suicide of a friend

[hesperus]

That's just it - you can't imagine how 'low' you have to be to consider it, unless you've been in that hole. Fortunately I never have. As someone else said in this thread: "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem". Yes, of course but the issue is that that suicidal person doesn't see it as a temporary problem. They feel like it's ALWAYS going to feel this terrible. Normal reasoning goes right out the window. That's the hopelessness that severe depression can create. It doesn't matter if one is retired, working, rich, poor, single, or married. It's the great equalizer.

The stigma of it is also very challenging, so suicidal people (who are serious about it) rarely talk about it before they do it. And even here on this forum, I'm sure it makes people uncomfortable even reading about it. But having had close friends who have done this, the whole experience hits home again whenever I hear of it happening. I spent a few weeks time in a suicide survivors help group, because of the profound effect the loss had on me and my friends. I always take it seriously and never feel like I should avoid the topic.

 

[Meadbh]

I've lost a few friends to suicide and often wonder when was the turn down the path of no return. The process of assisted suicide was explored in a Frontline documentary called The Suicide Tourist that is worth a watch... https://youtu.be/EzohfD4YSyE.

Medical assistance in dying has been legal in Canada for about 11 months now and over 1300 Canadians have taken advantage of it. The most common controversy these days is whether the law is too conservative. It specifies that death must be "reasonably foreseeable", which does not help if you have a painful, debilitating condition that is not going to kill you anytime soon, or whether you are severely depressed. I think that it was wise to steer clear of those ethical dilemmas on the first pass. It's one thing to go through the process of MAID in a systematic manner, but another thing entirely to take the initiative yourself, often in secret.

1,300 Canadians have died with medical assistance since legalization — here's one man's story - Health - CBC News

 

[anethum]

I was put in an awful situation many years ago when a co-worker divulged very private and embarrassing personal information to me but swore me to secrecy. I knew he was completely bent out-of-shape, but I didn't know what to do besides repeatedly asking him when no one was around if he was OK, and making a couple of suggestions regarding his situation. He kept maintaining that he was fine. I was concerned because he was clearly not his normal self, but I felt I was between a rock and a hard place because of the vow of secrecy he had imposed. He shot and killed himself a few days later. I honestly had not seen it coming.

In the aftermath of his death, I had to have a very difficult conversation with his widow (who was out of the country when all of this happened), and his sister, who was the only other person he had divulged information to. I was appalled at some of the thoughtless things a couple of co-workers said to me when they found out what I had known.

A year or two later, I had to deal with another suicide. I had just walked into my home and the phone was ringing. I picked up, and a woman identified herself as a police detective with a local department. She asked me if I knew X. I said yes. She asked me when I had last seen him. She then said: "I'm sorry to have to inform you that X has died, and foul play was not suspected." X wasn't that old and was in good physical health. I asked if suicide was suspected. She said yes. She then told me that X left a suicide note for me. A few years earlier, he had told me about his depression. I had attempted repeatedly to talk with him about it, but he would say very little. He gradually withdrew from me. His note talked about how anti-depressants hadn't been helping. He also had some sweet words for me. I still miss him greatly.

I later learned from his relatives that he had attempted suicide 20 years earlier, and had almost succeeded but had been found just in time. This time, he timed it so that it would be impossible for him to be saved.

 

[Amethyst]

In my life, I have had two people tell me that talking to me, at a critical point in their lives, helped convince them not to kill themselves. I had had no notion they were contemplating suicide, and I don't know what I said to turn things around. Apparently, I simply had the "right" kind words for them, at the right time.

 

[Koolau]

I've known a few suicide victims but only one close enough to call a friend (and not really close.) After a suicide, I often hear folks say "I can't believe it. S/he was so (fill in the blank in a good way)." This man was the one who did not surprise me at all. He had expectations of the way the world should be. He worked much of his life to make it into his mold, but obviously failed. (It wouldn't have been MY world, but...) He apparently researched the best way to end his life without making much of a mess (using the correct firearm, believe it or not.) He left notes telling where things were. He contacted a relative to notify the appropriate people, etc. In short, he was very methodical and determined. I would have to say that his suicide was at least as rational as the rest of his life. Maybe not a good epitaph, but I would say it was accurate. Still, very sad.

 

[Bestwifeever]

Alcohol was involved in the handful of suicides I'm familiar with. The young ones are very difficult--imo that death is the epitome of a permanent solution to a temporary problem. The middle-aged and older are still sad to me but in a different way and not a decision I would second-guess.

 

[Amethyst]

Whenever Richard Cory went down town,
We people on the pavement looked at him;
He was a gentleman from sole to crown,
Clean favored, and imperially slim.

And he was always quietly arrayed,
And he was always human when he talked;
But still he fluttered pulses when he said,
"Good-morning," and he glittered when he walked.

And he was rich - yes, richer than a king,
And admirably schooled in every grace;
In fine, we thought that he was everything
To make us wish that we were in his place.

So on we worked, and waited for the light,
And went without the meat, and cursed the bread;
And Richard Cory, one calm summer night,
Went home and put a bullet through his head.

--"Richard Cory," by Edward Arlington Robinson

I've known a few suicide victims but only one close enough to call a friend (and not really close.) After a suicide, I often hear folks say "I can't believe it. S/he was so (fill in the blank in a good way)." This man was the one who did not surprise me at all. He had expectations of the way the world should be. He worked much of his life to make it into his mold, but obviously failed. (It wouldn't have been MY world, but...) He apparently researched the best way to end his life without making much of a mess (using the correct firearm, believe it or not.) He left notes telling where things were. He contacted a relative to notify the appropriate people, etc. In short, he was very methodical and determined. I would have to say that his suicide was at least as rational as the rest of his life. Maybe not a good epitaph, but I would say it was accurate. Still, very sad.

 

[Idnar7]

I knew of two situations that ended poorly. First had multiple surgeries including a pacemaker. He said "no more surgeries and shut off the pacemaker". The other had failing kidneys that would require dialysis. He said "no dialysis". Both were told they would die in hours or a couple days. Both did. Were these suicides? They had health initiatives. Both around 71. Both left loving families. Not in assisted-death states. In both cases they were life-threatening only because they refused further treatment. I struggle with my thinking on this.

 

[Koolau]

Whenever Richard Cory went down town,
We people on the pavement looked at him;
He was a gentleman from sole to crown,
Clean favored, and imperially slim.

And he was always quietly arrayed,
And he was always human when he talked;
But still he fluttered pulses when he said,
"Good-morning," and he glittered when he walked.

And he was rich - yes, richer than a king,
And admirably schooled in every grace;
In fine, we thought that he was everything
To make us wish that we were in his place.

So on we worked, and waited for the light,
And went without the meat, and cursed the bread;
And Richard Cory, one calm summer night,
Went home and put a bullet through his head.

--"Richard Cory," by Edward Arlington Robinson

A great poem and following is Paul Simon's adaptation:

Black Capsule, anyone??

 

[bmcgonig]

I knew of two situations that ended poorly. First had multiple surgeries including a pacemaker. He said "no more surgeries and shut off the pacemaker". The other had failing kidneys that would require dialysis. He said "no dialysis". Both were told they would die in hours or a couple days. Both did. Were these suicides? They had health initiatives. Both around 71. Both left loving families. Not in assisted-death states. In both cases they were life-threatening only because they refused further treatment. I struggle with my thinking on this.

There's definitely a certain age when I think I would do likewise. I just don't know that age yet.

 

[Amethyst]

It's not the age so much as the quality of life, or lack thereof. At some point it becomes too much trouble to go on. Now, let's talk about something cheerful! I just got a new credit card that will give me 55K points for spending $3K in 3 months!

There's definitely a certain age when I think I would do likewise. I just don't know that age yet.

 

[athena53]

There's definitely a certain age when I think I would do likewise. I just don't know that age yet.

Read "Being Mortal" by Athul Gawande. He talks about how each person has his/her own idea of what "living" is. One patient said he wanted to be kept alive as long as he could watch football games and eat chocolate ice cream. The author's father, OTOH, a physician, chose not to treat his cancer (spinal, IIRC) because it would impair his mobility and he wanted to keep working as long as he could. To me, choosing not to start or continue aggressive measures that have no probability of giving you life, as you define it, is not the same as suicide.

Sorry to get back to the gloomy stuff, Amethyst, but this is a subject dear to my heart. Both my mother and my husband (ages 85 and 78, respectively) chose not to undergo aggressive treatments which had almost zero chance of success. I think that patients (and their relatives) need to know it's OK to say "Game Over". A crazy portion of our healthcare costs are in the last couple of months of life and they're not always well-spent.

 

[Fedup]

Read "Being Mortal" by Athul Gawande. He talks about how each person has his/her own idea of what "living" is. One patient said he wanted to be kept alive as long as he could watch football games and eat chocolate ice cream. The author's father, OTOH, a physician, chose not to treat his cancer (spinal, IIRC) because it would impair his mobility and he wanted to keep working as long as he could. To me, choosing not to start or continue aggressive measures that have no probability of giving you life, as you define it, is not the same as suicide.

Sorry to get back to the gloomy stuff, Amethyst, but this is a subject dear to my heart. Both my mother and my husband (ages 85 and 78, respectively) chose not to undergo aggressive treatments which had almost zero chance of success. I think that patients (and their relatives) need to know it's OK to say "Game Over". A crazy portion of our healthcare costs are in the last couple of months of life and they're not always well-spent.

I agree with you. Both of my parents refused any surgery. They were not sure it would help them or make it worst.

 

[jjquantz]

My father (63 at the time) refused treatment for his lung cancer because he was afraid it would run through his meager savings and leave my mother without resources. Of course, she died 5 years later, also from lung cancer. She did receive chemo, but the end game was much the same, she was just more uncomfortable for the few extra months she gained. Everyone applies their own logic to the situation.

 

[Sue J]

My mother had very bad depression all her life. She was treated with anti-depressants and various other medications. One of them worked well and she had a block of time where she felt she had a recovery but she built up a tolerance to it and couldn't go beyond the maximum dosage for very long. Eventually, at age 70 she started electro-convulsive therapy and had good results.

Back when I was a teen and young adult she had a couple of suicide attempts. One was mixing pills and alcohol. The other was getting into the bathtub with a kitchen knife and slitting her wrists. It was hard to realize how miserable she was to do these things. We could see she was dealing with depression but nothing seemed to be worse before she acted. She told me that she didn't plan to hurt herself, she saw the knife in the kitchen and decided to slit her wrists, but she got in the tub first to minimize the mess my dad would have to deal with. This is truly mental ILLNESS.

One time she woke up my Dad to tell him that she hadn't been sleeping for months and decided to jump off their 5th floor balcony. Instead she woke him and asked him to take her to the hospital. Progress.

She loved her family but did not consider the impact on her husband and kids. It hurts to think back to how much she suffered for many years.

Thankfully, she had a couple of good years before she died in 2011 at age 83 of natural causes. RIP, Mom.

 

[Red Badger]

Late 60s and checking out via suicide seems sad but no one knows what goes on inside the head of another. I think our society holds suicide in such a negative light when sometimes it is actually a very generous gift so others aren't burdened. I'm sure others may not agree due to religious or personal beliefs but I see nothing wrong with one ending one's life if there is sickness, pain and suffering that can't be alleviated and or if there is no quality of life.

+1
It's one of my plans if facing serious infirmity / dementia. I have no plan to burden others with changing my diapers, or surrendering my modest estate so I can exist, in misery, for some finite number of months/years in a "home."
So, like today, if available, I'll use the self check out lane.

 

[hesperus]

Now, let's talk about something cheerful! I just got a new credit card that will give me 55K points for spending $3K in 3 months!

This thread is titled 'suicide of a friend'. By nature it's not a very 'cheerful' subject, but alas, it is a part of life for friends who have gone through it. Try not to change the thread. Your comment is rather representative of the aversion that is often attached to suicide. Please respect that.

 

[Amethyst]

I think my numerous posts in this thread are extremely respectful and representative of my true feelings on the subject, but you're entitled to your opinion.

This thread is titled 'suicide of a friend'. By nature it's not a very 'cheerful' subject, but alas, it is a part of life for friends who have gone through it. Try not to change the thread. Your comment is rather representative of the aversion that is often attached to suicide. Please respect that.

 

[Taxman59]

This thread is titled 'suicide of a friend'. By nature it's not a very 'cheerful' subject, but alas, it is a part of life for friends who have gone through it. Try not to change the thread. Your comment is rather representative of the aversion that is often attached to suicide. Please respect that.

Having dealt with many serious and depressing topics before, an occasional attempt at moving the conversation with a light-hearted comment can be very therapeutic to all those involved.

Also, thread hijacking is a long-standing tradition on this forum!