Sports car dreams

[ArmchairMillionaire]

It is obvious that today's cars are much, much faster, have better handling and braking, and are much more solid than anything from the late-60's early-70's, but for emission and safety reasons, they can't match the visceral experience of a true muscle car from that era. Sound, vibration, smell, the feel of the controls. The terrifying lack of traction from those bias ply tires, and the lack of braking. The crackle of the crappy AM radio!

My favorite visceral automobile experience was my old 1978 Chevy Monza Spyder hatchback. It had a 305 cu. in. V8 with a Saginaw 4-speed manual transmission in a car weighing less than 3000 lbs. The previous owner supposedly did some engine work and also swapped in a Rochester Quadrajet instead of the factory 2-bbl carburetor. That car was way more fun than a hatchback with 13" wheels should have been.

Some might even be "resto-modded", which to me is completely missing the point.

I "resto-modded" my 1979 El Camino. It came from the factory with a 95-hp V6 and a 3-speed automatic transmission.

I swapped in a tuned-port-injected 305 V8 and a 700R4 overdrive transmission from a 1989 IROC Camaro.

With a Flowmaster™ exhaust it has that low V8 rumble it never would have had with the old 200 cu. in. V6, and with the overdrive, I can drive it to a car show 12 hours away and it cruises on the highway just fine. Here it is at Elcofest™ last summer after a 600+ mile road trip to get there.

To each their own, I guess.

 

[Diogenes]

Diogenes, Now that most of the car people on this site have given you suggestions to advance your dream what are you doing to forward your dream?

I'm going to resurrect an old project, regarding which I've been a bit cagey so far in this thread. The project is currently in storage, awaiting a mental recalibration, and resolution of the real estate dilemma.

 

[RetiredAt55.5]

I would agree, the late 60's were the pinnacle for the performance car market back then. Brute, raw, big block power that would shake the earth, styling that wouldn't quit and anyone could work on them. Today, car styling "suck" for the most part (with a few exceptions), few of us can work on them, but the performance/technology today is unmatched (by a long shot) from anything back in the day.

Yes, late 60's high performance cars had legendary engines.

Unfortunately, they were paired with bias ply tires, drum brakes, and crude suspensions.

And they guzzled gas like it was 30 cents a gallon.

 

[Koolau]

I was in my late teens in 1969. My boss had an absolutely beautiful ~22 yr old blonde daughter that drove a dark green 69 Mach1 with a 428CJ. Funny how I remember milestones in my life by the cars I loved. The things dreams are made of.

I think there's a George Jones song someplace in this experience.

 

[Koolau]

Yes, late 60's high performance cars had legendary engines.

Unfortunately, they were paired with bias ply tires, drum brakes, and crude suspensions.

And they guzzled gas like it was 30 cents a gallon.

For the time, my '69 Vette was relatively sophisticated. 4-wheel disc brakes, close-ratio 4-speed, stereo radio, PS/PB. By today's standards it was a piece of junk with a lousy interior. But boy was it fun - while it lasted. I had an airplane, a Vette and a girlfriend. Then I got married and gave up the plane and the Vette. Good bargain - but I'm ever wistful for those days.

 

[Ronstar]

...The opposite would be a kit Shelby Cobra or Lotus-7/Caterham. Noisy and a bit too flamboyant. But I'd have touched every bolt, and would have some cognizance of what every subsystem is doing.

I would go the Shelby Cobra route if I were you. It would be a fun project. And a fun ride.

 

[Car-Guy]

Yes, late 60's high performance cars had legendary engines.

Unfortunately, they were paired with bias ply tires, drum brakes, and crude suspensions.

And they guzzled gas like it was 30 cents a gallon.

All true, even the price of gas was in the low 30 cents a gallon range. Sometimes it would still drop into the upper 20's. I once saw it for 19.9 but that was in the early 60's.

 

[38Chevy454]

Just for reference, $0.35/gal in 1968 is like $3.25/gal in today's dollars. So not really that much different in terms of what the dollar was worth then vs now.

 

[Flieger]

I have had so many cars over the years (would be well over $1MM in value now.

• 69 Mustang Mach 1 (351W)
• 70 Mustang Mach 1 (351C)
• 68 GTO (389 Tri Power, His and Hers Shifter)
• 69 Z28 (302)
• 70 GTO Judge (455HO)
• 1988 911 Cabriolet
• 2012 Mustang Boss 302

While all of them had awesome sound and were quick 0-60+, none of them had the snap your head back torque of my current Tesla Model S.

That said, my dream car would be an Aston Martin DBS. Just because it looks (and sounds) so cool. Maybe one day.

Flieger

 

[ArmchairMillionaire]

Just for reference, $0.35/gal in 1968 is like $3.25/gal in today's dollars. So not really that much different in terms of what the dollar was worth then vs now.

True, but the 1970 LS6 454 Chevelle was rated at 450 (gross) hp, did 0-60 in around 5.5 to 6 seconds and got 7-10 mpg.

The 2026 Corvette ZR1 has 1064 net hp, does 0-60 in 2.3 seconds and gets 12-18 mpg.

Of course, the MSRP (with required options) of the Chevelle was around $3,800 in 1970, ($~32K in today's dollars) while the MSRP of the ZR-1 is around $185,000.00 today before dealer mark-ups.

 

[Al18]

Many 60’s muscle cars still on the road have 2 or 4 wheel disc brakes, radial tires, upgraded suspensions and electronic fuel injection and are much faster today.

 

[Masquernom]

The 1968 SS396 model Camaro did 0-60 in 6.6 - 6.8 seconds. My 2016 Acura MDX does it in 6.1 -6.4.

 

[Car-Guy]

My totally stock late model 6400 lb pickup truck does zero to 60 in 3.9. Zero to 100 comes in under 10 sec. 1/4 in the 11s. It can pass just about anything, except a gas station.

 

[Diogenes]

The 1968 SS396 model Camaro did 0-60 in 6.6 - 6.8 seconds. My 2016 Acura MDX does it in 6.1 -6.4.

It's generally true, that a middling performance-oriented car today, accelerates faster than a fairly high end muscle car from the late 1960s. But what about a restomod? I mean:

* Engine swap. Yank that 396, replace it with an aftermarket block, say 4.5" bore, 4.25" stroke, aluminum heads, good mechanical roller cam and so on.
* Redo the suspension, including stiffening the chassis. I mean really re-engineer the suspension and chassis!
* Redo the brakes and tires, of course.

That 1968 Camaro would now weigh maybe around 3100 pounds and put some 500+ hp to the rear wheels. Done properly, it would out-accelerate a 6th-generation Camaro ZL1, not to mention anything from Acura... including the latest model NSX.

That said, I wouldn't start with a Camaro. Too large. Too much nostalgia. I'd do a Datsun 240Z, or an RX-7, or maybe an Opel, or going back further, a Fiat Topolino. Notice the theme? Compact import, RWD. I'd keep the firewall VIN stamp and the basic unibody. More or less gut everything else. Tube chassis on a chassis-jig, radical engine setback, and of course the engine swap (and anything else that spins or moves).

Muscle cars are best left to the folks who prize history, nostalgia, period-correctness, maybe collectability/investment. I'm more interested in raw performance. Similar era, different concept.

 

[TheWizard]

The 1968 SS396 model Camaro did 0-60 in 6.6 - 6.8 seconds. My 2016 Acura MDX does it in 6.1 -6.4.

Apparently my 2024 Ecoboost Mustang does 0-60 in 4.9 seconds.
Don't even ask what a Tesla does.

2024 Ford Mustang 0-60 MPH and 1/4-Mile Times: Dark Horse, GT, and EcoBoost Tested

How quick is the new Ford Mustang? We’ve track tested every S650 we can get our hands from Dark Horse, to GT, to EcoBooost in an effort to find out.

www.motortrend.com

Things have changed a bit since the old days...

 

[RetiredAt55.5]

It's generally true, that a middling performance-oriented car today, accelerates faster than a fairly high end muscle car from the late 1960s. But what about a restomod? I mean:

* Engine swap. Yank that 396, replace it with an aftermarket block, say 4.5" bore, 4.25" stroke, aluminum heads, good mechanical roller cam and so on.
* Redo the suspension, including stiffening the chassis. I mean really re-engineer the suspension and chassis!
* Redo the brakes and tires, of course.

GM performance sells different crate engines with reportedly 3 yr/100K warranties, ranging from 300 hp to 1000+ hp.

Bring a Trailer had a 1995 Mazda MX-5 Miata with a 5.7 LS1 V8 listing in 2022. It was bid up to $24k but didn't sell.

Of course, whether you roll your own or buy one already put together, it could turn into a Frankenstein. If one's not really handy mechanically, I'd always worry (being the worrying type) about who's going to work on a one off car, especially dealing with potential drivability problems. Insuring such a car could be another challenge.

 

[JohnnyPHX]

My neighbor has a 1970 Mach 1 in his garage. He bought it new and it just sits there now. Guess it will sell at his estate sale some day.

Or go to his lucky kids if he has any.
We had a dear neighbor who was a car guy. He unfortunately passed away too early at about age 78. His two kids had to figure out what to do with his car collection which included his original owner 70 fastback Mustang, a 70ish convertable mustang and three classic Mercury Comets that were all like new. They did auction a couple of them off on bring a trailer.
He forgot to leave one to his good friends across the street...

 

[Texas Proud]

The 1968 SS396 model Camaro did 0-60 in 6.6 - 6.8 seconds. My 2016 Acura MDX does it in 6.1 -6.4.

LOL... my Lexus PHEV does it in 6.3 also...

Had a Hyundai Genesis that clocks in at 5.5..

On the other end.. I had a 1980 Mazda GLC that took 14.1 seconds... and when I had it I thought it was pretty good... ran that thing to 6K RPM all the time... really fun going through the gears...

 

[Diogenes]

Of course, whether you roll your own or buy one already put together, it could turn into a Frankenstein. If one's not really handy mechanically, I'd always worry (being the worrying type) about who's going to work on a one off car, especially dealing with potential drivability problems. Insuring such a car could be another challenge.

I worry about this as well. The implication is that while $25K or $50K or something like that, would indeed buy a thrilling and capable machine on Bring-a-Trailer, Cars-and-Bids or some such, that's only the beginning of the story. The continuation is maintenance, tinkering with things that inevitably fail, maybe doing mods of one's own, and depending on the age of the machine, passing California smog-check.

The dream entails not merely writing a check for something nicely built, but reimagining oneself as a hobbyist-mechanic, with the tools and infrastructure to reliably act as such. This is even more true for a "hybrid" (small Japanese or European car with a big American engine and drivetrain) than for a traditional muscle car. It means things like learning how to weld, how to read spark plugs, maybe even how to rebuild a manual transmission. It borders on undertaking a second career! In the context of retirement, one has to ask oneself, whether the investment in labor/time/effort is truly worth it.

 

[sdtech]

When my brother married in 1972 they kept his boring sedan and sold his wife's 67 Ford Shelby Mustang convertible .

They still see it every year caring a local beauty queen in parades. Like this one but yellow.

 

[Out-to-Lunch]

Of course, whether you roll your own or buy one already put together, it could turn into a Frankenstein. If one's not really handy mechanically, I'd always worry (being the worrying type) about who's going to work on a one off car, especially dealing with potential drivability problems. Insuring such a car could be another challenge.

But if you roll your own, you will know nearly everything about how to work on that car! I swapped an LS1/T56 combo into a 1999 BMW 3-series. I daresay that this is now easier for me to work on than the orginal BMW drivetrain would have been.

(Funnily enough, I get the oil changed by a mechanic, because I lowered the car too much for me to get under. The mechanic says that, from below, it just looks like he is working on a Chevy pickup!)

 

[38Chevy454]

One big factor in all of this new vs old discussion: pull into any gas station or store in your new car vs an old muscle car or something else old. Nobody gives a second look about your new car unless it is a special limited edition or exotic type. But your old car gets all kinds of attention every time. In my old hot rods there is no such thing as a quick gas and go. It's always someone coming up asking about it. It brings smiles, thumbs up, and waves from people on the street. The new car just doesn't have soul like an old car. You either understand this or you don't. Not a problem if you view a car as an appliance to get from point A to point B, that's not what driving a performance or older car is about. It's the journey and not just the destination.

 

[Car-Guy]

One big factor in all of this new vs old discussion: pull into any gas station or store in your new car vs an old muscle car or something else old. Nobody gives a second look about your new car unless it is a special limited edition or exotic type. But your old car gets all kinds of attention every time. In my old hot rods there is no such thing as a quick gas and go. It's always someone coming up asking about it. It brings smiles, thumbs up, and waves from people on the street. The new car just doesn't have soul like an old car. You either understand this or you don't. Not a problem if you view a car as an appliance to get from point A to point B, that's not what driving a performance or older car is about. It's the journey and not just the destination.

^^^^Absolutely true.
When I drove one of my old 60's vintage cars, I was always getting a wave, thumbs up or a quick chat in the parking lot or gas station. These days, I still get that in my new performance truck, (seems usually at a gas station) but only for those that know what it is, since it looks like "almost" every other truck on the road. I can't tell you how many times I've been asked to "pop the hood" so they can see the engine. Which I'll usually do, but that brings on a longer discussion.

 

[Al18]

If you want a sleeper, how about a 1967 Impala station wagon with a big block 454, performance upgrades, air ride suspension and 4 wheel disc brakes for $27,000 at Maple Motors Inc. - Hendersonville, TN

 

[flyoverstate]

If you want a sleeper, how about a 1967 Impala station wagon with a big block 454, performance upgrades, air ride suspension and 4 wheel disc brakes for $27,000 at Maple Motors Inc. - Hendersonville, TN

Old station wagons are the ultimate sleepers. Oddly enough, they used to have their own NHRA class!

I still kick myself for passing on a 1977 Pontiac LeMans station wagon with the factory 400/4-speed combo that sold during the pandemic for $17,000. Talk about rare, I doubt there were a dozen of those made.