I can see updating systems inside the existing facilities but building more Hard no for me..

BTW, Houston just tried a bond issue that was going to do some of this on low attendance schools but buried in the big bond.... it failed...

My district was trying to get bond money and it is a growing district... with a new state law they had to split it up... the good one passed and the others failed...

 

[Gumby]

.....I vote no for each and every referendum and have done so even when my kids were in school. .....

Automatic rejection is no better than automatic acceptance. Everyone should carefully consider the issues on their merits and vote accordingly.

 

[Music Lover]

Follow the money.

+1

 

[pacergal]

Will this remodel/rebuild make the building safer (fire safety, entrance/exit locks, etc), upgrade infrastructure for communication/internet, create better opportunities for expanded classes ie better lab equipment areas, safer indoor/outdoor gym and sports, etc.
Perhaps even create a more optimum school system where more families will move in?

Our local school district has had bond after bond approved for the past 10 years, every school in the district has now either been remodeled completely or torn down and rebuilt. Many of the schools were close to 100 years old. It is one of the more highly rated schools in the state and even brings in outside kids with their tuition. Our kids have not been in the school system for almost 20 years, but I still vote yes for the bonds. Being able to create a safe, up to date school system and attract high quality teachers is important to me and yes, for me, it is about the kids and their/our future. But we live in a bigger suburb, not a smaller town. So the $ amount seems quite substantial for the area you live in.

 

[athena53]

What puzzles me is the apparent support for such a huge potential property tax increase. My county recently went through a biennial reassessment that was a total mess- assessed values of many homes doubled over two years and were totally out of line with reality. (Mine decreased and it's about 2/3 of what I believe to be market value. Don't tell anyone.) People were up in arms for good reason- not just because the values were crazy-high but because the impact would likely double their property taxes and they just plain couldn't afford them. We do have a law that requires that mill rates be adjusted when assessments go up beyond a reasonable rate of inflation but it doesn't apply to school taxes, which is the bulk of the property tax rate.

Assuming the OP's estimated increase is typical, why is there such support for the bond issue?

 

[Out-to-Lunch]

I'm guessing the OP edited his initial post...which might have been more interesting.....

Yes, that is what happened. The OP sent me a nice note explaining that he was unaware of the way that term has come to be used, and modified the thread starter. I wouldn't mind if a mod were to delete that post of mine.

 

[427Vette]

Here is the one post where it states the author is happy to pay property taxes that find schools.




[IMG alt="Gumby"]https://www.early-retirement.org/data/avatars/m/6/6179.jpg?1737168094[/IMG]

Gumby​

Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...​

Site Team

Ehhhh...... I think there is appreciation for the folks who brought all the younger folks who serve our needs today into the world and provided for them and nurtured them until they were independent, contributing members of society. If our generation had all decided to be childless, getting a doctor appointment would be even tougher today than it already is. We need new, younger faces popping up on the scene!

The folks who took on this task get a tip of the hat from me for that accomplishment. I have absolutely no disdain for childless folks (and there are a lot in my life) but I do appreciate those who took on the challenge of raising kids. If they hadn't, we'd be in one hell of a predicament!

And that's one big reason why I'm happy to pay the property taxes that fund the schools in my town, even though we never used them for our own family.

 

[427Vette]

Here is the other.


[IMG alt="skyking1"]https://www.early-retirement.org/data/avatars/m/46/46016.jpg?1713850967[/IMG]

skyking1​

Thinks s/he gets paid by the post​

Thank you @Gumby for your wise words on the subject. I too do not complain about supporting schools and school programs, and see it like you do.
My father was abusive to my sisters and was an alcoholic. When asked about his childhood, his response was "you'll never know" so I suspect he was a victim himself.
As we go through life and encounter folks, we have no idea of the depths of their personal struggles.

 

[Texas Proud]

Why would someone complain that a non-resident cannot vote?

They have a location where they claim residency... that is where they vote... owning more than one place is a luxury that does not include voting in all locations...

BTW, people who do NOT own property and are residents get to vote... it will affect their rent...

 

[Music Lover]

Most intelligent people have no problem paying school taxes. We all benefit.

But wasting $70 million and saying "it's for the children" to discourage debate is dishonest and to me, suggests that someone is uninformed or hiding something.

Follow the money.

 

[athena53]

And that's one big reason why I'm happy to pay the property taxes that fund the schools in my town, even though we never used them for our own family.

I agree -and the quality of the school system also improves house values in addition to having a better-educated population so we benefit even if we don't have kids in the system. My concern is that the steep property taxes could scare off many potential buyers. I also take a critical look at what they want to add. I went to an Open House for the HS my son would have attended and they had an impressive language lab- headphones and mikes at each desk, etc. I mentioned it to one of the students and he said, "Oh, we never use it because our teacher doesn't know how the equipment works". (And their "World" Language Department included only French, German, Spanish, Russian and Latin- an oddly-constricted "world".) I'm also betting the state-of-the-art darkroom got obsolete fast.

 

[Gumby]

Here is the one post where it states the author is happy to pay property taxes that find schools.




[IMG alt="Gumby"]https://www.early-retirement.org/data/avatars/m/6/6179.jpg?1737168094[/IMG]

Gumby​

Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...​

Site Team

And that's one big reason why I'm happy to pay the property taxes that fund the schools in my town, even though we never used them for our own family.

And I am happy to pay taxes to support the schools even though we never had children. In fact, in my town, the school system is about half the total budget. My taxes are about $16k per year, so that's $8k for the schools every year.

But that doesn't mean that I "always support[ ] the school no matter what" (emphasis mine). Of course I would object if they wanted to gold plate the toilets and pay for Taylor Swift to entertain them at lunch every day. It is both improper and rude of you to mischaracterize (twice) what I actually said in order to set up a strawman for your own purposes.

We don't have referenda where I live, but the mayor, finance committee and board of alderman carefully review, modify if necessary and approve the proposed budget every year, and, in my opinion, they do a good job of using our tax dollars wisely, including paying for the schools. If they don't, that's why we have elections.

And now I see that you are doing it to skyking1. He said he supports the schools and school programs. He did not say "no matter what". He was echoing my point that I'm happy to pay for the schools even though I have no children.

You need to stop misrepresenting the words of others.

You also need to learn how the quote feature works.

 

[427Vette]

And I am happy to pay taxes to support the schools. In fact, in my town, the school system is about half the total budget. My taxes are about $16k per year, so that's $8k for the schools every year.

But that doesn't mean that I "always support[ ] the school no matter what" (emphasis mine). Of course I would object if they wanted to gold plate the toilets and pay for Taylor Swift to entertain them at lunch every day. It is both improper and rude of you to mischaracterize (twice) what I actually said in order to set up a strawman for your own purposes.

We don't have referenda where I live, but the mayor, finance committee and board of alderman carefully review, modify if necessary and approve the proposed budget every year, and, in my opinion, they do a good job of using our tax dollars wisely, including paying for the schools. If they don't, that's why we have elections.

And now I see that you are doing it to skyking1. He said he supports the schools and school programs. He did not say "no matter what". You need to stop misrepresenting the words of others.

You also need to learn how the quote feature works.

So here’s the story. I was up early this morning for a complicated medical procedure that I had to drive 2 1/2 hours to get to. I wanted to quickly start a thread to get some opinions before I left. I didn’t use quotations in my first post or use your name. I didn’t remember who you were (you’re not that important to me) or even which thread it was. I simply remembered someone saying that they were okay with taxes going to schools. I was rather surprised by that. It seemed many people were searching for those posts. I found them so I shared them.

If anyone is being rude it’s you.

I admit I do need to learn how to quote better. Where do I learn that?I am not a screen guy at all. I don’t care to be. I am more of a reader here than a poster mostly because of people like you.

Try to salvage your day… Hopefully this doesn’t ruin your whole weekend.

 

[427Vette]

By the way… keep calm and chive on.

 

[pb4uski]

Why would someone complain that a non-resident cannot vote?

They have a location where they claim residency... that is where they vote... owning more than one place is a luxury that does not include voting in all locations...

BTW, people who do NOT own property and are residents get to vote... it will affect their rent...

I'm not aware of any towns or cities in the US where non-residents can vote.

Perplexity indicated to me that while some cities and towns allow non-citizens to vote in local elections they have to be residents

<mod note: post edited to comply with forum policy regarding AI content >