Take care guys

[azanon]

I just got word that forum staff is getting complaints about my posts. Since my primary motive has always been to share what i've learned so far in life with others instead of being stingy with it, it seems that's not the way its being received. In other words, my goal for taking time to post is to help, and apparently i'm failing at that goal.

Ever watch Dr. House? Gentle delievery of advice and knowledge has never been a strong point of mine, and it takes considerable effort on my part to do that gently enough that everyone is still happy after reading a post of mine. So much energy in fact, that they pay me quite a bit of money at my place of business for me to both dish out wisdom and to do so in such a manner that it comes off gently. Oh sure I can do it, but at a minimum, somone is going to pay me to bend so much out of my normal self.

Staff here is asking me to basically do what i have to do at work here on this forum; put on the big grin and walk on eggshells when i just dont do that without considerable amounts of energy. Its all i can do, to do this at work and get paid for it.

I'm just going to be a lurker at this point. You guys have fun.

Azanon

 

[brewer12345]

I'm sorry it came to this. I certainly wasn't one of the complainers, although we have definately locked horns once in a while. Maybe just make a post here and there, just to let us know you are still out there? I've mostly given up on TMF, so I really hope this forum doesn't disintegrate.

 

[Outtahere]

Ever watch Dr. House?   Gentle delievery of advice and knowledge has never been a strong point of mine, and it takes considerable effort on my part to do that gently enough that everyone is still happy after reading a post of mine.   

Aaaah that exact statement is why I don't post more on any forums I belong to. Here at work I'm known to be brutally honest (sigh), not always received well unfortunately.

Good luck and keep lurking

 

[unclemick]

Forum burnout?

Does such a critter exist? - I suspect so.

Heh, heh, heh.

 

[SteveR]

Azanon,

Internet forums are sometimes a difficult media in which to communicate. Since the reader has only words to go by sometimes intent and emotions are miscommunicated and the message is lost in the struggle to "read" the poster's true meaning.

I am sorry you have had your wrists slapped. I see this more times than I care to remember over the 25+ years I have been in message boards. (Yes, I rememver BBSs over a 9600 baud line :. However, I can also see the board owner and moderator's side of the issue too. We don't own the board or the space so he who pays the bills gets to make the rules. I have valued your posts and just look past the delivery method at times.

Disagreement is one of the basic keys to freedom. We can all agree to disagree in a civil manner and still be friends at the end of the day. I believe we all have something to share here and it is unfortunate that your throwing sand in the sand box has lead to your time out. Hang in there and keep us posted on how things are going.

 

[azanon]

Forum burnout?

Who me? No, i was just fine. Others are complaining.

 

[dory36]

"Brutal honesty" might be appropriate in some situations, but it is seldom effective at educating people or changing minds.

In our arena of topics, what the speaker may intend as brutal honesty sometimes comes across as being so pushy as to turn off the listener.

Let's face it -- missionaries at your front door are undoubtedly trying to preach to you because they are trying to help. But most folks I know feel that these "in your face" attempts to help are seldom effective. And they don't invite them inside to join the conversation among the rest of the friends and family.

Those who have been here a while have seen lots of turmoil, lost members, and so forth when confrontational dialog threatened to take over the forum. No one wins, no one is educated, and no one is happy.

For what it's worth, here is my fairly standard private message, in its entirety, when things start to get too heavy:

I'd appreciate it if you could help keep the even temper of things around here.

Every time things get too confrontational, I start getting complaints, and much worse, people who visit here hoping to learn about early retirement topics find it too much to deal with, and leave.

 

[azanon]

"Brutal honesty" might be appropriate in some situations, but it is seldom effective at educating people or changing minds.

In our arena of topics, what the speaker may intend as brutal honesty sometimes comes across as being so pushy as to turn off the listener.

Outtahere nailed it.   Naturally, i dont know any other way.   It is a major strain for me to post in a placated, flowery manner.   It just does not come to me naturally at all.   I would literally have to write what i wanted to say, then go back and edit the entire post to be toned down and unoffensive to the average, oversensitive individual.   That's actually what i do at work.

It might be seldom effective, but my conscience is much clearer when I share what i know that has made me successful in life to others, rather than just keeping it all to myself.   Those religious folks that bang on your door might not be getting much done, but they know when they went home they made said individual aware of what they believe is the truth, and due to that they can sleep easier.     

I'm reminded of that saying, you can lead a camel to a water hole, but you cant make him drink.  I just dont feel right if i know where the water hole is and i'm aware there are thirsty people out there.   But, if you dont want to know (evidenced by your complaints) then so be it.  That just means more water for me.

 

[dory36]

It might be seldom effective, but my conscience is much clearer when I share what i know that has made me successful in life to others, rather than just keeping it all to myself.   Those religious folks that bang on your door might not be getting much done, but they know when they went home they made said individual aware of what they believe is the truth, and due to that they can sleep easier.   

Is your goal, or the goal of the religious people in your quote, to feel good about yourself because you have said what was on your mind, or to actually reach people?

If, as you say, your goal is to help, then the effectiveness of the delivery is just as important as the message. 100% accurate message X 0% effective delivery still equals nothing being conveyed to the person you are trying to help.

 

[grumpy]

I am a regular participant on this board and I have no idea what the complaint is against azanon. Is it possible that I completely missed the threads where he is alleged to have misbehaved? Or maybe I have a thicker skin than some others here. Anyway, sorry to see you go, azanon.

Grumpy

 

[azanon]

Is your goal, or the goal of the religious people in your quote, to feel good about yourself because you have said what was on your mind, or to actually reach people?

If, as you say, your goal is to help, then the effectiveness of the delivery is just as important as the message. 100% accurate message X 0% effective delivery still equals nothing being conveyed to the person you are trying to help.

Maybe this is all the more reason, keeping what I know to myself is the right solution here.  

Again, the goal of the masses here is to get to a point where you can ER and quit having to do the things that are slowly killing us every day (at work).  For me, the thing i hate about work the most is having to placate people.    It literally exhausts me.

 

[MJ]

then the effectiveness of the delivery is just as important as the message. 100% accurate message X 0% effective delivery still equals nothing being conveyed to the person you are trying to help.

Very eloquently put.

 

[Honkie]

I am a regular participant on this board and I have no idea what the complaint is against azanon.  Is it possible that I completely missed the threads where he is alleged to have misbehaved?  Or maybe I have a thicker skin than some others here.  Anyway, sorry to see you go, azanon.

   Grumpy

I agree. I know I don't post much, but I read a lot and mostly enjoy. I can't see much wrong with azanon - I don't agree with some of what he says, but that's irrelevant. He may be edgy and passionate and angry at times, but so what. The world is no kindergarten.

I feel sometimes that complaints of any kind say more about the complainer than the person complained about, so I would like to ask;

"Who, specifically has complained about azanon and on what pretext??"

It's only fair fair for him and the rest of us see azonon's "accusers" and their reasons.

Regards

Honkie.

 

[newellcr]

Dory,

I like your standard message and am glad that you are sending it out when necessary.  There have been so many aggressive (and off topic) exchanges, that I spend a lot less time here.  I posted a few messages along these lines a while back.  Some regulars weren't so impressed which is fine.


Azanon,

I've mostly enjoyed your posts and have thought that you have something worth while to say.  I have some candor for you that is offered as a suggestion for thought.  Splashing the camel in the face with water and then banging it on the head doesn't help it drink even if it makes you feel good and is your first inclination.  Bang the wrong camel on the head and you'll have a tough time getting a GS-13 even if you are correct. 

I always figured you were too smart to go after a GS-14 position.  I don't know any happy GS-14's with a balanced life.  Good luck and I wish you success.

Kind Regards to All,

Chris

 

[73ss454]

I'm mostly just a reader of this board and enjoy it.

I feel that folks should be able to post there point of view on any topic.
If you don't agree or like the post skip over it and move on.
Everyone will not always agree no matter what.
I hate to see anyone leave the board.  

Regards to all,
JOE

 

[azanon]

Splashing the camel in the face with water and then banging it on the head doesn't help it drink even if it makes you feel good and is your first inclination. Bang the wrong camel on the head and you'll have a tough time getting a GS-13 even if you are correct.

I fully agree Newcaller! As ive been saying in so many words, i'm paid 70K a year to not only give worthwhile advise and make sound decision, but also to do so in such a way that my decisions and advise doesnt alienate anyone. That latter part is very unnatural for me, and, if you ask me, the primary reason that what i do is "work" for me. Again, I can be nice and very gentle, but it takes a lot of effort for me to do it daily at work; so much effort that i need 70K a year to preservere.

So don't worry, i am capable of it. But its why i'm paid, and i count the days like so many of us here, that i dont have to do that anymore.

To be required to do that elsewhere for free is simply out of the question.

Azanon

 

[azanon]

Dr. House though is my favorite show on TV, cause I can identify with him so much. I wish sometimes i could afford to be as brazen as him even at work. I know i cant afford that, so i just suck it up and put that big grin on my face.

I know, i'm weird. Most people are nice, and i guess i'm not nice sometimes. All i can say is i'm sorry that i wasnt made that way.

Watch the show sometimes guys if you get a chance. You can see his character struggle with it. I can so identify with him. I'm not near as brillant as he is charactered to be though, but probably not quite as abbrasive either.

 

[template]

I'm glad there is at least some moderation on the forum now. Though I've never complained to a moderator, I left the forum for several months when the nastiness and backbiting got out of hand.

It is a good idea to preview and recheck your posts before submitting them on this and in any forum.

 

[dory36]

I agree. I know I don't post much, but I read a lot and mostly enjoy. I can't see much wrong with azanon - I don't agree with some of what he says, but that's irrelevant. He may be edgy and passionate and angry at times, but so what. The world is no kindergarten.

I feel sometimes that complaints of any kind say more about the complainer than the person complained about, so I would like to ask;

"Who, specifically has complained about azanon and on what pretext??"

It's only fair fair for him and the rest of us see azonon's "accusers" and their reasons.

Regards

Honkie.

I think you are misreading the situation. Please reread my post above.

Most complaints I get are of the sort "things are too hostile around here." My response is to ask the participants to tone it down, and I do that in a private message, not in public. You can read the exact text of my message above  (but it is posted only because azanon elected to make the discussion a public one).

What would you find acceptable in your living room, with a bunch of friends and family present? If you are like me, you'd have no problem with differences of opinion and no problem with reasoned debate. If you are like me, you'd welcome them; I do that sort of thing all the time, and I relish the opportunity.  But what about when the debate and difference of opinion turns into anger and confrontation?

If you're like me, you'd ask the participants to tone it down. That's what I did.

 

[azanon]

So we're clear, i'm not pointing fault at other people. I am abbrasive at times. There is no doubt about that.

OK i'm actually busy today at work, so i better quit participating in this. Later,

Azanon

 

[azanon]

It is a good idea to preview and recheck your posts before submitting them on this and in any forum.

But that's so much like work and we really hate work here btw. I'd just rather not post at all.

 

[JPatrick]

I just got word that forum staff is getting complaints about my posts.   Since my primary motive has always been to share what i've learned so far in life with others instead of being stingy with it, it seems that's not the way its being received.   In other words, my goal for taking time to post is to help, and apparently i'm failing at that goal.

When I read your post I recognized your ID, but your profile didn't jump right out at me. (sorry about that).  So I took the time to refresh a bit by reading some of your posts.
I must say, having done  that,  your removal from the forum is the best thing that has happened since sliced bread.
JUST KIDDING AZANON.
Fact is, your are one of the posters I could probably enjoy chatting with in real time with real Corona.  
From your posts I'd say we have probably endured a few similar experiences.  
The nail has been thoroughly pounded on the head by multiple posters and even by yourself.  Your delivery sucks- - -You are clearly intelligent and well reseached, but that delivery is killing you.
It's really not about being "nice" it is about being effective.  I have a feeling that you are one of the posters here who would really like to change  hearts and minds and frankly I think that is noble.  But, if you look at the hearts and minds present for duty at this forum you find 1001 attitudes about religion, more than that about politics, guys that would like to see the Prez's chopper shot down,  and of course money yours, mine and their's.  So you don't think you have to tailor your delivery to be heard??  Please...

I haven't read anywhere that you have been banned, only tattled on and subsequently warned.  That would piss me off as well, but if you really want to share, teach, and make better you will shake this off and go for the greater good with a new flightplan inhand.
On the other hand, if you find "dressing up" the delivery to much trouble,  then you are opting out of the changing hearts and minds business. Not to worry though, someone else will pick up that task, perhaps minus the background you have,  but in possession of the delivery.

 

[OldAgePensioner]

Azanon, hang around dude or dudess, I got thick hide into which thousands of arrows can be shot without effect. Shot one my way.

a "real time real Corona". Now that's my thinking.

Acutually several of the better (knowledgeable) posters on this board have told me I'm a fool and a waste of bandwith. I think Berstein is a sham and the thread I started on that got me reported/cussed/dissed/hissed/booed/bludgeoned/smacked and that was the good part.

Think THICK SKIN

 

[laurence]

I have never moderated a board before, and because I post quite often, and have exchanged frequently with all of you, including Azanon, I think I've "moderated" maybe two times, for fear of being hypocritical.

Having said that, I found Dory's message quite mild, it's not like Azanon was banned, and it was sent privately. Azanon, please continue to post, you leaving would have the opposite effect than intended, methinks. Personally, I thought some of your posts DID cross the line, but as stated above, I had "exchanged" with you too much to feel comfortable saying something myself. I'm a big boy and can take an arrow, but my concern is we have had too many threads like this as of late (for example, Charlie) where members have said goodbye because of the confrontational tone this board has taken at times. We (the moderators) have to try and balance the needs/desires/complaints of all sides. On the one hand, we want everyone to speak their mind, and on the other, we want to maximize participation and keep from scaring away new members.

This is the only board I participate on, and with reason. Boards that are left in an "anything goes" status descend quickly into a shouting, ALL-CAPS, momma insulting, virtual anarchy. At the same time, we don't want to go "big brother" and make everyone attend their group-think sessions and always chant the party mantra of "4%! Vanguard! Live Below Your Means!". (Anybody seen Shrek? "Welcome to ER Forum, such a perfect town, now we have some rules let us lay them down...."). As always, continued input from all of you is most appreciated.

 

[azanon]

Well, how about somewhere in the middle then? I can certainly make an attempt to try to be nicer; to "tone it down", but its not going to be perfect.

Some of the responsiblity though does have to fall on the moderator and extend beyond things such as the pm i got from Dory. For instance, if a moderator allows a thread to run regarding christainity vs agnosticism (or one that evolves into that, no pun intended), it is reasonable to expect that such a thread is going to have some tension. If the moderator even allows said thread to stay open, he has to accept and expect that some people are going to get bent out of shape. To use an analogy, its not exactly fair for a moderator to pass out matchbooks and fireworks to everyone (or allow them to have them), then complain when someone ends up gets burnt later. Sure you can play with fireworks and matchbooks responsibilty, but even the most careful of us gets burned every now and then.

Azanon