Social Security Disability payback for a minor - questions

[SecondCor521]

Hi all.

I just found out about a situation tonight regarding a family friend. They don't know all the details and I therefore don't know all the details.

Apparently her father was on SS disability for a while at a time when she was in high school. The parents applied for and received SS payments for her because the father was disabled and she was a minor. Some of those payments were spent on household bills, some (probably a small minority but I don't know) were given to her.

Somehow the SS payments for her went on too long. SS is now asking/expecting to be repaid.

The parents are telling her that she is going to have to repay these SS benefits. Somewhere along in there she left high school; I think the implication from the parents is that her leaving high school means that she is therefore somehow on the hook.

I told her that in my opinion - no, she didn't ask but I spoke anyway - the parents were the adults in the situation and if there was a mistake then the parents were responsible and therefore they should be dealing with the repayment. She became upset because it dawned on her as a result of this conversation that the parents are probably taking advantage of her.

Questions:

1. Is there any way that legally she is on the hook for repayments? I can't imagine so; the parents must have applied for and received the benefits on her behalf because she was a minor. And she obviously isn't the one responsible for the fact that the payments went on too long.

2. Any way to appeal the pay back of excess benefits? I'm guessing not, but I thought I'd ask. (ETA: I did find this: https://www.ssa.gov/forms/ssa-632-bk.pdf - any advice on trying it?)

3. Probably impossible to answer, but any advice for navigating the social aspect of the fact that I already got involved? I apologized immediately for giving too much advice and offered support and encouragement, but it felt like too little too late, even though it was only five minutes later. She is a good friend. She is young and sometimes might not be fully aware of how the world works. I know "not my circus not my monkeys" but I just don't like it when I sense potential injustice. It sure seems like the parents could be taking advantage of her lack of knowledge and trusting nature.

Thanks.

 

[jim584672]

The parents are responsible, not the child.

 

[mrfeh]

The parents are responsible, not the child.

+1

And since the child didn't receive the funds anyway, she should tell them to pound sand.

 

[cathy63]

I do not think the responses saying the parents are responsible for the debt are entirely correct. There have been lots of news stories about SS collecting these old overpayments from adults whose parents received benefits in their names.

A quick google search turns up this report from the OIG: https://oig-files.ssa.gov/audits/full/A-04-16-50110.pdf

Although SSA issues minor children’s benefits to a representative payee, generally, overpaid childhood beneficiaries are equally liable for repaying an overpayment. The overpaid person, his/her representative payee, and any other person receiving benefits on the same Social Security record as the overpaid person may be liable for repaying an overpayment. When SSA presumes childhood beneficiaries are equally liable for repaying an overpayment, SSA will use its authorized and available collection tools to recover the debt. These tools include requesting a full, immediate refund; adjusting current and future Social Security benefits; entering into an installment agreement; or recovering delinquent debts through the External Collection Operation process.

And here's a story from 60 Minutes:

Social Security recipients struggle to pay back agency after unexpected overpayments

The Social Security Administration is trying to recoup billions in overpayments, telling retirees and disabled workers to pay up over miscalculated benefits.

www.cbsnews.com

More than two decades ago, Social Security determined he was no longer medically eligible for benefits. His family received several thousand more dollars while Farmer's mother appealed the decision. The appeal was eventually denied, and the money sent to the family over the course of the appeal was deemed an overpayment. Two years ago, Farmer learned that the Social Security Administration expected him to pay back that excess money his mother received when he was a child.

 

[zl55lz]

I believe the regulation is they will try to recoup from whomever they can. On the parent on whose record the benefit was paid if getting social security, or if not getting benefits anymore, then off the child who the benefits were for. Sometimes many decades later. Apparently they can recoup from tax refunds as well.

I personally would immediately ask for a Waiver of the overpayment, form SSA-632. Also, an appeal--Reconsideration form 561 if one believes the determination is incorrect. Can file for both too at same time. Both forms online.

One can also ask for a set withholding amount each month or to only have to pay back part of the amount.

I personally would not ignore this. The ball is rolling now and action WILL be taken.

 

[Dreamer]

I agree with zl55lz. If the parents are now receiving social security benefits of any kind, they should try to take the overpayment from the parent's record. I would not ignore the overpayment letter, because the overpayment will rear it's head again.

If she is not able to financially repay the overpayment, then I would file for the waiver. She has to be not at fault for creating the overpayment and not able to pay it back. (The overpayment might have occurred, if she quit going to school and did not report it. If she was over age 18, she probably received the checks in her own name.)

 

[Texas Proud]

Sooo, is the father alive? If so he is still collecting SS...

Where did the money go when it should not have been paid? IOW, if the parents got $100 and gave it to her after they should not have been getting any more money then SHE got the benefit of that money and should repay it...

If the parents gave $50 to her and kept $50... an even split...

So the big question is WHEN did the over payments start and who got THAT money...

 

[Irishgirlyc58]

I would ask her when her birthday is. From what I understand if she turned 18 while in high school and then quit HS she would then be ineligible to the benefits, causing the OP.
If she was still a minor she would have been eligible until age 18 regardless of her school attendance.
Either way-I agree that she should file an appeal asap. Even if it was an administrative error the government has a right to collect it unless she can win an appeal.

 

[mystang52]

If I read the first post correctly, it appears S.S. is looking to collect from the parents. The daughter should probably do some defense plans, but does she even have to respond if S.S. is not going after her (yet)?

 

[Texas Proud]

BTW, what kind of family dynamic is at play here... seems very strange parents....

Either way, one side or the other is going to hold a grudge...

 

[RetiredHappy]

Sounds like she dropped out of high school but SS benefits for her kept continuing and finally it caught on that "she" was not entitled to those payments. Parents are probably upset with her for not finishing high school and hence hold her responsible. Her parents should repay the overpayment but I can also understand their position that it was her fault that the money is clawed back since she dropped out.

 

[zl55lz]

Also, they apparently can garnish wages to recoup the overpayment.

 

[Koolau]

Yeah, the family dynamics may well be in play here. No idea how to solve that situation, but for many of us, family harmony is worth more than money. Let's hope that is true in this situation.

They should try to w*rk this out among themselves - even if the technical result is that one of the two parties is on the hook. Nothing says that the daughter couldn't help her parents pay if they were required to - or vise versa. YMMV

 

[SecondCor521]

Thanks for all the replies.

As usual, some clarifications:

1. Nobody's trying to dodge or ignore anything. I agree that the excess benefits should be repaid. My impression is the parents have probably received some sort of repayment letter from the SSA, and they're asking daughter to repay it for them.

2. The whole family is young. The parents are in their early 50s I think and she just turned 20 a few months ago.

3. The father was on SS disability, not regular SS. Both parents are still alive.

4. It's my impression that the overpayment is a few thousand dollars, the parents kept most of it but gave a small percentage of it to her. I believe the payments were all made to the parents (probably as representative payees if that's the right term).

5. She left school after her junior year in high school, so she would have been 16 or 17.

Thanks especially for the resources on appeals and the family dynamic stuff. The family is a bit out of the main stream, but IMHO all families have their own dynamics to deal with, this just happens to be hers.

I think I will offer to her to help her and her parents look into the facts and circumstances to make sure the benefits were indeed an overpayment (maybe they were, maybe they weren't - I don't know all the facts), then offer to help them file the waiver/appeals. Beyond that the question of who pays how much what seems very personal - I can see the arguments both ways.

The key thing is that I think she needs to feel more in control. She has her parents telling her one thing and our family telling her something completely different and I can see it is distressing. And for her the repayment is a lot of money. I will present options and make sure she knows she remains a friend regardless of how she decides to proceed.

Thanks again for all the good replies. Additional comments welcome.

 

[ivinsfan]

When you don't know the whole story it is confusing to figure out what is going on. Now the question, what kind of money amount are we talking here? The cutoff age is 18 unless you are still in high school. So if you accept the not in high school issue, at the maximum it could be 12 months of payments. As Irishgirl has already mentioned. Questions to answer..did someone report she was still attending school to collect additional money? If so, who was the someone? That is the first place to start.

 

[ivinsfan]

SecondCor its not an issue until you turn 18. The amount is going to be the money paid after she turned 18 and she was not in high school.

In regards to your point number 4 if the parents took the money and spent the money it's on them to repay that portion of the money. It's pretty bold for the parents to suggest otherwise. Now if you want to argue the girl should repay the money the parents gave her to spend, that's another topic.

 

[SecondCor521]

Again, the amount is probably a few thousand dollars. I'm fairly certain she left high school before age 18, but I'm not 100% sure. Perhaps the payments came to the parents until she was 19 or something, I don't know.

One major thing that is not clear to me is whether or not there was any nefarious intent on the part of the parents. In my volunteer work with TaxAide, I see plenty of people trying to take advantage of the government on their taxes, so I know it's a common thing.

That being said, I don't know the parents. From what I do know about them, they are basically decent people. So for the time being and until proven otherwise, I'm going to assume that someone just wasn't paying attention and/or didn't understand the rules fully for a period of time and then they corrected the situation once the misunderstanding was brought to light somehow.

I think she should repay her parents whatever they gave her from the SS payments and they should be on the hook for the rest of it. But that's from my family's perspective, and every family handles money a bit differently. My ex, for example, was on her own when she graduated from high school, and it's not uncommon in my region of the country for people to expect their kids to start pitching in even while in high school. Even more so when the family is struggling to get by, which is also not uncommon.

 

[Texas Proud]

Like you have said earlier... maybe do not get involved with it unless you are asked... she is a family friend... how so? She is young so does she know one of your kids?

 

[ivinsfan]

That's a nice common sense reply SecCor and it's very kind of you to want to help the family figure it out. It's possible the parents don't have any extra money either. Perhaps a repayment plan can be negotiated . I am really curious how this issue came to light. Good luck to this family...

 

[SecondCor521]

Like you have said earlier... maybe do not get involved with it unless you are asked... she is a family friend... how so? She is young so does she know one of your kids?

She is a good friend of one of my children and hangs around a lot, so I've gotten to know her. A good-hearted young lady who is just the kind of person one would want to help out.

 

[zl55lz]

The person who was the beneficiary at the time might not be liable if they had a Representative Payee such as a parent, under certain circumstances. Including misuse.

If this were someone I knew I would suggest they contact Social Security immediately and explain the situation, whether the parent was payee or it was switched at some point to the beneficiary (the child at age 18, for example). The office can order the "file" and see who signed what, and when, including if they signed a form at some point stating the child was still enrolled in High School, or not, which I believe is a normal process when in school and getting close to aging out.

Remember, as someone previously mentioned, the Waiver (dismissal of overpayment) can be approved if the facts show 1) they were "not at fault" causing the overpayment, and 2) they cannot afford to pay it back (taking into consideration their income and expenses).

The person does not need to take their parent(s) with them to do this process although they could if they want. If the parent wants to do the same process, that is a separate action from this same process. One or the other or both could be found liable or not, in full or in part.

See attached regulations.

SSA - POMS: GN 02205.007 - Joint and Several Liability for Title II Overpayment Recovery

Joint and Several Liability for Title II Overpayment Recovery

secure.ssa.gov

 

[SecondCor521]

^ Thanks. I doubt she is at fault but she is working full time and can probably afford to pay it back over time.

I think it's probably worth nailing down the facts with her and the local SS office. I'm going to offer to go with her to the office tomorrow, but I think it would probably be better to see if she can get ahold of any SS letters about this so the SS office can reference the files suitably.

I'm leaning towards trying to help with the practicalities - is the overpayment real, can they appeal, etc. - and away from any family dynamics. As others have said, there's the legalities and then there are the family dynamics which interact. I don't want to contribute to or even appear to contribute to a rift between her and her parents.

 

[zl55lz]

I believe there is generally a timeframe they consider when seeing if someone can afford to pay it back (such as 3 years?) so that might factor in.

I believe the office can bring immediately up in their computer any letters sent so I personally wouldn't be concerned with that aspect. I would also ask for a supervisor if need be.

 

[RetiredHappy]

I read that there is no time frame but a reasonable "timely" clawback is 4 years.

 

[ivinsfan]

OP in post 17 you say she should repay her parents whatever money they actually gave her from this SS over payment. This brings up 2 questions. How does she determine exactly how much money they gave her? and more importantly giving it to her parents to presumably repay SS with doesn't actually make sure the money goes to SS. I want to assume the best of her parents, yet them insisting it's the daughters job to repay the SS monies doesn't put them in a good light.

And I don't believe actually being in school is a requirement to get the dependent SS money. If you are over 18 you are entitled to get a payment until you graduate from high school, if you are currently attending school. This might be a question to ask a rep in person, reading between the lines this young lady has not been asked by SS to repay the money, her parents have been asked to repay the money. You are a kind soul to offer to help her with this issue.