This is what $15K in batteries looks like (for my solar panels)...

[Flieger]

Life is pretty short and what else are you going to spend money on? I am a big fan of doing fun hobbyist stuff even if it really doesn't check the pure financial return box.

I just ordered two more of the 200 watt CIGS solar panels you can roll up. Those bad boys are $400 a pop, but I have all three now rolled up into a cylinder that is 28 inches long and 11 inches diameter and weighs 18 pounds. That is 600 watts of solar that fits easily in a duffle bag and stows in the aft locker of our small sailboat. Financially though, they will never "pay" for themselves, even if they last 5 or more years.

I see a couple of those (200W CIGS) on Amazon for $250. 12v though...

Flieger

 

[Fermion]

I see a couple of those (200W CIGS) on Amazon for $250. 12v though...

No to hijack OP's thread (well ok, blatant mini hijack) but the ones I got (BougeRV 200 watt YUMA CIGS with holes) are about $460 on Amazon. With a coupon code, I got them for $400 on BougeRV site. They seem quality made...there are some by Rich solar and Renogy that have had delamination issues. Even these BougeRV have a warning not to peel off the protective film covering the CIGS cells, so they will probably eventually start to delaminate as well. My use case is to keep them protected most of the time in storage, and only have them on the boom tent when we are motoring on the river or gulf during our loop trip. I am still terrified of going up the Ohio with only 10kWh and 600 watts of solar. Google earth shows sooooo many huge tug barges near the Olmsted locks, and current can be 2 or 3 knots. Trying to figure out if I can cram another 5kWh somewhere forward.

 

[Koolau]

Everything is completely automatic as far as the switching goes. Yes, the grid is for backup and we rarely use it nine months out of the year. During the three coldest months, at least before the latest upgrades, we normally popped back onto the grid every other day from 3AM to 8AM. There just wasn't enough battery power to carry us all night with the heaters running full blast trying to maintain temps in my horribly insulated workshops. I would like to think our upgrades will allow us to only use the grid 3 or 4 times per month this winter. When we move into our super efficient house I don't think we will ever use the grid unless the panels are covered with snow. That might be two days per year. The top graph shows the sun (yellow) and our electric consumption (blue) for the week. Grid usage (red) is zero. The bottom graph shows the batteries in green (0-100%) for the week. You can tell it was pretty cloudy for the past five days so it didn't get to 100%. I also doubled the number of batteries and they started at only 30% charged. It will take a few sunny days to get them up to 100%. The new automatic boxes and another 18 solar panels (upgrading from 42 to 60) should be online in a week or two and really help out.

Click on the graph and notice that the sun seems to drop to nothing about half way through the second day. The batteries hit 100% so there was nothing for the sun to do other than run my stuff (no need to charge batteries that were fully charged). You only use what you need when it comes to the sun. When there is nothing for them to do they just sit there.

Thanks so much for the tutorial, explanation and graphics.

It's interesting that you showed the 5 reasons people do these solar installations. I would agree that the main reason to do it would be as a hobby/exercise. I've always thought it would be so cool but never had a situation where I could do it. Now, my time has passed, but I'm living vicariously through your setup.

Please keep us up to date on all your progress and results. It's fascinating.

 

[robnplunder]

I have a theory about the five types of people who have solar:
1) Greenies who think they are saving the planet from something.
2) Rich people who want to impress their friends by being green.
3) Stupid people who fall for "Sign here and I can save you a bunch of money by installing solar for you".
4) People who would pay $100K to get grid to their remote house or have a crazy cost per KWH.
5) Hobbyists, like me, who just want to have a project to work on and love looking at graphs and numbers.

I belong to 1) & 3). I thought about installing solar panels. I even contacted a few installers to get an estimate. I decided not to install it. Initial cost and potential maintenance issues scared me.

 

[Flieger]

So, looking online it appears I can get a 14kW Standby Generator for ~$5k that I could run for the 3 hr peak demand period AND for inevitable power outages. Won't payback in my lifetime either, but this may be a better/cheaper alternative. I currently have a small portable generator that is not "permanently" connected with auto switch or timer that get's us by for power outages. Helped out after Helene.

Flieger

 

[rmcelwee]

So, looking online it appears I can get a 14kW Standby Generator for ~$5k that I could run for the 3 hr peak demand period AND for inevitable power outages. Won't payback in my lifetime either, but this may be a better/cheaper alternative. I currently have a small portable generator that is not "permanently" connected with auto switch or timer that get's us by for power outages. Helped out after Helene.

Flieger

We discussed this many times and keep coming back to three facts:
1) My solar will pay $6 in "free" energy today, and every day for the rest of my life.
2) The generator will NOT pay back anything today, or tomorrow, or the next day, or the next, or the next, or the next... Six months from now we will have a 10 hour outage BUT will have to buy diesel (or propane, or gasoline) and the generator will COST us money.
3) It is not fun to play with a generator. Today I will look at my solar graphs 10-20 times.

This morning DW and I had a 30 minute discussion on buying more batteries. She convinced me to get four more (and another inverter)! She's a good woman...

 

[Fermion]

Which of those batteries that are in your picture do you prefer? The LifePower or the Ecoworthy? Quality of construction and safety feature differences?

I wonder if rack type batteries like that could be used on our larger sailboat?

 

[rmcelwee]

Which of those batteries that are in your picture do you prefer? The LifePower or the Ecoworthy? Quality of construction and safety feature differences?

I wonder if rack type batteries like that could be used on our larger sailboat?

EW is an "old" company but these batteries are a new thing for them. I have seen them take user feedback and rapidly change the batteries for the better. The EG4 batteries were "the standard" when I purchased them a year ago but they are getting a bad name over tech support. In the end, batteries are batteries and I managed to buy nine EW for the price of six EG4. I will buy more EW batteries in a week or so.

 

[rmcelwee]

Which of those batteries that are in your picture do you prefer? The LifePower or the Ecoworthy? Quality of construction and safety feature differences?

I wonder if rack type batteries like that could be used on our larger sailboat?

Yes, you could use them on the sailboat. I have a 36V Enjoybot battery in my golfcart. It is a plastic coated battery that might be something more what you are used to.

BTW, I am installing the EG4 Gridboss and EG4 Flexboss21 right now. I am amazed that they have two different type hinges, 15 different type screws, big metal boxes with flimsy plastic wifi dongles on the outside, etc, etc, etc. I keep seeing strange engineering decisions that I am not liking. I also didn't get an instruction manual on one of the boxes. No big deal, they have it for download online. I wrote support about it and five days later they still had not replied to me. I raised a big stink on their FaceBook page and that rattled their cage but I was not happy with their lack of response. I have spent $15K on EG4 products in the past year and think support could be much better.

 

[Flieger]

We discussed this many times and keep coming back to three facts:
1) My solar will pay $6 in "free" energy today, and every day for the rest of my life.
2) The generator will NOT pay back anything today, or tomorrow, or the next day, or the next, or the next, or the next... Six months from now we will have a 10 hour outage BUT will have to buy diesel (or propane, or gasoline) and the generator will COST us money.
3) It is not fun to play with a generator. Today I will look at my solar graphs 10-20 times.

This morning DW and I had a 30 minute discussion on buying more batteries. She convinced me to get four more (and another inverter)! She's a good woman...

Yep, I get that. I guess the "utility" and ease of covering grid failure wins out for me.

Flieger

 

[folivier]

This is a much smaller experience. I put a single 280 AH Eco-worthy LiFePO4 battery in my motorhome along with 400 watts of Renogy solar panels. Also have Victron solar charger, DC-DC charger, shunt and AC charger. So far on our Alaska trip I only had to use the generator two days because of clouds and rain. My system is allowing us to dry camp as long as our water lasts which we've spent some wonderful days in remote campgrounds.

 

[sdawson]

Cool hobby, and there is a bit of financial payback unlike most hobbies. For fun I just have a single 200 watt panel feeding a single Blueetti AC180 battery. Got those primarily to use when camping. But since they are here, I use them for the office when not camping.

It is small, but has proven useful to allow me to function when the power has gone down. That is, my computer, monitor, modem/router remain online when the power goes out (happens a few times a year). Went out a month or so ago, and the little single battery, even without any solar panel feed at the time (rainy day), gives me 5 to 6 hours of office time, so was able to keep working.

 

[Texas Proud]

Sounds like an interesting hobby... but also sounds like an expensive hobby... what do you think you have total invested in the system? How much do you produce in a year? Do you sell any back to the grid?

I would assume with your batteries that you do not, but who knows...

What happens when it is raining/cloudy out for 2 or more weeks? It has been raining here most days the last few weeks... that would put you on the grid for a long period...

I have mentioned this in other threads... I only pay about $1200 to $1500 a year for electricity... I have a decent sized house with a 5 ton AC that runs a LOT... I also have a lot of trees that cover my roof... I just happen to be one that solar makes no sense no matter which of the 5 I might be...

 

[MC Rider]

I've thought about solar, especially when the electric bill soars in summer, or the power goes out. But it makes zero sense financially.

We are getting a small battery "power station" and will see how that works for the occasional outage. Maybe get a solar charger for it later. Cost is low enough it does not have to make financial sense to try.

 

[rmcelwee]

Sounds like an interesting hobby... but also sounds like an expensive hobby... what do you think you have total invested in the system? How much do you produce in a year? Do you sell any back to the grid?

I would assume with your batteries that you do not, but who knows...

What happens when it is raining/cloudy out for 2 or more weeks? It has been raining here most days the last few weeks... that would put you on the grid for a long period...

I have mentioned this in other threads... I only pay about $1200 to $1500 a year for electricity... I have a decent sized house with a 5 ton AC that runs a LOT... I also have a lot of trees that cover my roof... I just happen to be one that solar makes no sense no matter which of the 5 I might be...

I have $45K in it now but I figure after future upgrades minus tax credits we will probably really be looking at $40K. I don't sell to the grid now but might at some point. I'm guessing 20-25 year payback but I will be dead by then.

If it rains forever you start using the grid again. I have a friend who is off grid and he fires up a generator.

This is a hobby for me. The money really doesn't matter (any more than my sense of getting a good deal when I buy solar stuff). I have a prepper mindset so that is part of it too. Our new house is going to be super efficient so it will make even less financial sense at that time. Still doesn't matter.

 

[rmcelwee]

I've thought about solar, especially when the electric bill soars in summer, or the power goes out. But it makes zero sense financially.

We are getting a small battery "power station" and will see how that works for the occasional outage. Maybe get a solar charger for it later. Cost is low enough it does not have to make financial sense to try.

Look at Will Prose videos on youtube. He just had one where he built a portable charging station for half of what you are thinking of spending. You'll save money and learn something.

 

[MC Rider]

Look at Will Prose videos on youtube. He just had one where he built a portable charging station for half of what you are thinking of spending. You'll save money and learn something.

The battery cost $238 with tax and there is a rebate for $150. Solar panel not included. It puts out 600 watts continuous and 1200 peak. Hopefully will run the fridge for a while to keep things cool and the pellet stove for a while if needed. Anyway, not planning to spend much at all, at this time.

 

[rmcelwee]

The battery cost $238 with tax and there is a rebate for $150. Solar panel not included. It puts out 600 watts continuous and 1200 peak. Hopefully will run the fridge for a while to keep things cool and the pellet stove for a while if needed. Anyway, not planning to spend much at all, at this time.

I wouldn't mind taking a look. Link?

BTW, here is the video I was talking about (5500W for $1600). I misunderstood what you were trying to accomplish. This would be the next step though:

 

[skyking1]

The costs are highly variable.
I DIYed everything to date and that has kept it pretty affordable. I won't post details in this thread but will have some sections in my home build thread and probably some topic specific threads about the tech in the house.

 

[MC Rider]

wouldn't mind taking a look. Link?

The rebate is via Edison, our electric company. This is the thing.

Amazon.com

 

[surfFL]

Interesting hobby... I paid Tesla Energy to have a solar system + battery back-up installed. I have shared the financial, technical, motivation and real life timeline here:

Anybody have a power wall or other battery backup?

ECOFLOW offers a small dual fuel generator to connect to their ECOFLOW power stations that can auto-start when the power station's batteries run low. ECOFLOW is a bit pricy, but a very popular tried-&-true company. I use two Pecron Power Stations (E1500LFP) with three expansion batteries...

www.early-retirement.org

And ROI here:

Anybody have a power wall or other battery backup?

I was talking to my sister.... we both have a whole house generator.... she knows of a number of people who are getting quotes to get one.. However, someone she knows was told she does not have enough space for one (kinda surprised me as they do not take up that much space)... so, I suggested...

www.early-retirement.org

Just to recap 3 key points (from those 2 different posts):
a/ Timeframe: 19 weeks (or 4 months and 3 weeks) from $100 PO to Permission To Operate (PTO) on 5/13/2025
PTO is when you can claim the Federal Tax Credit, no PO
b/ Cost: $45k for 24x panels (9.84 kW) + 3x Powerwalls (PW) 3 (40.5 kWh)
c/ ROI: this is way I measured it. I've compared it to a whole house generator + buried LPG tank (I don't have natural gas here)
Summary "For me in 5 years I will break even, every year after Year 5, the Generator solution will cost me $2k more than the Solar Panels + Battery Backup."
Assuming I'll get the 30% Federal Tax Credit, which seems I should; since the BBB passed today calls for those credits expiring 12/31/2025 (for residential solar):

Congress and Trump End Popular Solar Tax Credit—Here’s What Homeowners Need to Know

Congress and President Trump just passed legislation to cut the 30% residential solar tax credit in 2026—nearly a decade ahead of schedule. For homeowners considering solar, act now to lock in savings.

www.energysage.com

Now that I have 1.5 month of experience with the system, I'm posting some data (complementary of NetZero App) for the month of June:

Summary:

==> I sold (Net Metering) 241 kWh to the grid (FPL), my June bill was $27... (solar subscription with FPL is $25/month w/o taxes). And they are crediting me $7 (for those kWH) in the June bill, so June bill is $20 in fact...

Solar production details:

==> The system outperformed the specs (PW Watts, the red dots on the chart above - note that NetZero does a weather adjustment of the PW Watts estimate; so that's as close a real life as it could be) by +12%

House / Car charging details:

==> I got 352 kWh 'free' for the EV, since I did not charge at any SuperCharger in 06/2025; that's 1430 miles (my EV is doing now 246 Wh per mile or 4.065 miles per kWh)

Additional experience
1/ The system was always online, except for 5mins (Teslas servers outage I guess) but it was working as normal during these times
2/ The system automatically updates itself (and NetZero sends a notification of the software update)
3/ Charge on Solar is available: I'm not using it though, I prefer lowering the Amp to 35A on the Tesla App - max is 48A (and thus wait a bit longer for the car to charge), but with 35A when the AC kicks in, I'm still not drawing anything from the Grid... Just the Powerwall (and solar if available) is charging the car.
4/ I've set up an Automation on NetZero App: If Powerwall reserve is lower than 35%, stop charging the car. This allows me to 'live' through the evening / night without drawing anything from the Grid
5/ I've got 3 grid outages during those 1.5 month, Tesla system kicked in automatically; I received notifications from Tesla App and NetZero App about the outage. There is a 1-2s voltage drop, so my 2 UPSs (Computer and Cable modem) are still useful
6/ The solution is adapting itself to weather conditions:
When it's sunny and though I'm consuming more kWh (with the house AC), the solar panels generates more energy
When it's cloudy, I'm consuming less kWh (with the house AC), the solar panels generates less energy
7/ The system if performing better than I expected on cloudy days (I was shouting for 15%), I'm closer to 30-40% which is fantastic. It only produces 0 kWh when it's raining.
8/ I've made my house energy efficient by adding:
- R30 insulation above the attached garage
- R8 insulation on the attached garage door
- Radiant barrier (aluminum foil) on the roof rafters
- Attic (smart) fan (hot air exhaust) to complement the soffits (cool) air intakes
This is also why 6/ is performing well, I think.
9/ The past few days we had very rainy / cloudy weather in Central Florida (complementary of TD3)
I've doing a 'hurricane test', can I live off grid? By changing nothing to my daily habits (including charging the EV) and see if the solution is self sustainable. It seems everything is performing above my expectations (I was expecting not to be able to use the water heater, range, MW and washer / dryer and charge the car in my initial sizing math)

So conclusion
A/ So far I've been living off the grid (including charging the EV) (I'm connected, but I generating more energy than I need) and the solution performs above my expectations / specs in various weather situations; but I think this needs to be put in perspective with having an energy efficient home (the walls are R13 and the attic is R30; the windows are impact, thus thicker and limiting energy leakage)
B/ If you are thinking of a solar system + battery backup solution, and if you are interested in getting the Federal Tax Credits, from my experience (time frame) and what I understand of the BBB; you should act now!

PS: As mentioned in the thread; I need to see if the solution will be able to be 'off the grid' in the cold months December/ January in Central Florida when days are short (less kWh produced) and I'm heating the house. That's the last challenge...

 

[rmcelwee]

Cost: $45k for 24x panels (9.84 kW) + 3x Powerwalls (PW) 3 (40.5 kWh)

A quick data point on a mostly DIY system (I paid $4500 for someone to get on the roof for me). My cost as of today is $30,710 ($43,871 minus tax credit of $13,161) for 60x panels (22,050kW) + 15 batteries (76.8 kWh). So, a "pretty / turn-key" install roughly doubles the cost (halves the production/storage). Is it worth it? I don't think so but DW is onboard with most of my crazy ideas. If she wasn't so supportive I probably would have went the pretty route.

I have not read your other posts, yet, but do you know what your output is? My new equipment will go online in 2-3 days and specs say it will do 12kW continuous at night (or 16kW continuous when the sun is shining). It will run 24kW for 0.5 sec, 18kW for 1 sec, 15kW for 6 mins, and 13.2kW for 12 mins. My old equipment trips a little north of 12kW so we turn off the water heater if we are drying clothes or running the oven. Hopefully this will solve that problem. If not, I will have to add another $4200 inverter because DW is not going to take this much longer.

Those powerwalls are impressive. I'd also love to get a Tesla but I don't really want to carry Diesel fuel and chicken feed in the back seat. Until they make a "real" pickup truck I will have to just dream about it. We have a 2020 Toyota Tacoma and a 1991 Mazda Miata (for fun top down drives). We only drive once every two weeks so a new car would be a huge waste for us.

 

[surfFL]

Yes, on top of it; anything DIY is gratifying.
Not sure what your question is, but the PW 3 specs

https://energylibrary.tesla.com/docs/Public/EnergyStorage/Powerwall/3/Datasheet/en-us/Powerwall-3-Datasheet.pdf

11.5 kW AC, this is exactly what I'm getting (my 3x PW are in series, so same wattage, just more kWh)
So yes, Air Conditioning is around 2.5 kW, water heater is about 5.5 kW. I can't do much more...
But the PW 3 will start a BIG AC, what is important in the LRA (Locked Rotor Amp), what the battery can provide when your AC starts. PW 3 LRA is 185 Amp (my AC LRA is way below that for a 3 Tons).
Best solar production: the best day so far was 6/13 with 61.6kWh (or +28% more than PW Watts, weather corrected - well it was all sunny that day LOL). I've got a lot of other days around 57 kWh.
Best Solar Peak was about 9kW in May, but is was exceptional. Usually it's around 8kW.

For me what's important is the all integrated solution EV + Home + Battery + Solar + Grid in one App (Tesla) and fully configurable from the App; whether I'm home or not.
You can learn more about the energy part of the Tesla App here:

https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/powerwall/mobile-app/tesla-app-for-energy

NetZero is nice for reporting (as I posted above), troubleshooting (strings voltage, etc...) and the automations (as I posted above).

Yes also I did (obviously) 'use' the 1430 miles in June. When I go surfing in New Smyrna Inlet, that's about 240 miles round trip from the Treasure Coast (Florida). I think I went 3-4 times; and there are other spots closer to home (in Satellite Beach) that are 120 miles round trip from home.

Best of luck with your PTO day.

 

[rmcelwee]

Yes, on top of it; anything DIY is gratifying.
Not sure what your question is, but the PW 3 specs

https://energylibrary.tesla.com/docs/Public/EnergyStorage/Powerwall/3/Datasheet/en-us/Powerwall-3-Datasheet.pdf

11.5 kW AC, this is exactly what I'm getting

Yes, 11.5 was what I was after. Mine is 12 (16 when the sun is shining). We are running the house and both shops with A/C. I don't know if it will handle three heating systems when it gets cold so I think yet another upgrade is in my future.

Oh, I'm not sure what my best day is but the last three days have been great (because of all the dead batteries I just put on the system). 70, 78, and 71 kWh. We had 71 by 1PM today then the batteries were 100% and it stopped.

 

[skyking1]

My panels are on the roof, and I have the big pieces but no grid power, no net metering agreement yet, and no certificate of occupancy. We may not make the tax break.
Inverter plus 16 Kwh battery = 5K
36x 410W panels (14.76Kw) = $6226
Rails and RSD = 3K
Roof top switches and SPDs =$800
I'm into it about 15K and it would sting to lose 4500 in tax credits, but not the end of the world.
I need to bring the power down in EMT and do some cleanup, then hang the gear and get it plumbed in to the electrical panels.
The wall I am using for that is not quite built yet