Thought about a HELOC etc. for a Dancing DM

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Looking for some input for a financial dilemma for my Mom (DM). She is currently 86, in very good health, and lives alone at home. She has always loved ballroom dancing and about 3 or 4 years ago, began dancing at Fred Astaire. She really loves it...except...it's very expensive. The instructors there can be manipulative, at times persuading her to signup for lessons, dances, and events which are very pricey.

DM has about $120K in an IRA with Chase Private Client. I recently got online access to this, and despite being in more funds than I would recommend, it seems OK. 46/54 AA and mostly low-cost funds although I haven't really dug into it. She also has $19K in a taxable brokerage account, and has racked up about that much in credit card debt. She agreed to after some resistance to put together a monthly budget, but feels like she nets about $1,500/month after her SS, pension, and RMDs. This is before the cost of the dancing.

DM doesn't want to give up the dancing and has been considering a HELOC to fund a year or two of dancing. While it has been hard to pin her down about how much the dancing costs - there are lessons, weekly "showcases", dresses, local events, regional events, national events, etc. - she feels she will only physically be able to dance for another "year or so" at which point she will stop. I'm ballparking all of this at about $25-30K/year.

Last night I got DM to agree to pay off the credit cards with the taxable brokerage account. She also has about $330K of equity in her home, which has a remaining mortgage. Mom does not have LTC insurance; as such DW and I told her a number of years ago that her home would be her long-term care plan. Like I mentioned above, she is in good health and has no comorbidities.

Looking for your thoughts about a HELOC in this situation, or any other feedback. I've never had a HELOC, but know they can be risky (upfront costs, variable interest, subject to call, etc.). Foremost I am extremely nervous that any claim on DM's home equity will diminish her ability to afford LTC, and DW and I cannot take care of her. I have been steering her away from the HELOC but I feel like the bad guy that's keeping her away from her dancing passion. It seems like DM's alienated her advisor at Chase after he told her she couldn't afford the dancing, but she has agreed for the three of us to meet, once she has done a budget. I also told DM that she needs to have some $ in reserve for unforeseen expenses like new roof car repairs etc.

Thanks.
 
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Just IMO, but seems like enabling a problem (the way you describe the Fred Astaire Dance program, anyway).

Flieger
 
I don't think establishing the HELOC is a bad thing, but am not thrilled about using it to fund her lifestyle without some guard rails. At a minimum I'd want to get a clear picture of her budget. While the dancing seems expensive, it's her money and she enjoys it, so I'd be looking to encourage it, within reason.

Using your numbers its a 50 to 60 thousand dollar expense exposure. She has that in equity.

The last time I looked there were no upfront fees for a HELOC and you only pay interest when you draw down on it, and the ones I looked at had a $75 per year maintenance fee.
 
Have you shopped HEILOC costs? They can be expensive to set up and have higher interest rated. Both of these are negotiable, so be sure to be a tough guy when shopping. Because of costs, I am not sure the HELOC is a good idea. Maybe just draw on the IRA in tax efficient increments.
 
We had our HELOC through WFB. No set up costs and no annual fees. We had it with just a small draw and let it lapse after 10 years.
 
It's possible that the dancing is actually helping her stay healthy physically, mentally, and socially so it certainly has worth from that standpoint. However, I'd be wary of supporting it carte blanche since you don't seem to know the full extent of the expenses. Lessons are one thing but you may need to put limits on expensive outfits for all the events. She may just have to wear each several times! It's hard to imagine she'd continue to be as active in her late 80s and later as she is now.
 
While I agree that it is her money and she is 86 it looks like the prices for this are eye watering. Can you do a simulation of if you pay x per year ( using HELOC ) after two years your house will be worth y nd you can only spend z and if you did need care it would cost z many times over. I foundthis recent thread. Look at the cost for a competition!
 
What do you mean by "but feels like she nets about $1,500/month after her SS, pension, and RMDs. This is before the cost of the dancing."? Is $1,500 / month spare cash after all her expenses? It does not make sense to me with $1,500 after her SS, pension and RMD.

If it is what I think you mean, i.e. $1,500 / month in spare cash, it will be $18K a year. The shortfall for dance lessons is not as huge.
 
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I'm usually in the camp of "let her dance! and that it really isn't any of your business"-except it will become your business if she spends her funds that she has earmarked for LTC. That really isn't fair to you and your wife.
Could you ask her about keeping one of her favorite dance classes and maybe taking other dance type classes at a gym? She might be able to get a gym membership through her medicare supplement or advantage plan.
Other than that I wish you good luck. My mother is 96 and stubborn is her middle name.
 
Lost my mom at age 93. She too was a "pistol" right up until the day she died and spent money like a house afire!

Let her have fun and enjoy herself even if it means that you have to eventually backfill financially.

You won’t regret it some day.

Meanwhile I'd insert myself a bit to insure that she's not an easy mark etc. Mom always let me play the "bad guy" in these cases "Sorry, you need to check with my son" saved her on more than one occasion.
 
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I'm usually in the camp of "let her dance! and that it really isn't any of your business"-except it will become your business if she spends her funds that she has earmarked for LTC. That really isn't fair to you and your wife.
Thanks for summing up the crux of the issue. DW and I really want her to be able to dance, but not at the expense of decent LTC. She really won't enjoy a Medicaid facility.
 
Be SO glad you're helping your mom fund her enjoyable hobby instead of funding LTC! I had to finagle and move funds, sell mom's house and call insurance companies, etc. trying to find enough money to cover my mom's last days on Earth - confined to a nursing home.

Sorry, I'm not belittling your "problem" but hope I can suggest some perspective. I'd beg your mom to let you "in" to her finances with the PROMISE that you'll do all you can to help her finance her greatest pleasure. It's just that you need to know everything about the costs and cash burn, etc. If you can get her to trust you completely, I think she'll cooperate and maybe even allow you to help find alternative dance studios, limit expenses, enhance revenue, etc.

All the best.
 
Thanks for summing up the crux of the issue. DW and I really want her to be able to dance, but not at the expense of decent LTC. She really won't enjoy a Medicaid facility.
OTOH, at age 86 DM may never need LTC. Her need for "Long Term" gets shorter every day. Those lines intersect at some point.

We paid LTC insurance for mom for 38 years....mom died in her sleep at home at 93.

It's a crap shoot for sure. But will "gee, I should have let her keep dancing" haunt you as you deposit your inheritance check?
 
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My husband and I are dancers-- we do all kinds of dancing, including ballroom and we also teach dancing. Fred Astaire dance studios and the like an are rip offs- almost like a pyramid scheme. They prey on lonely older people and get try to get their money. There are other options for dancing. One of the places we have danced is our local senior center. Great dancer instructors and FREE or nominal cost.
 
What about gifting your mother the amount each year to enable her to dance?
 
What about gifting your mother the amount each year to enable her to dance?
Given what I read in the Reddit that Sarah S linked to in post #10, this would amount to letting oneself be scammed by a ripoff, instead of letting Mom be scammed by the ripoff. It would infuriate me to do either.

Best is to talk Mom into trying other ballroom-dance venues. Even other for-profit outfits, if there are no clubs or local-government-sponsored recreational options available in her area.

I like marko's idea to make oneself the bad guy if/when Mom is ready to say no to the super-expensive competition fees.
 
... Fred Astaire dance studios and the like an are rip offs- almost like a pyramid scheme. They prey on lonely older people and get try to get their money. ...
This. I was a SCORE mentor for a guy who taught for one of these schools (not Fred Astaire IIRC) and the stories he told were amazing. How they try to hook lonely people into long term programs. He was trying to get out of the racket, but it did pay good sales commissions.
 
Our local Community college has dance classes, both regular fee for credit and ones at less cost for community folks.
Our local city Parks and Recreation also offers several dance classes.

Hopefully, there are other options out there for your Mom. Those Fred Astaire schools are too expensive for your Moms budget, in my opinion.
 
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