The Stoicism Thread

[ER Eddie]

Or, put another way, "we judge ourselves by our intentions but others by their actions." Much easier to judge Seneca from a distance, harder to put yourself in his shoes...

Yes, indeed.

That reminds me of what I heard another stoic philosopher say once. He said, "Never judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. That way, when you judge him, you'll be a mile away, and you'll have his shoes."

 

[Drewskers]

Those searching for a translation of The Enchiridion that they like may find this website useful, it displays up to five translations side-by-side for comparative reading:

https://enchiridion.tasuki.org/display:Code:ec,twh,pem,sw/section:meta

 

[Rianne]

I wonder what Epictetus would think about the U.S. in the last 2 weeks.

"Things not in our power include the body, property, reputation, office, and, in a word, everything which is not our own doing. Things in our power are by nature free, unhindered, untrammelled; things not in our power are weak, servile, subject to hindrance, dependent on others. Remember then that if you imagine that what is naturally slavish is free, and what is naturally another’s is your own, you will be hampered, you will mourn, you will be put to confusion, you will blame gods and men; but if you think that only your own belongs to you, and that what is another’s is indeed another’s, no one will ever put compulsion or hindrance on you, you will blame none, you will accuse none, you will do nothing against your will, no one will harm you, you will have no enemy, for no harm can touch you."

"Make it your study then to confront every harsh impression with the words, ‘You are but an impression, and not at all what you seem to be’. Then test it by those rules that you possess; and first by this—the chief test of all—‘Is it concerned with what is in our power or with what is not in our power?’ And if it is concerned with what is not in our power, be ready with the answer that it is nothing to you."

 

[ER Eddie]

Yeah, I was thinking about that issue again this morning -- what is in my control vs. what isn't; putting my focus/energy on the former, and accepting rather than resenting or stressing over the latter.

I remember first understanding this principle several decades ago. I think it was when I was in my late 20s and going through ACoA groups. They adapted the Serenity Prayer, borrowed from AA, which borrowed from Reinhold Niebuhr, who borrowed from Epictetus.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change (everyone else),
The courage to change the one I can (me),
And the wisdom to know the difference.

It's not just people, of course, but events. ACoA was all about dysfunctional relationships and codependence, though, so they put the emphasis on that.


Anyhow, the thing that strikes me is how often I circle back to this lesson. I'm 58 now, so it's been 30 years, and I keep being reminded of it. I spent a good part of the last 30 years being reminded of the importance of accepting things you can't control. I had many long talks with a friend about it. In my career, I even gave talks on it. I've diligently tried to apply the ideas. I've read the same principle in different form probably several hundred, maybe a thousand times by now.

It keeps coming back, though -- as something very simple, very fundamental, and very easy to lose track of. There are things we can control (mostly, us), and things we can't (mostly, everything else). If we get bent out of shape over stuff we can't control, we're just knocking our heads against a wall. Attempts to control what we can't control not only fail, they often backfire and make the problem worse.

I'm not at all preaching from the mountain about this. I am stunned at how often I fall into the same traps, over and over, and how after decades of being reminded, I still need reminders. "The lesson keeps repeating until you get it."

This one is deceptively simple. You look at it and think, "Oh yeah, sure, I get it." But then, when you pay close attention, you see yourself getting wrapped up in things you can't control, day after day.

That process of acceptance or letting go of control is something you have to repeat over and over. At least that's been true for me.

 

[Rianne]

God, grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change (everyone else),
The courage to change the one I can (me),
And the wisdom to know the difference.

This one is deceptively simple. You look at it and think, "Oh yeah, sure, I get it." But then, when you pay close attention, you see yourself getting wrapped up in things you can't control, day after day.

That process of acceptance or letting go of control is something you have to repeat over and over. At least that's been true for me.

Social media obviously not around during Epictetus era. Opinions, nastiness, ignorant irrational blurts of stupidity are rampant. It's hard navigate through the noise to find intelligent relevant opinion. Expressing opinion relieves some of my frustration over events. Action does not always create reaction. I posted a strong opinion on our local Nextdoor site. I got blah, blah, blah in response. Helps me understand my neighbors. Once the opinion is out in the universe, I feel better. Who cares how others respond. But I don't want to turn into a cold hearted "I only care about myself" person. I am responsible for myself but I have enough empathy or compassion to reach out when someone is suffering...to an extent. And I'm beginning to voice my opinion about an injustice to humanity.

 

[REWahoo]

... Opinions...are rampant. It's hard navigate through the noise to find intelligent relevant opinion. Expressing opinion relieves some of my frustration over events. Action does not always create reaction. I posted a strong opinion on our local Nextdoor site. I got blah, blah, blah in response. Helps me understand my neighbors. Once the opinion is out in the universe, I feel better. Who cares how others respond. But I don't want to turn into a cold hearted "I only care about myself" person. I am responsible for myself but I have enough empathy or compassion to reach out when someone is suffering...to an extent. And I'm beginning to voice my opinion about an injustice to humanity.

...

 

[Rianne]

How is it that Buzz Lightyear speaks the wisdom of the ages in one sentence?

 

[48Fire]

I'm in the IKEA return line, practicing my Stoicism skills [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

 

[48Fire]

I am very grateful for this thread, and those contributing. I am very new to Stocism, but it’s a natural progression on my journey.

About a year ago, I suffered some severe emotional trauma. It felt like I would fall abruptly into a dark, deep hole, and it seemed quite likely that I would not get out. Fortunately, my loving wife reached down, and she pulled me out of the hole. I was considering counseling, but we agreed that she would be best to help me.

One of the first things my wife suggested I do was to recite the Serenity Prayer five times a day. “God, grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the Courage to change the things I can, and the Wisdom to know the difference.” It was enlightening to discover that this is one of the key foundations of Stoicism, so I was anxious to explore more. This prayer and philosophy allowed my wife to continue to be a happy person, despite her many challenges in her early life before we met. I often wondered, how did she survive?

Chapter 4, “Take Another’s Perspective”, of the Stoicicm Handbook, hit home. My wife has incredible empathy, and this comes naturally for her. For me, it takes more thinking, more practice. And my lack of empathy can lead to relationship issues.

I am also enjoying the audio book, “How to think like a Roman Emperor, the Stoic Philosophy of Marcus Aurelius. It’s very insightful, especially to my individual challenges.

So it’s been a year since I hit the rock bottom of the deepest, darkest hole I wasn’t expecting to ever be in, especially at age 59. But with help, a lot of looks in the mirror, and a loving wife, I am continuing to improve.

Thanks so much for everyone contributing to this thread. At this point in my life, it’s WAY more important than 4% SWR and other financial tasks

 

[Rianne]

I am very grateful for this thread, and those contributing. I am very new to Stocism, but it’s a natural progression on my journey.

About a year ago, I suffered some severe emotional trauma. It felt like I would fall abruptly into a dark, deep hole, and it seemed quite likely that I would not get out. Fortunately, my loving wife reached down, and she pulled me out of the hole. I was considering counseling, but we agreed that she would be best to help me.

One of the first things my wife suggested I do was to recite the Serenity Prayer five times a day. “God, grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the Courage to change the things I can, and the Wisdom to know the difference.” It was enlightening to discover that this is one of the key foundations of Stoicism, so I was anxious to explore more. This prayer and philosophy allowed my wife to continue to be a happy person, despite her many challenges in her early life before we met. I often wondered, how did she survive?

Chapter 4, “Take Another’s Perspective”, of the Stoicicm Handbook, hit home. My wife has incredible empathy, and this comes naturally for her. For me, it takes more thinking, more practice. And my lack of empathy can lead to relationship issues.

I am also enjoying the audio book, “How to think like a Roman Emperor, the Stoic Philosophy of Marcus Aurelius. It’s very insightful, especially to my individual challenges.

So it’s been a year since I hit the rock bottom of the deepest, darkest hole I wasn’t expecting to ever be in, especially at age 59. But with help, a lot of looks in the mirror, and a loving wife, I am continuing to improve.

Thanks so much for everyone contributing to this thread. At this point in my life, it’s WAY more important than 4% SWR and other financial tasks

Thanks for sharing that experience. I believe a mantra as the serenity prayer is extremely helpful. One suggestion PBS: National Parks: America's Best Idea is inspirational. My new hero is John Muir. He was severely abused as a child. His father, a preacher, made him memorize the Bible. Yosemite pulled him out of a deep depression, his story is quite amazing. I find stoicism and nature go hand in hand.

 

[sengsational]

I got Donald Robertson's book from the library a few days ago. I was letting the virus age off it before reading, hehe! We can review the book here, if you're interested in sharing your perspective on the book.

 

[Nemo2]

About a year ago, I suffered some severe emotional trauma. It felt like I would fall abruptly into a dark, deep hole, and it seemed quite likely that I would not get out.

BTDT.... 14 months ago, after nearly dying of sepsis, I went through a (mercifully brief) episode of PTSD, not uncommon under the circumstances.

Long gone, and I hope there are no relapses, (again, not totally uncommon).....it's a bitch. Good luck!

 

[48Fire]

I got Donald Robertson's book from the library a few days ago. I was letting the virus age off it before reading, hehe! We can review the book here, if you're interested in sharing your perspective on the book.

That would be great! Yeah, no virus risk for the electronic, audio version

 

[48Fire]

Thanks for sharing that experience. I believe a mantra as the serenity prayer is extremely helpful. One suggestion PBS: National Parks: America's Best Idea is inspirational. My new hero is John Muir. He was severely abused as a child. His father, a preacher, made him memorize the Bible. Yosemite pulled him out of a deep depression, his story is quite amazing. I find stoicism and nature go hand in hand.

Wow! Thanks for sharing that. We are real close to buying a SUV and camper, and I definitely want to go west to Yellowstone, Yosimite, and other places. Our daughter just told us yesterday she wants to take her little girls to Yellowstone, since that was her favorite trip ever, when she was about 9 years old.

 

[48Fire]

BTDT.... 14 months ago, after nearly dying of sepsis, I went through a (mercifully brief) episode of PTSD, not uncommon under the circumstances.

Long gone, and I hope there are no relapses, (again, not totally uncommon).....it's a bitch. Good luck!

Oh my, good luck with that. That's pretty scary

And thanks, I am doing much better, and I still might do the counseling route, because I thought this would be done by now, and I would "just get over it" as they say.

The other night, my wife surprised me out of the blue, and she asked me what percentage of time I was happy. I answered 90%, which I thought was pretty good. She was shocked, and I thought she might think that was too high, but she thought it would be higher. She said she is 99% or higher

 

[Nemo2]

Oh my, good luck with that. That's pretty scary

I even went as far as Googling how long it takes to die if you cease eating/drinking.

Trying to tell myself "Snap out of it" wasn't very successful...then almost as quickly as it started it was gone. A frightening experience.

 

[48Fire]

Wow, for sure, glad you are doing better. Thanks for sharing

I even went as far as Googling how long it takes to die if you cease eating/drinking.

Trying to tell myself "Snap out of it" wasn't very successful...then almost as quickly as it started it was gone. A frightening experience.

 

[ER Eddie]

Thanks so much for everyone contributing to this thread. At this point in my life, it’s WAY more important than 4% SWR and other financial tasks

I second that. Peace of mind and contentment are a lot more important than finance, although everyone's attention is on the latter, probably because it's concrete, whereas attaining happiness/contentment and peace of mind is more complex and individualistic.

One of the things stoicism teaches, actually, is that you can be tranquil and content in all sorts of circumstances, including ones that most people would consider terribly impoverished.

I'm glad I don't have to test that principle out personally, but it's good to know.

 

[aja8888]

I even went as far as Googling how long it takes to die if you cease eating/drinking.

What did you come up with?

 

[Nemo2]

What did you come up with?

Can't recall exactly, but at the time I remember thinking "That's doable". A very peculiar situation and one I had no control over......hopefully never again.

https://www.sepsis.org/news/ptsd-lasting-effect-sepsis-survivors/

But many who survive serious illnesses like sepsis also find they may experience other emotions. They may be angry, fearful, anxious, or depressed. For some, these feelings pass after they process their experience. For others, the bad feelings linger and result in lasting feelings that are difficult to understand.

Post-sepsis syndrome is an umbrella term for many of the physical and mental problems that may affect sepsis survivors, including post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Sepsis survivors are more likely to develop symptoms of PTSD than other patients who had been treated in an intensive care unit.

 

[ER Eddie]

That's interesting. I had bad sepsis as a result of a surgery gone awry, and I did experience very significant mental and emotional sequella following that, as well as some PTSD-like symptoms. I'm not surprised. It was the worst (physical) experience of my life.

 

[Sanstar]

A week after the birth of my last child, more than 30 years ago, I felt so sad and tired I sent for my MIL to come take care of my 3 kids, all under 5 years. There were days I just couldn’t find the energy to get out of bed. I berated myself for being so lazy when I had so much to be thankful for and so many in this world did so much better with so much less, ect.....

It passed in a couple of weeks. The life lesson I learned is when it comes to feelings, it not possible to “snap out of it, suck it up or get over it.” My sainted MIL (a nurse) was supportive, kind, non-judgmental, compassionate and respectful.

When someone I know is in a dark place, all I want to know is what can I do right now to help. Reassure him/her they are not alone, they will get to the other side of these feelings and especially how they feel right now is not their fault and not their future. It’s just right now.

My little episode made me a more kind, compassionate person towards anyone experiencing mental health issues. I hated those couple weeks but believe they served me well.

Just my $.02 worth.

 

[ER Eddie]

Very true. There is nothing LESS helpful to a depressed person than to tell them to "snap out of it," "look on the bright side," etc. Feelings have a course of their own sometimes, and the more you do to fight/resist them, the worse pit you dig yourself into. There are definitely limits to the applicability of stoicism or cognitive therapy. Sometimes what you need is acceptance and validation.

Grief would be an example. When you're grieving the loss of someone, the last thing I would find helpful would be stoic philosophers talking about how death comes to everyone, it is no use fretting about something you cannot control like death, etc.

I remember when I was reading Seneca, some of the stuff he said about death just sounded just heartless. Something like, "You never owned your son, so why would you weep that he has been reclaimed by the one who does? He was not yours to begin with." I know it was a different era, when life was cheap -- but still...

We've learned a lot about the proper care and feeding of human beings in the past two millenia. The stoic approach to emotional life often leaves a lot to be desired. It has its strengths, but it has plenty of weaknesses, too. A sort of sterile, cold intellectual approach to emotional life is one of them. I'm a sensitive type personality, so I notice that quite a bit, and it's one reason I can't read too much stoicism without needing a break.

 

[48Fire]

A week after the birth of my last child, more than 30 years ago, I felt so sad and tired I sent for my MIL to come take care of my 3 kids, all under 5 years. There were days I just couldn’t find the energy to get out of bed. I berated myself for being so lazy when I had so much to be thankful for and so many in this world did so much better with so much less, ect.....

It passed in a couple of weeks. The life lesson I learned is when it comes to feelings, it not possible to “snap out of it, suck it up or get over it.” My sainted MIL (a nurse) was supportive, kind, non-judgmental, compassionate and respectful.

When someone I know is in a dark place, all I want to know is what can I do right now to help. Reassure him/her they are not alone, they will get to the other side of these feelings and especially how they feel right now is not their fault and not their future. It’s just right now.

My little episode made me a more kind, compassionate person towards anyone experiencing mental health issues. I hated those couple weeks but believe they served me well.

Just my $.02 worth.

Good advice, thanks.

 

[48Fire]

Very true. There is nothing LESS helpful to a depressed person than to tell them to "snap out of it," "look on the bright side," etc. Feelings have a course of their own sometimes, and the more you do to fight/resist them, the worse pit you dig yourself into. There are definitely limits to the applicability of stoicism or cognitive therapy. Sometimes what you need is acceptance and validation.

Grief would be an example. When you're grieving the loss of someone, the last thing I would find helpful would be stoic philosophers talking about how death comes to everyone, it is no use fretting about something you cannot control like death, etc.

I remember when I was reading Seneca, some of the stuff he said about death just sounded just heartless. Something like, "You never owned your son, so why would you weep that he has been reclaimed by the one who does? He was not yours to begin with." I know it was a different era, when life was cheap -- but still...

We've learned a lot about the proper care and feeding of human beings in the past two millenia. The stoic approach to emotional life often leaves a lot to be desired. It has its strengths, but it has plenty of weaknesses, too. A sort of sterile, cold intellectual approach to emotional life is one of them. I'm a sensitive type personality, so I notice that quite a bit, and it's one reason I can't read too much stoicism without needing a break.

Good insights, and I agree with the "snap out of it part". It's a little tougher than that sometimes.

Last week I was cruising along with the Stoicism and associated readings and high as a kite Then I tripped and the bottom dropped out. I didn't feel like reading about it or listening. But I am good again, and it was just another lesson I am trying to learn