Tell me about using Dividend Funds in retirement.

@Diogenes, that's not my understanding (please hit 'expand above, or it looks like I'm replying to 'youbet'). I get the drift that an 'income investor' is only concerned with their dividends, and that those dividends increase over time to provide an inflation hedge. There is little/no concern about the value of the underlying assets, as long as the cash flow is there. Am I wrong?


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Differs for different income investors. If my sole concern was dividends and income I wouldn't have large allocations in high growth/low yield dividend etfs such as VIG, CGDV, VTV, DGRW, DGRO, etc,. Some of us are looking for a balance of ever increasing YOY dividends along with growing portfolio value. Otherwise you'd see most income investors plowing in mostly CEFs, BDCs, MLPs, REITs, high yield dividend funds and covered call income funds.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing. A balanced strategy can serve multiple purposes. My primary focus is growth if you can believe it but I can get that with a strategy of growing dividends that will take care of all our income needs and provide defense during market downturns while blunting future inflation worries. For myself, I get the best of both worlds, growth and income.
 
I've seen mentioned that income investing can be more difficult and time consuming. Again this depends on the type of investments. If you're dealing with the aforementioned high yielding investment vehicles (CEFs, MLPs, BDCs, etc,.), sure they're more hands on and you need to pay attention to market conditions. If your dealing with dividend growth etfs spread across a wide spectrum of the market, I see no reason why it couldn't be a set it and forget it portfolio. A simple backtest shows these type of investments largely mirror the S&P with some lag and in certain market conditions actually outperform.

Perhaps I have blinders on but I know what I want to accomplish and how I want to get there. To me I look at the numbers and I know right away what makes sense and what has the highest probability of getting me there with the least amount of risk. Value and quality with some growth wrapped in a portfolio that should grow in income by at least 5% a year without the need to make yearly decisions on what I have to sell.
 
A general question on funds geared to providing high dividends. Is there any threat of the funds losing long term value by focusing too much on paying dividends and not enough focus on holding its' value over time ?

I'm not talking about market downturns or corrections.

I do like the idea of "setting and forgetting" part of my portfolio with some dividend funds to cover some of our annual living expense. While the rest of the portfolio is in a fund focused on growth that pays little to no dividends.
 
Biggest problem of income investing
* It's based on theory.
* Higher income or diversification don't guarantee better performance or lower volatility.
* It's based on I feel, it works for me, I love it because it replaces my pay check...none of these are based on basic math, performance and volatility.
The ones who use it refuse to look or discuss performance or volatility because these are the only tools that can quantify investment success.
* If income is superior, every paper/research/article should prove it easily and we should have a much higher % of funds investing this way.
The reality is different, the richest investors or the most successful have concentrated portfolio and are not obsessed about income. They would buy a security based on potential performance and volatility/risk first.
* Why income investing has been promoted by a lot more by "experts" that want to charge you money?
 
A general question on funds geared to providing high dividends. Is there any threat of the funds losing long term value by focusing too much on paying dividends and not enough focus on holding its' value over time ?
Well, the impossible-to-avoid TANSTAAFL rule applies: When a dividend is paid, the value of the company goes down by the amount of the dividend. It's exactly the same as if you took a $20 bill from your wallet and gave it to someone. Your net worth goes down by $20.
 
Historically, Dividend funds do not decrease in value over time. Look at the long term performance of NOBL, SCHD and others.

As to covered call funds such as JEPI, JEPQ and others - I don't think there's enough years of data to determine the long-term performance.
 
Historically, Dividend funds do not decrease in value over time. Look at the long term performance of NOBL, SCHD and others. ...
Paying a dividend reduces the value of the firm. That's just simple arithmetic. Long term performance is irrelevant to the calculation.

Said another way, paying a dividend reduces the company's potential for long term growth. It may still grow, and many do, but the dividends are not free money.
 
Biggest problem of income investing
* It's based on theory.
* Higher income or diversification don't guarantee better performance or lower volatility.
* It's based on I feel, it works for me, I love it because it replaces my pay check...none of these are based on basic math, performance and volatility.
The ones who use it refuse to look or discuss performance or volatility because these are the only tools that can quantify investment success.
* If income is superior, every paper/research/article should prove it easily and we should have a much higher % of funds investing this way.
The reality is different, the richest investors or the most successful have concentrated portfolio and are not obsessed about income. They would buy a security based on potential performance and volatility/risk first.
* Why income investing has been promoted by a lot more by "experts" that want to charge you money?
I think you're arguing against an imagined assertion that income investing is "superior." In fact, it's just an investment style reflecting the preferences or needs of the investor. Bond funds (of any sort) shouldn't be expected to generate long term total returns competitive with stocks. You've developed a very successful investment strategy that fits you and yours. Me too -- but mine is income oriented and fits me and mine.
Regards, Dick
 
OldShooter - I don't think you fully understand dividends. Maybe you should go watch the video in post #68.
Well, we can disagree on that. I looked at the video but got bored about halfway through. Agreed that dividends can be made complicated, especially by those who are selling funds of one kind or another. But the basic arithmetic remains the same: Give away $20 and your firm is worth $20 less.
 
Biggest problem of income investing
* It's based on theory.
* Higher income or diversification don't guarantee better performance or lower volatility.
* It's based on I feel, it works for me, I love it because it replaces my pay check...none of these are based on basic math, performance and volatility.
The ones who use it refuse to look or discuss performance or volatility because these are the only tools that can quantify investment success.
* If income is superior, every paper/research/article should prove it easily and we should have a much higher % of funds investing this way.
The reality is different, the richest investors or the most successful have concentrated portfolio and are not obsessed about income. They would buy a security based on potential performance and volatility/risk first.
* Why income investing has been promoted by a lot more by "experts" that want to charge you money?
Your discussion about investing and analysts focus on the rich. But the reality is that their financial goals are very different from those of most investors.
Wealthiest investors often don’t actually need income from their portfolios. Their wealth is tied up in massive stock holdings that continue to grow over time and become placed in trusts that allow the rich to borrow against them and never pay any taxes. Because of that, their main focus is usually avoiding taxes while letting their assets compound for as long as possible.

Most regular investors are in a completely different situation.
At some point, people want their investments to start paying them back. Whether it’s early retirement, cutting back on work, or simply covering part of their living expenses, investors eventually need income, not just a higher account balance on paper.

That’s where dividends can play an important role.

Dividends provide cash flow without requiring you to sell shares. For many investors, that predictability matters. Instead of worrying about market timing or deciding when to sell, a dividend portfolio can produce regular income that shows up automatically.

And the tax treatment isn’t nearly as bad as many people assume. In fact, for a retired couple with little other income, it’s possible to receive around $98,000 per year in qualified dividends from a taxable account and still owe zero federal income tax.

In other words, dividends can provide both income and tax efficiency for the people who actually need their investments to support their lifestyle. This is not the case for large portfolios for very high wealth individuals.

This is why debates about dividends often miss the bigger picture. Critics tend to frame everything from the perspective of ultra-wealthy investors who are trying to maximize long-term asset growth and avoid taxes which dividends can trigger. This is actually what Warren Buffet advocates. But most investors aren’t billionaires with endless time horizons and a multimillion dollar expense account..

They’re people who eventually want their money to produce income they can live on.
And for that goal, dividends can be one of the simplest and most practical tools available.
 
A general question on funds geared to providing high dividends. Is there any threat of the funds losing long term value by focusing too much on paying dividends and not enough focus on holding its' value over time ?

I'm not talking about market downturns or corrections.

I do like the idea of "setting and forgetting" part of my portfolio with some dividend funds to cover some of our annual living expense. While the rest of the portfolio is in a fund focused on growth that pays little to no dividends.


Yes. Some funds concentrate on the highest yielding stock without any regard as to why they are paying such high dividends. Absolutely zero screeners for quality, free cash flow or safety. Funds such as DIV, SDIV, KNG, SPYD and anything with the word Yieldmax in it have mediocre to downright awful returns and almost no dividend growth.

2 - 3% dividend yield seems to be the sweet spot but dividend growth rate is what I care about most. 7 - 10% average dividend growth is my usual target unless it has something else that catches my eye such as tech oriented with high growth rate.

An example for what you might be looking to accomplish is SCHD paired with SCHG.
 
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Paying a dividend reduces the value of the firm. That's just simple arithmetic. Long term performance is irrelevant to the calculation.

Said another way, paying a dividend reduces the company's potential for long term growth. It may still grow, and many do, but the dividends are not free money.


I'm pretty sure dividends fall from the free money tree.

Look, you're not someone I want to get into an argument with. Your investment logic is more than sound and has a proven track record of success as do you. I'm not trying to sway you to my thinking.

What myself and some others are doing is offering a different approach that we believe is just as sound. When Mr Market decides it's 1999 again we want to be able to take emotion out of the equation knowing we'll be getting the majority of our annual income needs without having to sell shares at a 40 - 60% clip.

This isn't a fancy new concept. Dividend investing has been popular for the better part of a century because it just works. Sure if I could have a mulligan for the past 15 years I'd just buy the triple Q's and be done with it. But I'm quite certain the next 15 years will throw some surprises out there and if there's one thing I like more than making money, it's keeping it.
 
Be sure to ead the sub forum policy.

This isn't the place to argue about index investing vs. Active Investing.
If that was directed at my post above you, I'm not arguing index versus active - I'm stating that it's difficult to determine how well a dividend focused portfolio would survive the past bear cycles. How does one develop confidence in the approach? I know, past performance is not any guarantee of the future, but it's about all we have. And the indexes are a fairly straightforward measure of past performance that several tools like FIRECalc provide. How is this accomplished for a dividend portfolio?
 
* Higher income or diversification don't guarantee better performance or lower volatility.
That's the key question right there. What does the aggregated data say? Does a strategy oriented towards dividends have the side-benefit of also offering lower volatility... or not?
 
I'm a simple man, just trying to keep it simple.
The bad news: My portfolio is down 4.5% over the past three weeks.
The worse news: It's could drop another 5% by April 1st.
The good news: I know exactly how much I'm going to be paid April 1st: the same as I've been getting paid as months before and thankful that I don't have to stress over which stocks to sell low in order to make my property tax payment.

YMMV

Again, broadly, do I care if I could gain another few percent taking a different tack? No. This works for me.
 
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I'm just trying to keep it simple.
The bad news: My portfolio is down 4.5% over the past three weeks.
The worse news: It's could drop another 5% by April 1st.
The good news: I know exactly how much I'm going to be paid April 1st: the same as I've been getting paid as months before and thankful that I don't have to stress over which stocks to sell low in order to make my property tax payment.

YMMV
Yep - right there with you. Except next month I will be paid a little bit more than this month due to a little strategic buying and selling.
 
I think you're arguing against an imagined assertion that income investing is "superior." In fact, it's just an investment style reflecting the preferences or needs of the investor. Bond funds (of any sort) shouldn't be expected to generate long term total returns competitive with stocks. You've developed a very successful investment strategy that fits you and yours. Me too -- but mine is income oriented and fits me and mine.
Regards, Dick
You and me don't ignore TR or volatility and we both trade our funds.
If we know there is a good chance our funds will lose, we will sell.
On the other hand, many income investors would hold claiming it's a better choice even after $100K is just worth $90K after all the income.
A 10% loss is just a 10% loss.
They even claim it about stocks. A good friend of mine has a pension that covers all his expenses. After he retired in 2010, he decided to invest 50/50 growth/ income stock and why he bought 20 stocks at 10/10 among them MSFT/IBM.
I asked him did you know that MSFT his better? He said of course I did but I did it any because I wanted to invest in income stocks regardless. A simple chart proved to him how wrong he was.
 
I'm a simple man, just trying to keep it simple.
The bad news: My portfolio is down 4.5% over the past three weeks.
The worse news: It's could drop another 5% by April 1st.
The good news: I know exactly how much I'm going to be paid April 1st: the same as I've been getting paid as months before and thankful that I don't have to stress over which stocks to sell low in order to make my property tax payment.

YMMV

Again, broadly, do I care if I could gain another few percent taking a different tack? No. This works for me.
That's all well and good, but I'd say it's misplaced to say that the other approach leads to "stress over which stocks to sell low in order to make my property tax payment.". First, a typical 70/30 portfolio is kicking off some divs, ~ 1.8%, so sales are only needed to cover the delta between that and your chosen SWR. And if stocks are down, you sell from the fixed side, that's what it is there for (and vice-versa). That's also simple - two funds and that's it. No analyzing yields, risk, will stock XYZ continue to grow it's dividends, etc. And that can be done just once or twice a year, no big deal.

If you are not selling, then your divs must be somewhat greater than your needs (unless you somehow manage to match exactly match your needs), so you have to make a buy decision to keep it invested - that's actually slightly more complicated Unless you only have one or two investments) than selling from the two funds I have.
 
This might be over simple. Say I have $1M to invest in equities (mutual funds), to generate some income and grow the rest. Of this, I want to have $25,000 to put towards living expense each year. 2.5% of the invested asset in the mutual fund.

One option seems to be, buy a mutual fund that pays 2.5% a year in dividends. Pay taxes (ordinary income?) and let the rest remain and grow. Dividends pay me $25,000 to live on. Before taxes.

Option #2. Invest in an index fund such as VG Total Stock Index, or its close cousins SP 500 or capital Appreciation Fund and simply withdrew 2.5% each year (as LTG) and let the rest remain and grow. I withdraw (sell) $25,000 to live on. Before taxes.

Either way I have my $25,000 to live on, before taxes, and the rest remain in my mutual funds to keep growing. Am I far off?

Assuming I am now 60 and started withdrawing like this for 25 years with a $1M nest egg, which method do you think would have more money in the account at 20 or 30 years?

Between the two I prefer option #2 because it lets me keep some control over annual withdrawals and income. I have been buying mutual funds of different variaties since 1987 and haven't sold one yet.

The advantage I see in option #1 is kind of like getting an allowance. Like this.... "Take your $25,000 and when its gone you're done" Next year you get another $25,000 no matter what. Sort of like built in discipline. Not all bad.

If I can worry about this.......Don't I have problems.? I am fortunate, thanks for your guidance everyone. We are all blessed.
 
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Cash/cash-equivalents or "safe money" is where I want my year's supply for paying living expenses--I want zero volatility. Something like a MM or HYSA is safe money to me. SGOV, I suppose comes close. But the funds that use options don't sound like what I consider safe money. Maybe it's just that I don't understand them. You have no doubt done the research and are comfortable with them. A bond ladder (or CDs back when they were paying more) is what I think of as the engine for steady base income year over year to mitigate SORR. Bond ladders come with their own risks--reinvestment risk, mainly--so they don't fall under my safe money umbrella, either. Anyway, on the topic of this thread, I would consider adding a dividend fund to take on a portion of the income-generation role.
My understanding is that MM at least at brokerages like Vanguard, FIDO, etc are in vested in ST treasuries, kind of like SGOV and CSHI. Like all NEOS funds (SPYI, QQQI) CSHI layers in a call option but is still almost all (~98%) ST treasuries. I will cannabalize my SORR funds in reverse order of conservatism if it gets really bad, meanwhile I will enjoy the ~5.5% yield that four years of spend throws off into my portfolio. Mainly I will continue to grow those positions, but will reinvest a little in other higher yield positions in the income portion of my portfolio. To each his own, YMMV.
 
This might be over simple. Say I have $1M to invest in equities (mutual funds), to generate some income and grow the rest. Of this, I want to have $25,000 to put towards living expense each year. 2.5% of the invested asset in the mutual fund.

One option seems to be, buy a mutual fund that pays 2.5% a year in dividends. Pay taxes (ordinary income?) and let the rest remain and grow. Dividends pay me $25,000 to live on. Before taxes.

Option #2. Invest in an index fund such as VG Total Stock Index, or its close cousins SP 500 or capital Appreciation Fund and simply withdrew 2.5% each year (as LTG) and let the rest remain and grow. I withdraw (sell) $25,000 to live on. Before taxes.

Either way I have my $25,000 to live on, before taxes, and the rest remain in my mutual funds to keep growing. Am I far off?

Assuming I am now 60 and started withdrawing like this for 25 years with a $1M nest egg, which method do you think would have more money in the account at 20 or 30 years?

Between the two I prefer option #2 because it lets me keep some control over annual withdrawals and income. I have been buying mutual funds of different variaties since 1987 and haven't sold one yet.

The advantage I see in option #1 is kind of like getting an allowance. Like this.... "Take your $25,000 and when its gone you're done" Next year you get another $25,000 no matter what. Sort of like built in discipline. Not all bad.

If I can worry about this.......Don't I have problems.? I am fortunate, thanks for your guidance everyone. We are all blessed.
Will you still take the $25K from portfolio option 2 if you are down 10% when the time comes?
 
Option 3 can be invested in the SP500 or another fund.
Set up a auto monthly sell on a specific day for a specific amount for months/years.
You just created a reliable monthly income similar to higher income funds.
The only 2 questions for the future: what is the TR and/or what is the risk-adjusted returns?
The daily fluctuations or selling shares don't matter, just the above two.
I don't like the above, I sell when I need to.
 
This might be over simple. Say I have $1M to invest in equities (mutual funds), to generate some income and grow the rest. Of this, I want to have $25,000 to put towards living expense each year. 2.5% of the invested asset in the mutual fund...
I do something like this except that my stock funds are in tax-deferred, hence RMDs up around 5% now. And all taxed as Ordinary Income, of course.

I have additional stock fund money in Roth and taxable accounts, but no need to withdraw any from those on a regular basis...
 
A general question on funds geared to providing high dividends. Is there any threat of the funds losing long term value by focusing too much on paying dividends and not enough focus on holding its' value over time ?

I'm not talking about market downturns or corrections.

I do like the idea of "setting and forgetting" part of my portfolio with some dividend funds to cover some of our annual living expense. While the rest of the portfolio is in a fund focused on growth that pays little to no dividends.
You have to watch NAV stability and over distribution in particular. If you look at long term performance and see a general downward trend, stay away. But that is kind of common sense. It doesn’t take a lot of analysis to eyeball the graph on SA or other sites like CEFCONNECT, etc.

You also need to time your buys appropriately, especially CEFs. They can trade above or below NAV. If a fund you like is trading below NAV, it might be an opportunity to start a position. I say might b/c I do a bit of due diligence, and then start with a fractional position and fill it out over time.

I am no expert, I just read and learn from more experienced people on this board and other source, then I act accordingly.
 
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