Upgrading my 2 way stereo system. Amplifier next?

[DrRoy]

Last week I decided to upgrade my 47 year old speakers. After some listening at an audio store, I have a pair of KEF R3 Metas on order, arriving next Monday. Now I am wondering if my 1990's vintage Pioneer SX-251R receiver is going to be up to the task. After the speakers arrive, I will listen to them at home, and then see if the audio store can demonstrate that a new amp would be worth the cost. Based on reviews, I am considering the NAD C389 integrated amp. Does anyone have input for me?

 

[Qs Laptop]

I will say this--when you upgrade you don't mess around! Nice speakers. Also, that amp has super clean output.

What are you going to use to play the music you will be feeding to your speakers? What is your source material and hardware? I ask because that amplifier is a killer amp and if your source material is not super clean, you could be overspending on the amp.

Will you be using the system as a home theater system?

Just looking at the speakers specifications, while phenomenal speakers they are not going to reproduce deep bass notes. They get down to 58 Hz and then start to roll off. This is typical of bookshelf speakers and is why most people get a subwoofer to augment bookshelfs, especially if using it for home theater experiences.

 

[DrRoy]

I will say this--when you upgrade you don't mess around! Nice speakers. Also, that amp has super clean output.

What are you going to use to play the music you will be feeding to your speakers? What is your source material and hardware? I ask because that amplifier is a killer amp and if your source material is not super clean, you could be overspending on the amp.

Will you be using the system as a home theater system?

Just looking at the speakers specifications, while phenomenal speakers they are not going to reproduce deep bass notes. They get down to 58 Hz and then start to roll off. This is typical of bookshelf speakers and is why most people get a subwoofer to augment bookshelfs, especially if using it for home theater experiences.

Good questions. I play a mix of pop and rock music mostly from CD's. Sony CDP-CE500 changer. Enya to ACDC. I have a few hours of digital singles on a thumb drive. Mixed file type. I have a separate home theater system. I know about the bass. I will add a subwoofer later if needed.

 

[homestead]

What were your old speakers? Your current amp is 50 Watts/channel so it should be fine unless it has other problems.
My MK S-1B speakers are 42 years old and still sound fine but I did replace the surround on the subwoofer a few years back.
Also the internal amplifier on the subwoofer died and I replaced that too.

 

[Qs Laptop]

Good questions. I play a mix of pop and rock music mostly from CD's. Sony CDP-CE500 changer. Enya to ACDC. I have a few hours of digital singles on a thumb drive. Mixed file type. I have a separate home theater system. I know about the bass. I will add a subwoofer later if needed.

Using that kind of input material I think that NAD amp you have your eye on would be overkill. Sound files on a thumb drive are likely FLAC or mp3, and those formats are not as good as CD sound. I'd be tempted to see how the vintage Pioneer receiver sounds with the new speakers. Even if you like how it sounds, you are missing out on modern functionalities. I'm assuming it can't stream music services like Spotify, Tidal, etc. It likely it doesn't have room correction software built in. No HDMI, etc.

If I were in your shoes, I would consider getting a mid-level Yamaha or Denon AVR with pre-amp outputs. You would have the best of both worlds--modern functionality with the ability to add an external amp at a later date.

 

[DrRoy]

What were your old speakers? Your current amp is 50 Watts/channel so it should be fine unless it has other problems.
My MK S-1B speakers are 42 years old and still sound fine but I did replace the surround on the subwoofer a few years back.
Also the internal amplifier on the subwoofer died and I replaced that too.

The old speakers are Tamon TS-4000. 3 way acoustic suspension. I can hear elements in the KEF's that I do not in the Tamon's.

 

[OldShooter]

I would not "fix" the amp problem until you know whether you have a problem or not. Wait and see.

Re the overall upgrade, 58hz is a fairly high cutoff for bass. I suggest a powered subwoofer at least 8" and preferably larger. This is not to pound your ears like the kids' boom box cars favor, but there is a lot of material in any music genre that you will miss without something to fill in the bass. I favor the older Klipsch SWs, before the marketers came along with the metallic-looking cones. Velodyne is another good name.

Finally, as we age we lose hearing in the high frequency range. You might benefit from a hearing test to see where your cutoff is and whether you are buying sounds you can't hear from the KEFs. FWIW my hearing at 76YO cuts off at about 8Khz. I can hear nothing from the mighty fine tweeters in my Klipsch Heresys.

 

[Al18]

Is your audio setup near your large screen TV? If so, you should probably be looking for a 5.1 or 7.1 amplifier that offers multiple HDMI inputs in addition to audio inputs. I’m currently using a Pioneer 5.1 AV receiver bought a few years ago that claims 140W x 5 output - it cost about $300.

 

[DrRoy]

Using that kind of input material I think that NAD amp you have your eye on would be overkill. Sound files on a thumb drive are likely FLAC or mp3, and those formats are not as good as CD sound. I'd be tempted to see how the vintage Pioneer receiver sounds with the new speakers. Even if you like how it sounds, you are missing out on modern functionalities. I'm assuming it can't stream music services like Spotify, Tidal, etc. It likely it doesn't have room correction software built in. No HDMI, etc.

If I were in your shoes, I would consider getting a mid-level Yamaha or Denon AVR with pre-amp outputs. You would have the best of both worlds--modern functionality with the ability to add an external amp at a later date.

I will check the old amp with the new speakers first. I also plan to replace my 18 ga speaker wire with 14 ga. I do not currently listen to any streaming. 98% of what I play is on CD, over 400 of them. I could add a streaming module to the NAD later if I want to. I'm glad to hear that you think CD's are fine. My BIL (who knows everything) said that CD's were not good enough for the NAD. I don't mind a little overkill. I can afford it.

 

[DrRoy]

I would not "fix" the amp problem until you know whether you have a problem or not. Wait and see.

Re the overall upgrade, 58hz is a fairly high cutoff for bass. I suggest a powered subwoofer at least 8" and preferably larger. This is not to pound your ears like the kids' boom box cars favor, but there is a lot of material in any music genre that you will miss without something to fill in the bass. I favor the older Klipsch SWs, before the marketers came along with the metallic-looking cones. Velodyne is another good name.

Finally, as we age we lose hearing in the high frequency range. You might benefit from a hearing test to see where your cutoff is and whether you are buying sounds you can't hear from the KEFs. FWIW my hearing at 76YO cuts off at about 8Khz. I can hear nothing from the mighty fine tweeters in my Klipsch Heresys.

I will listen to the old amp first. The KEF bass sounded pretty good at the store, but if I want more I would probably add a KEF 10 in. subwoofer. I have had a hearing test. I was still good at 8Khz but they did not test higher. I have tinnitus at 4 Khz.

 

[DrRoy]

Is your audio setup near your large screen TV? If so, you should probably be looking for a 5.1 or 7.1 amplifier that offers multiple HDMI inputs in addition to audio inputs. I’m currently using a Pioneer 5.1 AV receiver bought a few years ago that claims 140W x 5 output - it cost about $300.

No. This is in another room. We have a 5.1 for the TV.

 

[target2019]

I kept the old speakers and purchased a 6-cd changer and this receiver: Onkyo TX-NR7100

That replaced old equipment that was over the hill and kaput.

 

[OldShooter]

... The KEF bass sounded pretty good at the store, but if I want more I would probably add a KEF 10 in. subwoofer. ...

WADR, if the bass you heard was "pretty good" then probably the KEF reproduction in that frequency range is OK. The issue is that most music will have low frequencies below the point where those little drivers can reproduce it. So that material will not sound "pretty good." You will not be able to hear it at all or at least not at the level the composer intended.

Also, if the stereo store used a hidden equalizer to zip up the bass in the demo room that would not be the first time. The kids, in particular, generally want more bass than the composer intended and equate lots of bass with a system being high quality.

As you are playing with your new toys, consider downloading some of the many audio test signals available on the web. You can play a 14khz signal and see whether you can hear it. Ditto a 40hz signal. Odds are that the 14khz signal will be properly reproduced by the speakers but be beyond what you can hear. Odds are that you won't hear the 40hz signal because the speakers can't reproduce it even though your ears could hear it if it was there.

 

[MichaelB]

I will listen to the old amp first.

This is what I would do. Set up the new speakers, maybe add new cables, and then listen to them for a few weeks. Once you’re better acquainted you can try a new amp and see if you can hear a difference.

Very nice speakers. I love KEF and have Reference 1’s and 3’s from back in the day. They still look and sound like they did on day 1 and they’re now 25 years old.

I wish you many years of listening pleasure.

 

[OldShooter]

... maybe add new cables ...

Unless the runs are very, very long, the cable is smaller than 14 AWG, or the insulation is crumbling from age there is no reason to change the cables. Even 14AWG is overkill.

 

[ERD50]

When I recently got new speakers, I added a pair of these subwoofers:

EL HT/1003 MKII, 10” Subwoofer

Amazon.com

I like having two, each is driven only half as hard, and it spreads out the sound so that room resonances average out better. Helps avoid having a big 'wooomp' in a few notes in the bass.

My main speakers (Maggies 1.7s) are more full range than your bookshelf speakers, so I ended up adding a high pass filter to the main speakers, to force them to have a bit less deep bass. Otherwise, I just had too much mid bass ~ 80 ~ 100 Hz. If I used the crossover on the subs, by the time I got them balanced in the mid bass, they were so far down that they hardly added anything. With the high pass on the mains, I could bring the volume up on the subs, and got it nice and even.

With the higher crossover of your speakers, that should not be a problem.

 

[DrRoy]

Unless the runs are very, very long, the cable is smaller than 14 AWG, or the insulation is crumbling from age there is no reason to change the cables. Even 14AWG is overkill.

The old wire is just lamp cord, and I am happy to overkill here.

I just discovered that there is a new NAD C 379 at 80 W for $500 less. Going to look into that.

 

[Slater]

I don't come here often but do love the forum...
Cool stuff like quality audio isn't talked about much here, understandably as there's other forums for that....
You bought some really nice quality speakers, I would imagine you will be questioning what you're missing by using your current receiver.....
Technology has improved 100x....
Get an new unit to go along with the quality components you just pulled the trigger on...
Enjoy!!!

 

[OldShooter]

... Technology has improved 100x....

Amplification of low frequency AC signals has been pretty well understood for a long time. What, specifically, has improved 100%?

 

[Keim]

What do you desire out of your amp?

As others have said: technology has improved greatly since your amp was made. Lots of bells and whistles are available now. Sound quality of quality amps hasn't improved much. That Pioneer may serve you fine if it's sound quality you are after.

 

[Slater]

Amplification of low frequency AC signals has been pretty well understood for a long time. What, specifically, has improved 100%?

better quality of the actual amp / classification?, cleaner less distortion rate possibly?
better components within, & as stated already more up to date features....
Yeah, he may not here the differnce but at that price point of speakers, ice be going all in...
But, that's me...
At that price point, its all about sound quality.....
Why would you put a cylinder in a corvette?

 

[OldShooter]

What do you desire out of your amp?
... That Pioneer may serve you fine if it's sound quality you are after.

My point exactly. The amount of audiophile snake oil sold continues to amaze me. Specifically I am astonished that some enterprising state attorney general has not gone after Monster Cable. Most of their advertising is outright lies.

 

[OldShooter]

A little TLDR story:

A few years out of grad school and working my way through school as a radio & recording school technician with a first class license, I was asked to interview to be the president of a small audiophile snake oil company. Out of curiosity I agreed. As part of the interview process, they ushered me into their listening room to hear their magic box and its competition. It was quite a nice room, comfortable and fairly anechoic. They played some classical music first through one box and then the other.

"What did you think?" "Well, the channels are reversed left-to-right between the two boxes." Consternation ensued. The bottom line was that they had been drinking their own bathwater for so long that they couldn't even recognize the most obvious defect in the demo. Needless to say we parted company, each glad to be rid of the other.

This was in the 1970s or 1980s. Snake oil has long been a tradition in the audiophile market.

 

[Qs Laptop]

"What did you think?" "Well, the channels are reversed left-to-right between the two boxes." Consternation ensued. The bottom line was that they had been drinking their own bathwater for so long that they couldn't even recognize the most obvious defect in the demo. Needless to say we parted company, each glad to be rid of the other.

This was in the 1970s or 1980s. Snake oil has long been a tradition in the audiophile market.

Back in the early 80's one of my roommates worked at a high end audiophile shop. His stereo setup had a vertical turntable, a pre-amp, a Carver magnetic amp (whatever that was), a couple of small bookshelf speakers on stands and a modest subwoofer. The system sounded OK, but it lacked midrange oomph and presence (it couldn't fill the room.) He carefully measured the speaker wires so they were the same length as he wanted the electrical signals to reach the speakers at the exact same time so as not to introduce any "lag" between one speaker or the other.

My other roommate also worked at a stereo store. We were both studying to be electrical engineers and we got a great laugh out of this need for the speaker wire to be the same length.

This roommate had a couple of Ohm-I tower speakers and a middle of the road receiver/amp, a decent turntable and cartridge. The sound quality blew the Carver/bookshelf/subwoofer/speaker wire fetish system out of the water.

 

[ejman]

When I recently got new speakers, I added a pair of these subwoofers:

EL HT/1003 MKII, 10” Subwoofer

Amazon.com

I like having two, each is driven only half as hard, and it spreads out the sound so that room resonances average out better. Helps avoid having a big 'wooomp' in a few notes in the bass.

My main speakers (Maggies 1.7s) are more full range than your bookshelf speakers, so I ended up adding a high pass filter to the main speakers, to force them to have a bit less deep bass. Otherwise, I just had too much mid bass ~ 80 ~ 100 Hz. If I used the crossover on the subs, by the time I got them balanced in the mid bass, they were so far down that they hardly added anything. With the high pass on the mains, I could bring the volume up on the subs, and got it nice and even.

With the higher crossover of your speakers, that should not be a problem.

Integrating subwoofers can be difficult, particularly with planar speakers (I also have Maggies 1.7) I was also having the issue of an overripe midbass when I had my sub ((HSU) back behind the speakers. I tried running the signal for the Maggies thru the sub crossover splitting it at various frequencies from 41 Hz to 91 Hz but then I found that the Maggies sound wasn't as clear and the soundstage shrank a bit. What I ended up doing is running the Maggies full signal but setting the sub right next to my chair and crossing it at 40 Hz. Problem solved and the crossover is low enough where the bass is localized at the speakers and there is no perception of sound coming right next to my chair.