Vanguard and Power of Attorney

[Odduck]

I'm working through my parents accounts after my father passed. He had a small Vanguard account and I thought I might put the benefits from life insurance there. The statements from Vanguard read: "Jt Ten WROS" with both parents listed and I'm listed online as a "Trusted Contact". But I called today to register his death and discuss removing him from the account and it went weird.

Vanguard tells me that they were already aware of his passing and they don't need a death certificate. Great.

But they need my mother to go through various forms with them. She's never touched a PC and at 87, I don't think I'm going to get her to change.

So I say, that's fine, I have a Power of Attorney for her. They tell me I have to have a signed document from a doctor declaring her unable, blah blah. No, no, the POA isn't written that way. I have her legal authority today. "xxxx hereby designates and appoints ME as her Attorney-in-Fact". I don't need to declare my mother unfit. My father was arguably unfit, but I never considered having him declared unfit and I just took care of things for him.

Vanguard says they'll have none of that. The terms of her POA don't matter to them. And the agent is telling me that he's heard this confusion from clients before. I can go to her residence and sit down with her and a PC and the phone and create an online account for her and then their agent will guide her through some forms and at least move the account ownership to her. But then I still don't have the right to move money into the account or alter her investments.

She can go through some more paperwork and assign me as a full or limited agent, sign papers with a notary and then I could do whatever those roles allow. To understand what I would be allowed to do, I need to sit down with her and an agent again and go through it all.

Is this normal?? If I want to move her assets from a high-fee investment advisor to a plain old brokerage, do I need to look elsewhere, or just work through all this crap with Vanguard? I've worked through his bank accounts, pension, a couple other things and nothing has been this difficult.

Thanks

 

[Texas Proud]

I just log onto Vanguard on my sister's account... when it asks for phone verification I call her to get the code...

There are times where I have to get on the phone with her so she can tell them to do whatever I say, but that has also gone well...

I also did this with my mom before she passed... even though I did have a POA..

 

[SecondCor521]

I'm working through my parents accounts after my father passed. He had a small Vanguard account and I thought I might put the benefits from life insurance there. The statements from Vanguard read: "Jt Ten WROS" with both parents listed and I'm listed online as a "Trusted Contact". But I called today to register his death and discuss removing him from the account and it went weird.

JTWROS just means that the money was your Mom and Dad's, and that she becomes the entire owner after you're Dad's passing. That's very typical for married folks.

Being listed as the Trusted Contact just means that if Vanguard sees suspicious activity, they'll call you and ask you if your parents are OK. It doesn't give you any power to actually do anything.

Vanguard tells me that they were already aware of his passing and they don't need a death certificate. Great.

But they need my mother to go through various forms with them. She's never touched a PC and at 87, I don't think I'm going to get her to change.

Vanguard is asking your Mom to open an account with them with just her name on it to move the JTWROS assets into her own account. This is normal, typical, and expected because the ownership and thus taxation of the assets have changed from your parents to your Mom.

She doesn't have to do it on a PC. She can mail forms back and forth with Vanguard. That will take longer and may be more error prone. You can help her with the PC aspect if you want to.

So I say, that's fine, I have a Power of Attorney for her. They tell me I have to have a signed document from a doctor declaring her unable, blah blah. No, no, the POA isn't written that way. I have her legal authority today. "xxxx hereby designates and appoints ME as her Attorney-in-Fact". I don't need to declare my mother unfit. My father was arguably unfit, but I never considered having him declared unfit and I just took care of things for him.

Sounds like the Vanguard agent doesn't understand POAs very well. A bit disappointing, but not entirely unsurprising. It's more surprising if this person was a member of Vanguard's transitions department. Or maybe there was just a temporary misunderstanding.

Vanguard says they'll have none of that. The terms of her POA don't matter to them. And the agent is telling me that he's heard this confusion from clients before. I can go to her residence and sit down with her and a PC and the phone and create an online account for her and then their agent will guide her through some forms and at least move the account ownership to her. But then I still don't have the right to move money into the account or alter her investments.

Right. See above. The only way you get the right to move money into (or out of) the account or alter her investments is if she gives you Vanguard agent authority.

She can go through some more paperwork and assign me as a full or limited agent, sign papers with a notary and then I could do whatever those roles allow. To understand what I would be allowed to do, I need to sit down with her and an agent again and go through it all.

Right. Vanguard is basically requiring your Mom to sign their agent authorization forms rather than accepting your/her POA. They do this because they don't want to evaluate and operate under the different terms from their customers for approximately 17 zillion different POAs. It's unmanageable. If all 17 zillion customers sign Vanguard agent authorization forms, then Vanguard can operate consistently and correctly under just one or two different sets of rules.

Full agent authorization is what it sounds like. Limited is limited but I'm not sure how. You can probably find general descriptions on Vanguard's websites.

Is this normal?? If I want to move her assets from a high-fee investment advisor to a plain old brokerage, do I need to look elsewhere, or just work through all this crap with Vanguard? I've worked through his bank accounts, pension, a couple other things and nothing has been this difficult.

Very normal for Vanguard, for the reasons stated above.

Other brokerage firms are reportedly more accommodating of customer POAs. I believe Fidelity is one; I don't know about Schwab. An approach would be to open an account at one of the other brokerage firms via your existing POA, then pull the Vanguard JTWROS account from Vanguard to the other brokerage.

Note that you'll have to move the assets from JTWROS to an account just in her name at some point. Whether you do that at Vanguard or elsewhere is up to you.

It's actually not that much paperwork at Vanguard. It's two forms (JTWROS -> single, agent authorization) that they can mail to your Mom. You can help her fill them out and then have her sign them, then mail them back. Probably a total of 15 pages tops for both. Vanguard can maybe even partially fill them out with your Mom's known information.

Once you go through that one time process, you can get set up with your own login at Vanguard. If you have your own accounts at Vanguard, it can be a single sign on and you can see and operate on your and your Mom's accounts seamlessly.

If you do it at another brokerage, you'll have to fill out two similar forms *plus* provide them with the POA *plus* handle and monitor the transfer. I wouldn't do that unless you think it's better long term for your Mom's assets to be held somewhere other than Vanguard in the long term.

...

ETA: You can maybe do things the way Texas Proud mentions in their reply. This is not kosher and there are some downsides to the approach.

 

[SecretlyFI]

Yes it’s normal for Vanguard - well, not the incapacity part. But Vanguard insists on having their own POA form filled out and notarized. I had durable POA for my MIL, which, like yours, OP, was not dependent on her incapacity. I sent it to Vanguard, they said that’s nice, but we need our form signed by her & notarized. Since my MIL was 92 at the time and I didn’t love the idea of taking her to the lawyer’s office again, i just had her sign it at home and then I took it to the lawyer’s office. Since she had just been there a few weeks before for the POA completion, they were nice enough to notarize it for me without her being there. Then I sent it registered mail to Vanguard (of course they needed the original with the notary raised seal) and then I was able to do everything for her accounts - online, over the phone, etc. It was worth the effort because I did need to call them with questions and with the VG-POA in effect, they happily talked to me and helped me do everything I needed to do with her accounts.

I recall reading here that others have experienced this with various financial institutions too. Some don’t accept your POA form, they only accept their own. My lawyer shakes his head and says it’s wrong, because the POA is a legit legal document. But I guess you can’t force some places to accept it.

 

[Badger]

I know this isn't quite the same but both of us have control of my wife's investments at Vanguard. I used to have to get her on the phone with them each time to make any changes but a few years ago was given access after she told them to allow me. Initially it may have involved filling out some paperwork but I just don't remember.

 

[nwsteve]

I recall reading here that others have experienced this with various financial institutions too. Some don’t accept your POA form, they only accept their own. My lawyer shakes his head and says it’s wrong, because the POA is a legit legal document. But I guess you can’t force some places to accept it.

I have seen other posters sharing their success when their lawyer sends the brokerage/bank a letter admonishing the bank/brokerage and telling them to accept the properly executed POA. I would love to see a copy just to see the wording and legalese

 

[MichaelB]

I can go to her residence and sit down with her and a PC and the phone and create an online account for her and then their agent will guide her through some forms and at least move the account ownership to her. But then I still don't have the right to move money into the account or alter her investments.

She can go through some more paperwork and assign me as a full or limited agent, sign papers with a notary and then I could do whatever those roles allow. To understand what I would be allowed to do, I need to sit down with her and an agent again and go through it all.

Is this normal?? If I want to move her assets from a high-fee investment advisor to a plain old brokerage, do I need to look elsewhere, or just work through all this crap with Vanguard? I've worked through his bank accounts, pension, a couple other things and nothing has been this difficult.

Thanks

+1@secondcor521

The Vanguard reaction to the POA is indeed strange, Is it a durable POA?

One thing you might want to try is call Vanguard when you’re with your mom and have her tell them she authorizes you to speak on her behalf for the duration of that call. Then set up her online account.

Once her account is set up you can log in and appoint yourself as an authorized agent.