Ultra Processed Foods

I ate some watermelon today. I removed the seeds, did not eat them and did not eat the rind. I guess I processed the watermelon and removed the fiber.
 
Qs Laptop said:
I ate some watermelon today. I removed the seeds, did not eat them and did not eat the rind. I guess I processed the watermelon and removed the fiber.
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Oh... it's so bad for you. Actually, depending on how much you consume, there's alot of sugar in watermelon. Everything in moderation.
 
athena53 said:
My trip to Central America was enlightening. They make tortillas with ground corn and water. Period. Nothing else is needed because they don't use "corn meal" with stuff stripped out of it. <snip>
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In Mexico, and I believe in Central America as well, whole corn undergoes "nixtamalization" before it is ground.

en.wikipedia.org

Nixtamalization - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

"Nixtamalization (/ˌnɪkstəməlɪˈzeɪʃən/) is a process for the preparation of maize, or other grain, in which the grain is soaked and cooked in an alkaline solution, usually limewater (but sometimes aqueous alkali metal carbonates),[1] washed, and then hulled. The term can also refer to the removal via an alkali process of the pericarp from other grains such as sorghum.

Nixtamalized corn has several benefits over unprocessed grain: It is more easily ground, its nutritional value is increased, flavor and aroma are improved, and mycotoxins are reduced by up to 97%–100% (for aflatoxins).[2]"
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I think that foods like tortilla chips in the USA are typically made from nixtamalized corn, whereas Fritos and corn flakes are not. You can buy masa harina in many grocery stores (for making your own tortillas, tamales, pupusas, ec.), which is ground nixtamalized corn.
 
anethum said:
In Mexico, and I believe in Central America as well, whole corn undergoes "nixtamalization" before it is ground.
.....
I think that foods like tortilla chips in the USA are typically made from nixtamalized corn, whereas Fritos and corn flakes are not. You can buy masa harina in many grocery stores (for making your own tortillas, tamales, pupusas, ec.), which is ground nixtamalized corn.
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Yes, per wiki and other sources, Fritos are made from "whole cornmeal, unlike the similar tortilla chips, which are made from cornmeal and use the nixtamalization process (known as masa)."

Every source I found says tortillas in Central America are made with nixtamalized corn.

So we have some people here touting the tortillas in CA as being less processed, yet that nixtamalization process includes all sorts of thing most would call 'unnatural'. Wiki:

the grain is soaked and cooked in an alkaline solution, usually limewater (but sometimes aqueous alkali metal carbonates),[1] washed, and then hulled.
Click to expand...

So as it turns out, the Fritos that some disparaged, appear to be whole grain, while the praised CA tortillas are stripped of their hulls and processed with alkaline solutions (chemicals!!!!).

TWO TAKE-AWAYS:

1) So is 'processing 'bad'? Look at all the benefits to nixtamalization. Wiki:

Secondary benefits can arise from the grain's absorption of minerals from the alkali used or from the vessels used in preparation. These effects can increase calcium (by 750%, with 85% available for absorption), iron, copper, and zinc.[3]

Nixtamalization significantly deactivates (by 90–94%) mycotoxins produced by Fusarium verticillioides and Fusarium proliferatum, molds that commonly infect maize, the toxins of which are putative carcinogens.[3]
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Those sound like good things to me.

So I stick with my earlier stand. The terms "processed" and "ultra-processed" are near meaningless. I think they are just buzz-words for people who won't take the time or interest in digging into what really matters. It's just not as simple as 'processed', 'natural', 'chemical', 'unpronounceable', 'organic'.

2) Quantity/Context - Is it important how much fiber I get from a corn snack? I don't eat them often, and I eat fruit and vegetables prepared in our kitchen from their raw state every day. Do I care that the TBS or two of ketchup that I put on my wife's baked potato wedges maybe every other week contains HFCS? I doubt there is any harm in HFCS compared to other sugars (and maybe less - it's sweeter - so you use less of it?), and even if there was, I doubt that the small amounts I consume are harmful in any way.

If people are consuming a lot of sugars, and getting little fiber in their diet, this may well be a problem (does anyone really know?). Obesity is certainly a problem, but I'm not going to blame that on the foods, the person needs to take responsibility for what and how much they eat. And if it easier to become obese by getting 'hooked' on a diet of these foods, well, don't do that! I could drink enough to be an alcoholic, but I don't, I manage my drinking. I don't blame the alcohol, and I think people should stop blaming the foods, and look at the big picture.
 
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ERD50 said:
Yes, per wiki and other sources, Fritos are made from "whole cornmeal, unlike the similar tortilla chips, which are made from cornmeal and use the nixtamalization process (known as masa)."

Every source I found says tortillas in Central America are made with nixtamalized corn.

So we have some people here touting the tortillas in CA as being less processed, yet that nixtamalization process includes all sorts of thing most would call 'unnatural'. Wiki:



So as it turns out, the Fritos that some disparaged, appear to be whole grain, while the praised CA tortillas are stripped of their hulls and processed with alkaline solutions (chemicals!!!!).

<snip>
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Masa harina is ground whole grain corn. I have a bag of masa harina in my home right now and it specifically states it is made from whole grain corn treated with lime (the mineral, not the fruit). Nixtamalization actually improves the nutritional benefits of corn, including making the natural niacin in corn more available and increasing calcium absorption in the body. Most people (myself included) believe it also improves the flavor.
 
anethum said:
Masa harina is ground whole grain corn. I have a bag of masa harina in my home right now and it specifically states it is made from whole grain corn treated with lime (the mineral, not the fruit). Nixtamalization actually improves the nutritional benefits of corn, including making the natural niacin in corn more available and increasing calcium absorption in the body. Most people (myself included) believe it also improves the flavor.
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But from the sources I've found (they agree with wiki), masa harina is made from Nixtamalized corn, and that includes hulling.

Maybe 'whole grain corn' refers to the wheat and the germ, and the hull is not included?

Regardless, I just don't think there is any significant correlation here in terms of 'processed/unprocessed/ultra-processed' and health.

And that was my point - there are claimed health benefits to Nixtamalization, and I think it would be hard to argue that isn't *more* processed than not doing it.


en.wikipedia.org

Masa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

en.wikipedia.org

Nixtamalization - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
We have gotten things down to grains brought in our home, beans for veggie protein, chicken and turkey only that is not processed, and then it is veggies and fruits that we bought and not from any pre-packaged food packet or can or prep'd meal. No Costco or Sams foods enter our home.

It is simple> Make the Time to Make Food. Or drink Water.

If retired, why buy any foods that is not raw that we can make from home. We work from home and make ALL of our foods from the beans, grains and do not buy anything that is prepared ahead of time. Yes, when we go to friends home, we have to deal with it, but now a days, we also take our own main item if we know what they are making, as if we are doing Pot-luc.

Ken

PS: What goes in our body, is NOT easy to remove, so like a portfolio, why eat back stocks, and then have to deal with removing it from the portfolio!
 
I was in a serious relationship with corn chips as a young person, however we "broke up" a number of years ago. At this point in time, I'd sooner invite a vampire over the threshold, as opposed to bringing in a bag of corn chips. Obviously, YMMV.
 
a contrarian take:

"Given the doom and dread about food processing, you’d think there’s convincing evidence that has identified how food processing harms health in humans. But there isn’t. Panels of scientists from the US and UK (both with and without histories of food industry funding) agree on this and agree that it currently isn’t clear if food processing itself harms health."

theconversation.com

Ultra-processed foods: here’s what the evidence actually says about them

Hype around ultra-processed food may be causing unnecessary anxiety among people who already struggle with food or worry about their health.
theconversation.com theconversation.com
 
dixonge said:
a contrarian take:

"Given the doom and dread about food processing, you’d think there’s convincing evidence that has identified how food processing harms health in humans. But there isn’t. Panels of scientists from the US and UK (both with and without histories of food industry funding) agree on this and agree that it currently isn’t clear if food processing itself harms health."

theconversation.com

Ultra-processed foods: here’s what the evidence actually says about them

Hype around ultra-processed food may be causing unnecessary anxiety among people who already struggle with food or worry about their health.
theconversation.com theconversation.com
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Anyone who's gone the down the rabbit hole of how 'food science' by large is done, will see the conflicts of interest from food companies are enormous and the 'science' (epidemiological) is so low quality it wouldn't pass muster in any other arena.

My take is to severely limit my intake of anything we couldn't get before we started farming 10k -15k years ago.
 
We take the appoach that all junk food is ultra processed so very seldom bother with it. No different than diet drinks and regular soft drinks to us.

If we reach for whatever in the grocery store and see that it has a long list of chemical ingredients we just put it back.
 
I had a nice weekend get together with a niece and nephew, Both are food scientists (like their father) and work in the food industry. One developes flavors, the other makes ingredients and recipes. In both cases the product is an input to companies that make food,

They both had a great laugh when I asked the difference between processed and ultra processed. No one affiliated with food production uses the term “ultra” and even “processed” has little meaning. In their view just about every food item that is not a raw ingredient is processed in some way, that’s not necessarily bad, and lots of processing is not apparent in the ingredients list.

When I asked for some examples of processed food items they both named flavored potato chips and frozen pizza. A long (and very educational) conversation ensued. Processing begins when grains such as wheat and corn are developed for specific properties or attributes required by the food companies. These hybrid grains already meet the definition of processed before they’re harvested and it’s not clear they are as easily digested (or not) as the strains that have been produced for centuries or millenia. There is also concern this hybridization is one cause of a global increase in food allergies.

Corn chips, for example, list 3 ingredients, corn, oil and salt, and give the impression they are simple and wholesome. The corn is cleaned, then crushed and broken down into a slurry, then extruded or molded, then fried. It is the perfect example of processed food not identified by reading the label. The food company assumes the nutricional value of the final product is the same as the sum of the ingredients even though it’s not clear all of the nutricional properties of the corn are retained and the final product is easily digested.
 
So I read the thread, quite unusual for me for subjects where I have limited interest. Things learned:

1) No one knows what ultra-processing is.
2) Lots of people think it is dangerous.

If it is so dangerous and consumption is so widespread, why do we not see dead people on every street corner? (Pass me the potato chips, please.)

Reminds me of the hazards associated with Dihydrogen Monoxide. (Dihydrogen Monoxide Research Division - dihydrogen monoxide info)
 
Two ingredients make me terribly sick, wheat gluten and sugar alcohol. When I read food labels and don't see these 2 ingredients, they are safe for me. :)
 
OldShooter said:
So I read the thread, quite unusual for me for subjects where I have limited interest. Things learned:

1) No one knows what ultra-processing is.
2) Lots of people think it is dangerous.

If it is so dangerous and consumption is so widespread, why do we not see dead people on every street corner? (Pass me the potato chips, please.)

Reminds me of the hazards associated with Dihydrogen Monoxide. (Dihydrogen Monoxide Research Division - dihydrogen monoxide info)
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We certainly do see greatly increased levels of obesity and Type 2 diabetes in the US. Neither condition is benign.
 
OldShooter said:
If it is so dangerous and consumption is so widespread, why do we not see dead people on every street corner? (Pass me the potato chips, please.)
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Tae a look at a picture of a crowded beach in the 1960s and now. According to the CDC, about 11% of them have Type 2 diabetes. The obesity rate for US adults is 42%. It's partly because we're more sedentary but also because processed foods are "engineered" to make you want more. How many times do you see the word "crave-able" pop up in food ads? Look up "bliss point"-the perfect combination of sugar, salt, and fat that makes us crave more of a certain food. No one binges on broccoli or baked potatoes or apples. They binge on Doritos and Ben and Jerry's.
 
MichaelB said:
I had a nice weekend get together with a niece and nephew, Both are food scientists (like their father) and work in the food industry. One developes flavors, the other makes ingredients and recipes. In both cases the product is an input to companies that make food,

They both had a great laugh when I asked the difference between processed and ultra processed. No one affiliated with food production uses the term “ultra” and even “processed” has little meaning. In their view just about every food item that is not a raw ingredient is processed in some way, that’s not necessarily bad, and lots of processing is not apparent in the ingredients list.

When I asked for some examples of processed food items they both named flavored potato chips and frozen pizza. A long (and very educational) conversation ensued. Processing begins when grains such as wheat and corn are developed for specific properties or attributes required by the food companies. These hybrid grains already meet the definition of processed before they’re harvested and it’s not clear they are as easily digested (or not) as the strains that have been produced for centuries or millenia. There is also concern this hybridization is one cause of a global increase in food allergies.

Corn chips, for example, list 3 ingredients, corn, oil and salt, and give the impression they are simple and wholesome. The corn is cleaned, then crushed and broken down into a slurry, then extruded or molded, then fried. It is the perfect example of processed food not identified by reading the label. The food company assumes the nutricional value of the final product is the same as the sum of the ingredients even though it’s not clear all of the nutricional properties of the corn are retained and the final product is easily digested.
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"Betcha, you can't eat just one"

IMO, this is an example of what Dr. Lusting means when he says the problem is not just the food, but what they do to the food.

We can debate this until the cows come home. In the end we all have to make our individual decisions on what is best for us. I know what seems to work well for me in keeping my weight down, and the various medical markers in the healthy range.
 
Golden Mean said:
My take is to severely limit my intake of anything we couldn't get before we started farming 10k -15k years ago.
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dixonge said:
That seems like a fairly impossible task. So you kill and slaughter your own meat and eat wild berries and tubers
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I eat beef, pork, eggs and fish. Limited chicken, butter, cream, cheese. No idea why you added the 'kill and slaughter' requirement.

Don't eat berries (though my GF eats blueberries sparingly) and tubers. I suspect those foods were probably only eaten when our ancestors couldn't get meat.
 
MichaelB said:
Corn chips, for example, list 3 ingredients, corn, oil and salt, and give the impression they are simple and wholesome. The corn is cleaned, then crushed and broken down into a slurry, then extruded or molded, then fried. It is the perfect example of processed food not identified by reading the label. The food company assumes the nutricional value of the final product is the same as the sum of the ingredients even though it’s not clear all of the nutricional properties of the corn are retained and the final product is easily digested.
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To me, there's a difference between processing and adding numerous unnecessary ingredients.

Does crushing corn and changing the shape remove nutrients? If so, how much and is it even worth worrying about? I have nothing against corn, oil, and salt compared to the dozens of ingredients listed on such things as crackers, bread, pastries, etc.
 
I'm assuming there are good and bad aspects of "processing" or "ultra processing." Few things are all good or bad. (Heh, heh, look at your Brother in Law.) :cool:

One thing not yet mentioned is that we have all but eliminated starvation in the world. Much of that is due to he processing of "natural" foods. (It starts with agriculture and the amazing things we've done with fertilizer, hybrids, GMOs, and disease resistance.) Processed food can be stored, shipped and distributed much more effectively than "raw" or "natural" foods. Spoilage can be a thing of the past when following appropriate protocols.

To the extent that starvation still occurs, it's most typically due to conflict rather than lack of food.

So are processed foods good or bad? I guess you have to decide for yourself (and your family.) Moderation in all things - including moderation.
 
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