Surge suppressor question

[SecondAttempt]

I have catchment water. Think of it as a well with the aquifer above ground. I currently have a pump, pressure switch, and pressure tank.

I'll be building a new pump shed and replacing most of the equipment very soon. The company I work with is suggesting a Variable Frequency Drive (VFD) pump. I am familiar with these from work. They are generally a much better solution using less energy and maintaining constant pressure. My concern is that we have fairly frequent power outages and I have lost a lot of equipment to what I suspect are power surges. A VFD is basically electronic so I would only want to install one if I have good surge protection. A regular pump and pressure switch are more bomb proof.

Anyone have suggestions for a 240 V surge suppressor? Or comments about a VFD for a well pump?

 

[OldShooter]

Ask the manufacturer.

 

[Koolau]

I have catchment water. Think of it as a well with the aquifer above ground. I currently have a pump, pressure switch, and pressure tank.

I'll be building a new pump shed and replacing most of the equipment very soon. The company I work with is suggesting a Variable Frequency Drive (VFD) pump. I am familiar with these from work. They are generally a much better solution using less energy and maintaining constant pressure. My concern is that we have fairly frequent power outages and I have lost a lot of equipment to what I suspect are power surges. A VFD is basically electronic so I would only want to install one if I have good surge protection. A regular pump and pressure switch are more bomb proof.

Anyone have suggestions for a 240 V surge suppressor? Or comments about a VFD for a well pump?

"Bomb proof?" What am I missing?

Son had catchment AND solar on Big Island. He STILL had electrical issues (killed all his "farm raised" fish when the system gliched and shut down his aeration for several hours.)

What do you do for drinking water? Son had a filter - apparently making catchment water suitable for drinking. I never drank his water. I would have bought bottled/bulk bottled water. He never got sick, so...

 

[CO-guy]

In a past career, I managed the operation of research spaces with lots of different kinds of equipment and computers to control them. Surges or even brief power failures could really mess things up, so everything was connected to a UPS. They're not even particularly expensive. Just bulky.

 

[Jerry1]

In a past career, I managed the operation of research spaces with lots of different kinds of equipment and computers to control them. Surges or even brief power failures could really mess things up, so everything was connected to a UPS. They're not even particularly expensive. Just bulky.

That’s what I was thinking. Something to isolate the equipment from the power supply. I was thinking a DC motor and a battery that gets charged. Basically the same as a UPS.

 

[ls99]

Cosider a Constant voltage transformer. I used them in the Aleutian islands where power was dirty varied in voltage.
Mind you this was in the1970 ies. Am sure they stil make'em.
The units I used were made by Sola. Don't know if they still exist.
They are not particularly efficient but work like champs. Over 15 years never lost any electronics downstream.
I know nothing about the company, just used their description. They do it better than I can

What is a Constant Voltage Transformer - an introduction to the perfect sine wave

What is a Constant Voltage Transformer - an introduction to the perfect sine wave

www.aelgroup.co.uk

"The very best power protection comes from a special type of transformer known as a Constant Voltage Transformer ( CVT). Providing unparalleled reliability and conditioning performance, spikes and electrical noise are neutralised with attenuation as high as 75dB.


In addition the input (or primary) and output (or secondary) transformer windings are physically separated. Known as Galvanic isolation this separation ensures that there is no direct connection between the mains supply and load.


A CVT therefore provides an impenetrable barrier to spikes and high frequency electrical noise. This barrier also works in reverse mode to prevent a 'noisy' load from polluting the mains supply itself."

 

[ERD50]

... Anyone have suggestions for a 240 V surge suppressor? Or comments about a VFD for a well pump?

How many amps or watts?

 

[SecondAttempt]

"Bomb proof?" What am I missing?

Son had catchment AND solar on Big Island. He STILL had electrical issues (killed all his "farm raised" fish when the system gliched and shut down his aeration for several hours.)

What do you do for drinking water? Son had a filter - apparently making catchment water suitable for drinking. I never drank his water. I would have bought bottled/bulk bottled water. He never got sick, so...

Maybe "bomb proof" was not the right term. I just mean there are no ICs or transistors in the pressure switch or motor so it is not really affected by surges. I suppose a lightning strike could take out the motor start capacitor but that is a 5 minute, $10 fix.

I have not measured surges in my house but I lose things like Raspberry Pi computers, cable boxes, and so forth way to often. Spectrum replaces the cable boxes without question and I've got most other sensitive stuff on surge protectors now, not the power strips but actual surge suppressors that plug in the wall. I know often these are just a gimmick but they seem to work for me. What I have no knowledge about is high current surge suppressors. I think the motor draws 30 A at 240 V so a much bigger animal than I know anything about.

We do monitor power at work and I can tell you the HELCO power quality is really awful! We get huge spikes in voltage sometimes, well over 1000 V. (We have 480 V service at ~1000 A or more.) That kind of spike is extremely large and probably unbelievable to some of the former linemen on this forum. But...welcome to Hawaii!

I think I understand why we get surges. We are on a spur distribution line several miles from the substation. Almost everyone has catchment water for miles around so when power is restored the inrush current from everyone's pump starting must be huge. I realize the pole transformers should mostly isolate this but I suspect the have a very fragile and marginal system. Remember, they are blamed for starting the Maui fires!

We don't drink our catchment water although we use it for cooking sometimes. We mostly drink bottled water or water from jugs we fill ever week or so from a machine at the grocery store or a county spigot for that purpose. That said, we COULD drink our water. It goes through particulate and carbon filter then a UV sterilizer then we have another RO filter under the kitchen sink for cooking water and for making ice. I've tasted the water and it tastes fine most of the time. If the tank gets low and there is a lot of algae or sometimes after they add chemicals to balance the pH it can have a taste that my partner calls metallic. It's not a bad taste, just different. We have both used the water for bathing and toothbrushing for a many years with no ill effects. In all honesty, it tastes better than most city water in the US!

 

[SecondAttempt]

In a past career, I managed the operation of research spaces with lots of different kinds of equipment and computers to control them. Surges or even brief power failures could really mess things up, so everything was connected to a UPS. They're not even particularly expensive. Just bulky.

Yes, I've worked around UPS's my entire career. And come to think of it, I don't really need uninterruptible so maybe even a ferroresonant transformer without batteries could be an option. I'll look into it.

 

[SecondAttempt]

How many amps or watts?

I think it is 30 A. It's 3/4 hp so I could do the calculation. But I don't know what the VFD will be. Considering that the selling point is that it uses less power than the current system because it does not have to run at full bore every time it turns on, I suspect it will be lower.

I am an engineer but not an electrical engineer. I've worked around equipment like this my entire career but it has almost always been someone else's job to specify the electrical side of the equipment. Honestly, if it were a 60 HP motor driving a big blower I'd probably be more confident in selecting something! I'm sure I can figure this out. I just figured there were probably plenty of people here with wells that might have dealt with similar issues.

 

[SecondAttempt]

Cosider a Constant voltage transformer. I used them in the Aleutian islands where power was dirty varied in voltage.
Mind you this was in the1970 ies. Am sure they stil make'em.
The units I used were made by Sola. Don't know if they still exist.
They are not particularly efficient but work like champs. Over 15 years never lost any electronics downstream.
I know nothing about the company, just used their description. They do it better than I can

What is a Constant Voltage Transformer - an introduction to the perfect sine wave

What is a Constant Voltage Transformer - an introduction to the perfect sine wave

www.aelgroup.co.uk

"The very best power protection comes from a special type of transformer known as a Constant Voltage Transformer ( CVT). Providing unparalleled reliability and conditioning performance, spikes and electrical noise are neutralised with attenuation as high as 75dB.


In addition the input (or primary) and output (or secondary) transformer windings are physically separated. Known as Galvanic isolation this separation ensures that there is no direct connection between the mains supply and load.


A CVT therefore provides an impenetrable barrier to spikes and high frequency electrical noise. This barrier also works in reverse mode to prevent a 'noisy' load from polluting the mains supply itself."

I think we may have converged. AI says a ferroresonant transformer and a constant voltage transformer are essentially the same thing.

 

[landover]

I dont know details of the system, but if new motor needs so much protection better stick with older more reliable motor. You will have savings with new one but discount that with complexity and if you need repair of more complicated system.

I guess with older type motor , a surge protector with delay may be enough, but it is just a guess.

 

[Texas Proud]

Not sure if it works or how good it does work but when I bought my generator they installed a whole house surge protector...

It is supposed to protect everything including the 240 lines...

But, I also have UPS on most of my electronics as I do not want to have to restart them if electricity goes out... just wait a few seconds and I get generator power...

 

[Koolau]

Maybe "bomb proof" was not the right term. I just mean there are no ICs or transistors in the pressure switch or motor so it is not really affected by surges. I suppose a lightning strike could take out the motor start capacitor but that is a 5 minute, $10 fix.

I have not measured surges in my house but I lose things like Raspberry Pi computers, cable boxes, and so forth way to often. Spectrum replaces the cable boxes without question and I've got most other sensitive stuff on surge protectors now, not the power strips but actual surge suppressors that plug in the wall. I know often these are just a gimmick but they seem to work for me. What I have no knowledge about is high current surge suppressors. I think the motor draws 30 A at 240 V so a much bigger animal than I know anything about.

We do monitor power at work and I can tell you the HELCO power quality is really awful! We get huge spikes in voltage sometimes, well over 1000 V. (We have 480 V service at ~1000 A or more.) That kind of spike is extremely large and probably unbelievable to some of the former linemen on this forum. But...welcome to Hawaii!

I think I understand why we get surges. We are on a spur distribution line several miles from the substation. Almost everyone has catchment water for miles around so when power is restored the inrush current from everyone's pump starting must be huge. I realize the pole transformers should mostly isolate this but I suspect the have a very fragile and marginal system. Remember, they are blamed for starting the Maui fires!

We don't drink our catchment water although we use it for cooking sometimes. We mostly drink bottled water or water from jugs we fill ever week or so from a machine at the grocery store or a county spigot for that purpose. That said, we COULD drink our water. It goes through particulate and carbon filter then a UV sterilizer then we have another RO filter under the kitchen sink for cooking water and for making ice. I've tasted the water and it tastes fine most of the time. If the tank gets low and there is a lot of algae or sometimes after they add chemicals to balance the pH it can have a taste that my partner calls metallic. It's not a bad taste, just different. We have both used the water for bathing and toothbrushing for a many years with no ill effects. In all honesty, it tastes better than most city water in the US!

Thanks for the update. I've learned a lot. I've always enjoyed visiting Big Island but your tutorial re-convinces me I could never live there. I'm too "citified."

 

[CO-guy]

Yes, I've worked around UPS's my entire career. And come to think of it, I don't really need uninterruptible so maybe even a ferroresonant transformer without batteries could be an option. I'll look into it.

At home I use Tripp Lite products. For things like my turntable/stereo and computer/electronics, I use their power conditioning products. They look like a beefy power strip, offer virtually no real battery backup, but provide pure sine wave power.

 

[ls99]

I think we may have converged. AI says a ferroresonant transformer and a constant voltage transformer are essentially the same thing.

Yes, same thing different name. Still works on Magic, and extremely effective. Though the the early ones were a bit acoustically noisy. Could hear the 60HZ resonance from the control tank circuit working the transformer's magic..

 

[SecondAttempt]

Thanks for the update. I've learned a lot. I've always enjoyed visiting Big Island but your tutorial re-convinces me I could never live there. I'm too "citified."

Yes, it was an adjustment. And I live in a relatively modern area in a house about 25 years old. Many people are much closer to the 19th century than me.

 

[SecondAttempt]

At home I use Tripp Lite products. For things like my turntable/stereo and computer/electronics, I use their power conditioning products. They look like a beefy power strip, offer virtually no real battery backup, but provide pure sine wave power.

The surge protectors I use for my electronics in the house are Tripp Lite products.

 

[SecondAttempt]

Yes, same thing different name. Still works on Magic, and extremely effective. Though the the early ones were a bit acoustically noisy. Could hear the 60HZ resonance from the control tank circuit working the transformer's magic..

Please sir, I have a PhD in engineering and a follow masters degree in physics. There is no magic...except when it comes to magnetism. They should just call it magictism and burn all the text books.

 

[Texas Proud]

Just decided to do a search... an article about the whole house one along with local ones...

How Effective Are Surge Protectors?

While no surge protection system is 100% effective, a whole-house surge protector can significantly reduce your risk.

www.thisoldhouse.com

 

[CO-guy]

The surge protectors I use for my electronics in the house are Tripp Lite products.

I started with the surge protectors, but I have a direct-drive analog turntable connected to a pre-amp and there was noticeably less line noise with a power conditioner.