some recent encounters with American medical care

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socca

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After going decades without much engagement with American healthcare, I’ve had some recent encounters that I’m passing along to current or future ER people for their edification / amusement.

Encounter #1: elevated PSA
• I was referred by a physician group affiliated with a local nonprofit hospital (in-network) to that hospital’s radiology department for a prostate MRI to make sure my recent slightly elevated PSA reading was benign. The hospital quoted $6k for the MRI. I had it done by a local imaging center for less than $500. Who is paying $6k for an MRI? Maybe people with low-deductible insurance plans? (Later, I had my PSA retested and it was normal for my age).

Encounter #2: locked knee
• one of my knees “locked up” so that any joint movement was extremely painful (I suspect that over-use was the cause). I went to my primary physician’s office. The PA wanted to inject something into my knee to reduce the swelling. There was no way that I was going to allow him to insert a needle into the complex and delicate knee tissues without good reason. Sure enough, the swelling went away on its own after a few days. So, here we have one non-MD (me) negotiating with another non-MD (the PA). I’ve been in my primary care physician’s office several times and have never actually seen a doctor - it’s always been the PA. It seems that modern medical practices have turned PAs into pseudo-MDs - perhaps because PA salaries are much lower than MD salaries? Meanwhile, the insurance is always billed as if I saw an MD.

Encounter #3: home accident
• I had an accident at home that required transport to the ER via ambulance (cost: $900). The four hours in the nonprofit hospital ER getting patched up cost $12,000 (most of this time was spent waiting in a room to be stitched up. I felt like I was in an episode of “The Pitt”). I might have bled out and died without this help so I’m grateful to the paramedics and ER personnel for being available when I needed them. My ACA plan paid $8k and I paid $4k of the ER cost. My deductible under my previous non-ACA United Health Care short-term insurance plan was $25k, so I would have been responsible for the entire ER charge if I was still using that plan. I can easily afford these kinds of charges but other folks might not be so fortunate.
• Later, I returned to this hospital for a follow up. They charged my insurance over $900 for the initial visit (in-network); my portion was 50%. I saw a PA rather than a doctor. I haven’t had any follow-up visits. An equivalent visit to a local private practice (out-of-network) was $350 for the initial visit and $200 for follow-up visits. I always see a doctor at the private practice.

Summary: getting old sucks. Don’t do it! :)
 
Summary: getting old sucks. Don’t do it! :)
Yup. Two surgeries since 2023...prostate that put me in a hospital bed for 12-days (when part of my gut didn't 'wake up') and cervical fusion in 2025 (in and out same day). Never paid a penny out of pocket for either..in fact since going on Medicare and a BCBS Plan F medigap plan in 2015 neither of us has had any out-of-pocket medical expenses.
But we're paying the Plan F premiums. We're paying one way or another but happy we can. In the 10-yrs between retiring and turning 65 we were on our employer's health plans. I paid ~$400 p/m for that but my wife paid $0.
 
• I was referred by a physician group affiliated with a local nonprofit hospital (in-network) to that hospital’s radiology department for a prostate MRI
Never go to a hospital for out-patient radiology services. It is always far cheaper to have those studies done at a free-standing radiology facility regardless of your insurance.
 
Who is paying $6k for an MRI? Maybe people with low-deductible insurance plans?
Those prices you see are often fictional; anyone with insurance gets the secretly negotiated price. Well, it's secret until after the procedure is done. That all changes with Medicare...those reembursement rates are published.
 
I don't think insurance-billed charge amounts are a secret so much as it's hard for a provider/facility to calculate exactly what you'll owe in your specific benefit plan with deductibles, coinsurance, and what you might have already paid into those. They can generally estimate how the insurer might pay, or how they've paid on similar cases, but that's not a guarantee.

Most facilities running modern EHR's and billing systems will be able to provide reasonable estimates for both self pay and insured patients. By federal mandate, they're required to have the ability to produce estimates for self pay patients under the No Surprises act.
 
Those prices you see are often fictional; anyone with insurance gets the secretly negotiated price. Well, it's secret until after the procedure is done.
It's not a secret at all. Just this week, I called two radiology facilities to get a price for my upcoming MRI. I gave them both my insurance information and the CPT code for the study. Both gave me exact, to the penny, prices to have the MRI done at their facility. They were within a few dollars of each other so I'm going to the same place I went for my last two for continuity.
 
It's not a secret at all. Just this week, I called two radiology facilities to get a price for my upcoming MRI. I gave them both my insurance information and the CPT code for the study. Both gave me exact, to the penny, prices to have the MRI done at their facility. They were within a few dollars of each other so I'm going to the same place I went for my last two for continuity.
This is a good site for getting imaging pricing. I recently had an MRI on my cervical spine and forgot to check this site first. Could have saved several hundred dollars, as my insurance contracted rate was $701.

 
This is a good site for getting imaging pricing. I recently had an MRI on my cervical spine and forgot to check this site first. Could have saved several hundred dollars, as my insurance contracted rate was $701.

I've seen that site mentioned before. How does it work exactly? It says it is for self pay patients but makes no mention of insured patients. If a facility is contracted with your insurance company, they can't just disregard your insurance and charge you a lower cash price. That's a breach of contract. Do they get around that rule somehow? And is there any way to find out where you are scheduling prior to actually doing it. The website doesn't name the facility. It's like booking a hotel on Priceline.
 
Most facilities running modern EHR's and billing systems will be able to provide reasonable estimates for both self pay and insured patients.
They should be able to, but most overcharge, at least in my experience. The imaging center where I had my MRI done recently charged me over $1400. They had to get insurance approval, so I know they could have gotten the correct amount, which was $701. The spine surgeon’s office visit charged more than 30% higher than the contracted rate.

These are large organizations, not small independents. I know they have the tech to do it right, but they choose not to. And I have BCBS insurance, not some unheard of company. I personally believe it’s a scam. Not everyone reviews their EOBs and follows up to ask for the refund. I’ve been asking the billing offices what would happen if I never requested the refund. One said that I’d eventually get a refund, but it would take weeks if not months. The other said that I’d have a credit on file. Why would anyone want a credit with an imaging center? And both took weeks to get the refund issued. Had to go through an approval process and then I was given the standard line of “it takes 7-10 business days to process after approval is given.” Funny how a credit card charge goes through in seconds, but a refund takes 2 weeks to “process.”

The U.S. healthcare system is abysmal from a process perspective, not to mention the lowest performing, highest cost advanced nation.
 
I've seen that site mentioned before. How does it work exactly? It says it is for self pay patients but makes no mention of insured patients. If a facility is contracted with your insurance company, they can't just disregard your insurance and charge you a lower cash price. That's a breach of contract. Do they get around that rule somehow? And is there any way to find out where you are scheduling prior to actually doing it. The website doesn't name the facility. It's like booking a hotel on Priceline.
I’ve never actually used it, so I don’t know how you figure out the specific facility. My guess is that you get it once you schedule.

As far as paying the cash rate, there’s no breach of contract. As a patient who has insurance, I can request a cash rate wherever I go. Many insurance contracts include non-disclosure language for their rates, but they can’t do anything about disclosure of cash rates.
 
I’ve never actually used it, so I don’t know how you figure out the specific facility. My guess is that you get it once you schedule.

As far as paying the cash rate, there’s no breach of contract. As a patient who has insurance, I can request a cash rate wherever I go. Many insurance contracts include non-disclosure language for their rates, but they can’t do anything about disclosure of cash rates.
I’ve specifically asked for the cash price and was told they can’t charge me that if I have insurance because they are contracted.
 
I’ve specifically asked for the cash price and was told they can’t charge me that if I have insurance because they are contracted.
Interesting. I’ve done it many times, although the insurance rates have improved (or the cash rates have gotten worse), so I haven’t opted for cash recently.

As far as Radiology Assist goes, here’s what their website says:

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It appears as if they just completely disregard insurance rates and probably have no insurance contracts, so there’s no contractual conflicts. I suspect the centers where the study is actually done does have insurance contracts, but because payment is through Radiology Assist, that probably absolves them.
 
Those prices you see are often fictional; anyone with insurance gets the secretly negotiated price. Well, it's secret until after the procedure is done. That all changes with Medicare...those reembursement rates are published.
In my case I received a courtesy call from the hospital a few days before the MRI informing me that the in-network negotiated rate was $6k. Without this call, I would have done the enema a couple of hours before the appointment and then showed up on time, only to stomp away in disgust when informed of the cost (worse would have been not learning the cost until after the MRI was performed - no escape option there). I was surprised that my ACA insurer allows such a high-cost provider to be in-network. I’m glad that they are since I ended up in this hospital’s ER a couple of months later. I don't know the exact ACA rules governing ER visits - maybe all of those charges are considered in-network regardless of where performed.
 
Our insurance has tier 1 and tier 2 providers. My preferred site is tier 2 so I called them for a price. Then I called the tier 1 place. Their prices were within $5 of each other.
 
I called two radiology facilities to get a price for my upcoming MRI. I gave them both my insurance information and the CPT code for the study.
This is an improvement over when I had BCBS. I'd call with those specifics and they still didn't give me a price. I cornered them saying that they had a contract with BCBS that had negotiated prices, and they admitted that, but still refused to give me the price. Even after the procedure was ordered and scheduled, still, they refused to give me the price.

Now I'm on Medicare and the rates are easy to get...not that I care anymore because with Part A and B with Medicare Supplemental, I don't pay beyond my premiums and copays, and if they participate, they are required to write off the difference between the fictional rate and the Medicare rate.
 
I dont have any of these problems. Probably because I pay more for insurance. If I go out patient to a hospital or to a imaging center, I pay my 10 doller copay. Thats it. No need to look at what's covered or not. If its a follow up for something else thats being treated, like when I was getting ultrasounds each month to monitor a DVT, it cost 0.
 
I dont have any of these problems. Probably because I pay more for insurance. If I go out patient to a hospital or to a imaging center, I pay my 10 doller copay.
We have a high deductible plan so we pay 100% of the cost OOP until the deductible is met. Then we pay 50% after that.
 
I had a blood panel performed at Quest. Medicare covered all cost but the A1C test. I got a bill from Quest for $86. Quest used the wrong CPT code for A1C. This test was medically necessary per Doctor. Amazing...Medicare covers $22 for the same test when medically necessary but they miscoded the test and billed me 4x the amount. It is in there best interest to miscode these items and inflate the direct to patient cost. No pay, I'm fighting it as a matter of principle.
 
Good luck, Sub. I also appealed many of those on principle and never won. They wear you down over months and months. I have a folder that's an inch thick, all for less than $100.

Their MO is to require Quest and/or the doctor to provide a response. "Ain't nobody got time for dat!" So they get no response and reject it.

My similar case was where they said the lab order didn't have the right diagnostic code
And since I keep copies, I provided the lab order that showed the diagnostic code was there, it just wasn't entered when they filed with Medicare. They still wanted the doctor to provide the original order, which would look identical to the one I provided.

You're absolutely right that providers have an incentive not to file correctly because they get way more money if you pay compared to what Medicare would pay. It's nuts.

Oh, and if you don't pay, they might not do your next blood test! They've got you by the short hairs.

And you can't do the 3rd level appeal (administrative law judge) because you're not out enough money.
 
Good luck, Sub. I also appealed many of those on principle and never won. They wear you down over months and months. I have a folder that's an inch thick, all for less than $100.

Their MO is to require Quest and/or the doctor to provide a response. "Ain't nobody got time for dat!" So they get no response and reject it.

My similar case was where they said the lab order didn't have the right diagnostic code
And since I keep copies, I provided the lab order that showed the diagnostic code was there, it just wasn't entered when they filed with Medicare. They still wanted the doctor to provide the original order, which would look identical to the one I provided.

You're absolutely right that providers have an incentive not to file correctly because they get way more money if you pay compared to what Medicare would pay. It's nuts.

Oh, and if you don't pay, they might not do your next blood test! They've got you by the short hairs.

And you can't do the 3rd level appeal (administrative law judge) because you're not out enough money.
Good to know. Doctor's office promised to get the coding corrected (about two-months ago). Luckily I do have alternative outlets for testing in FL and OH.
 
I live in Bangkok Thailand. My insurance premiums are $2,500/yr with a deductible of $1,200. I am now 70 yrs old. I've had MRI's and overnight stays in private hospitals and never paid more than $600-$700 out of pocket. I did pay for a kidney stone procedure (pre-existing condition)earlier this year that required general anesthesia and an overnight stay - $4,500.

I've been out of the US healthcare system for 9 years. It seemed fine when I left. I don't really understand what I am reading when I read posts like this.
 
I had a blood panel performed at Quest. Medicare covered all cost but the A1C test. I got a bill from Quest for $86. Quest used the wrong CPT code for A1C. This test was medically necessary per Doctor. Amazing...Medicare covers $22 for the same test when medically necessary but they miscoded the test and billed me 4x the amount. It is in there best interest to miscode these items and inflate the direct to patient cost. No pay, I'm fighting it as a matter of principle.
I had a similar issue with a PSA but with an ICD code. I didn't pay, reported it to Medicare, and the charge eventually went away. I'm not sure if the missed code was intentional or not. The upcharge for "not medically necessary" was huge
 
I had a similar issue with a PSA but with an ICD code. I didn't pay, reported it to Medicare, and the charge eventually went away. I'm not sure if the missed code was intentional or not. The upcharge for "not medically necessary" was huge
They will say it's not necessary if you went to the doctor for situation X, and the test was for situation Y. You certainly have both conditions X and Y, but if the diagnostic code isn't aligned, Medicare will reimburse at $0.

The thing that makes things "go away" is if the provider didn't give you the "ABN" form. The form requires you to check a box saying you'll pay. So it's not one of the fine-print forms they make you sign. It's illegal for anyone but you to check the "I'll pay it" box. So if you appeal, you can win if the provider can't produce the ABN. I've found the provider might lie about me having signed an ABN. At that point, your appeal needs to ask for proof, and then you win. But the provider gets stuck holding the bag. Really, Medicare should pay, since they got out of paying on a technicality, but at least you don't have to pay.
 
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