When the expected happens it's not a surprise

[Kings over Queens]

Thanks for all the responses. I'm not sure if it's reassuring or concerning that everyone knows someone like this.

My father his entire life. He's since passed but my brother who lives (lived) with him shares many of his bad habits. It's heartbreaking.

 

[CO-guy]

It must be pretty stressful to be around her and watch her self-destruct.

After the cruise disaster last summer, her son described to me how upsetting the experience was to watch.

He messaged me a few days ago with the news about her finances and employment. In a follow-up message he said that the cruise they took last summer was a wakeup call for him to figure out how to help manage her financial/physical/emotional decline without getting financially involved. Her other children aren't interested in getting involved at all.

My only advice to him was to start looking at stepped care facilities in lower cost of living areas, particularly those in "Dual-Eligible" managed care states. Beyond that, I'm not sure what other informational support he can offer her.

 

[Major Tom]

I've known (and know) people like that. With everyone I have known quite well with these kinds of spending habits, it has been emotionally based, and very difficult for them to control. It's easy to be judgemental about folk with careless money habits - I certainly have been in the past. However, as my understanding has increased, I'm able to take a more empathetic stance. It's hard when it's someone you care about.

 

[ElizabethT]

I feel sorry for someone like this and most of us have/know someone like this. Is this like an alcoholic? I think this is my last year helping out people that can't be helped. My mind is saying "I have the money why not help" now I'm realizing it's always something they need money for.

OP, I read the above reply to mean that splitwdw was sincerely asking you if this person was similar to an alcoholic (not literally an alcoholic) in that the spending is a compulsion that needs to be dealt with in a manner similar to any other compulsion (alcohol, gambling, eating, etc.)

It would appear this person is simply unable to help themselves due to, perhaps, faulty brain wiring. Short of locking them down, financially, I really don't see anyway they can be helped, as clearly they are simply not capable of changing their behavior on their own.

Best of luck to those that are having to oversee this.

 

[pacergal]

It can be heart breaking to see a family member or friend in these circumstances.

You never know if it is a behavior/spending addiction, which is a mental health condition or financial illiteracy and simply unable to reconcile needs/wants with income reality, which could be remedied with education, if desired. Otherwise, they continue to spend until they can't, either because the banks, etc cut them off or because no one will rescue them anymore. Hard reality to face for someone like that.

 

[GrayHare]

Meanwhile, over at the SIRE board (Spend It, Rent Everything), posters are commenting.

"Look at that FIRE board, those deviants save rather than spend. How foolish is that? Do they think they will live forever? I was scrolling social media and saw that the world might end tomorrow."

"Surely those FIRE types have something wrong with them. Wait, Doordash just delivered my designer coffee and I still have room on one of my credit cards, I think."

"Who needs millions? I have $100 thou in my IRA and the 4% rule says I can withdraw $4000 from it per month!"

 

[CO-guy]

I've known (and know) people like that. With everyone I have known quite well with these kinds of spending habits, it has been emotionally based, and very difficult for them to control. It's easy to be judgemental about folk with careless money habits - I certainly have been in the past. However, as my understanding has increased, I'm able to take a more empathetic stance. It's hard when it's someone you care about.

I agree that the world in general needs more empathy. Though in her case, she is a screaming tornado of negative emotions to anyone in service. Restaurant servers, front desk staff, housekeeping, store employees .... the kind of person who starts by announcing, "I'm the customer and you'll do what I say."

My understanding is that her monthly mortgage payment (including taxes and insurance) is approximately 75% of her social security income. She thinks this is manageable.

 

[Dtail]

When I first met DW, she said she "didn't like money." I originally thought that statement generally meant that money is pretty much limited for most and that in life money can limit or prohibit people from having access to different things. (I thought she meant in a general sense how we're not always afforded the same financial opportunities, etc.)

I learned that "not liking money" meant not liking tracking money and/or accounting for where it goes/went and not planning for the future.

I also learned that (observed) it meant giving one's self a pass to only deal with present-day with money. Sadly, I view my wife's entire paycheck like it's disposable income because she treats her paycheck like it's disposable income. She very little EF or retirement savings, doesn't contribute to household bills, but enjoys Starbucks, restaurants, and a work rental (she works three hours away). We tried to budget together but she always drifts out of tracking and saving, and I grew tired of asking. Late last year, her debit card went to Discover which isn't accepted everywhere (was formerly MC) and she's started putting all her purchases on her Citi Visa, instead. We each have our own Citi card but the purchases go to the same account so I can't help but see her spending. She clearly has no issue rolling a balance over from one month to another while I try to pay the balance in full a couple of times a month.

Working until she wasn't able and relying on her pension was her plan. I've chosen to let her live her dream while I continue to live mine (RE).

Sometimes we just have to let them.

Just curious. Why pay the full balance more than once a month?

 

[athena53]

You never know if it is a behavior/spending addiction, which is a mental health condition or financial illiteracy and simply unable to reconcile needs/wants with income reality, which could be remedied with education, if desired.

For my friend with the Amazon addiction I think it's a misguided form of "self-care". He has two cats (yeah, I know- another expense that costs him an extra $100/month on his rent) and is always buying things like automatic feeders for them. He bought a small suitcase as a "go bag" for when he spends the night at my place or his daughter's (he lives a little over an hour away) and of course then bought things to put into it. Now he carries around a couple of substantial notebooks bound with fake leather so he can write things down. (He's very computer-literate so also has a phone, a tablet and a laptop). Gadgets are his weakness. While I admire Amazon's marketing machine ("you might also like...", "people who ordered this also ordered...") it's deadly for people like my friend.

 

[hmrambling]

Just curious. Why pay the full balance more than once a month?

Peace of mind that the balance doesn't exceed X amount. Plus I'm paid every two weeks and I like wiping out the balance when the money hits the bank. However this has been more challenging since late last year (as there seems to always be pending charges).

Next year, in retirement I'll be paid once a month, though, so it'll be growing all month. :/

I don't like owing anybody anything. And I don't want to risk those hefty interest rates. I really like having a low or no balance.

 

[Major Tom]

I agree that the world in general needs more empathy. Though in her case, she is a screaming tornado of negative emotions to anyone in service. Restaurant servers, front desk staff, housekeeping, store employees .... the kind of person who starts by announcing, "I'm the customer and you'll do what I say."

My understanding is that her monthly mortgage payment (including taxes and insurance) is approximately 75% of her social security income. She thinks this is manageable.

I just realized that my post wasn't made in reference specifically to your family member, but as a general comment on spendthrifts in general. With the behavior that you have described, particularly the demanding attitude towards those in various customer service positions, I would find it very hard to be empathetic. We all have our limits, and mine is rudeness and disrespect towards others. It doesn't sound as if you're that closely involved with her, which is a good thing. As has been said already, you can't save people from themselves.

 

[CO-guy]

I just realized that my post wasn't made in reference specifically to your family member, but as a general comment on spendthrifts in general. With the behavior that you have described, particularly the demanding attitude towards those in various customer service positions, I would find it very hard to be empathetic. We all have our limits, and mine is rudeness and disrespect towards others. It doesn't sound as if you're that closely involved with her, which is a good thing. As has been said already, you can't save people from themselves.

I have a zero tolerance policy for being around rude people. No time for those people.

The last time I was dragged into her orbit of mayhem was nearly 20 years ago. DW and I sent the invitation to our wedding and were surprised that she had RSVP'd "Yes." At 8am the morning after our wedding we were awakened by her calling on the phone in our suite.

Although she had prepaid her hotel, her card was declined for room charges. So at 8am, my new bride and I drove to her hotel, paid the $80ish hotel bill to officially check her out and then moved on with our day.

DW went in to pay the bill while I stood with her by the hotel shuttle back to the airport. When DW was asked the name of the guest she was paying for a manager said, "It's that b**ch from h**l." DW agreed. Also, FWIW, she was picked up at the airport, given a prepared meal on the ride to the hotel, shuttled between the hotel and the wedding with a huge buffet dinner, buffet breakfast at the hotel the next morning and then a shuttle back to the airport. Yet somehow in 17 hours she managed to ring up $80 in room service charges on three ice coffees and a croissant.

 

[Major Tom]

I have a zero tolerance policy for being around rude people. No time for those people.

The last time I was dragged into her orbit of mayhem was nearly 20 years ago. DW and I sent the invitation to our wedding and were surprised that she had RSVP'd "Yes." At 8am the morning after our wedding we were awakened by her calling on the phone in our suite.

Although she had prepaid her hotel, her card was declined for room charges. So at 8am, my new bride and I drove to her hotel, paid the $80ish hotel bill to officially check her out and then moved on with our day.

DW went in to pay the bill while I stood with her by the hotel shuttle back to the airport. When DW was asked the name of the guest she was paying for a manager said, "It's that b**ch from h**l." DW agreed. Also, FWIW, she was picked up at the airport, given a prepared meal on the ride to the hotel, shuttled between the hotel and the wedding with a huge buffet dinner, buffet breakfast at the hotel the next morning and then a shuttle back to the airport. Yet somehow in 17 hours she managed to ring up $80 in room service charges on three ice coffees and a croissant.

It is clear from all the info you have given about her in this thread, that not only is she really bad with money, but she also has serious behavorial problems. With people like this, I wonder how they actually came to be this way. What happened to them when they were young? It's not normal.

Like you, I have a strong dislike for rude and disrespectful behavior.

 

[TheWizard]

Just curious. Why pay the full balance more than once a month?

I'll answer for me.
I have excess retirement income hitting my checking account two or three times a month.
I maintain a certain checking account balance after all bills are paid and then move the excess to my taxable account settlement fund, and from there into various equity ETFs.

But if I have a few hundred or a few thousand of recent CC charges, then that needs to be addressed before figuring my excess amount.
So I pay off my CC BALANCES twice a month in most cases. It's an old habit and, at age 76, unlikely to change...

 

[RetiredHappy]

I only make additional payments when my charges are going to exceed my credit limit on my main credit card. This month I made 2 additional payments. That card has $25K credit limit and I made a $10K payment and a week later another $7K payment, and now I still have a balance of $10K, and the monthly statement has not even been generated yet. I still expect several thousand dollars more in charges before statement closes.

 

[sengsational]

When I get the 2% kickback from my Fidelity Visa, I boomerang it back immediately as a payment. Serves two purposes. First it removes the dribble into the cash account and second it is insurance against a missed payment fee. That never happens, because I pay in full, but that's $40 avoided if something weird happened and I didn't pay it off in full. I'd still owe the interest, but that $40 would be avoided at least.

 

[gauss]

My understanding is that her monthly mortgage payment (including taxes and insurance) is approximately 75% of her social security income. She thinks this is manageable.

Shoot... I was going to suggest if she was still working in her 70's perhaps she hadn't started Social Security yet and that could be her lifeline. Apparently not the case.

She will learn to live within her means. Don't make this your problem. Can't save everyone.

-gauss

 

[old medic]

I feel sorry for someone like this and most of us have/know someone like this. Is this like an alcoholic?

That would be my brother. Owns his house free and clear, relies on others to pay his taxes and power bills, only savings is his aluminum can collection. No real job and is looking forward to turning 62 so he can start SS.

 

[CO-guy]

Shoot... I was going to suggest if she was still working in her 70's perhaps she hadn't started Social Security yet and that could be her lifeline. Apparently not the case.

She will learn to live within her means. Don't make this your problem. Can't save everyone.

-gauss

She's been bankrupt twice, so clearly she hasn't learned to live within her means. Third time's a charm? Either way, it's not my problem.

The first time DW met her, she looked at me as we were backing out of the driveway on our way home and said, "What were her parents like? Who made that monster?"

 

[RetiredHappy]

She's been bankrupt twice, so clearly she hasn't learned to live within her means. Third time's a charm? Either way, it's not my problem.

The first time DW met her, she looked at me as we were backing out of the driveway on our way home and said, "What were her parents like? Who made that monster?"

My response would have been, I wonder that about you all the time.

 

[TheWizard]

...The first time DW met her, she looked at me as we were backing out of the driveway on our way home and said, "What were her parents like? Who made that monster?"

That seems like a pretty quick first impression.
Must have been an interesting story about what transpired during that meeting...

 

[Diogenes]

... Good thing he died from a unhealthy lifestyle before the walls came crashing in. ...

Though it may sound crass for me to say it, the above isn't such a bad strategy. It's an extreme and pathological form of "die with zero". One might lead an unstable and unbalanced life, just long-enough, to keep the imbalance hidden. Then, before disaster strikes, one shuffles off the mortal coil.

In a grander and more dramatic way, we is reminded of prominent public figures who nurture a reputation for probity and magnanimity, but who in reality are... otherwise. They have the good fortune to die before getting unmasked (or indicted). Example: Smith is founder and CEO of a flamboyant tech start-up. He's scammed droves of investors, who believed the company's lies about technological breakthroughs. The outfit becomes a "unicorn", worth billions. Then, just as the investigative reporters come knocking, Smith dies when his private helicopter crashes.

 

[sengsational]

Yet somehow in 17 hours she managed to ring up $80 in room service charges on three ice coffees and a croissant.

If there were a pill that would let me do something like that every once in a while and never feel like I was a sucker for doing it, I might actually take it. As it is, there's just no way I could make myself do it, irrespective of available funds.

I had on-board credit on a cruise one time that I "had to" spend because it was non-refundable. I almost didn't spend it all. It required a lot of effort to get it spent.

 

[CO-guy]

That seems like a pretty quick first impression.
Must have been an interesting story about what transpired during that meeting...

"Poor people" is a common topic she likes to talk about. Things like, "Only poor people shop at...... drive a ...... live in....." Somehow during her initial encounter with DW she said that "only poor people w*rk or have to take out loans to pay for college." The conversation went further downhill after DW said she did both.

There was more (and worse) but that was the start of what triggered the "monster" comment.

 

[CO-guy]

If there were a pill that would let me do something like that every once in a while and never feel like I was a sucker for doing it, I might actually take it. As it is, there's just no way I could make myself do it, irrespective of available funds.

I had on-board credit on a cruise one time that I "had to" spend because it was non-refundable. I almost didn't spend it all. It required a lot of effort to get it spent.

None of the 4 items were more than $5 or so, and there was coffee in the lobby for free. At least $60 was room service fees, minimum delivery charges, etc. DW was so surprised she had to look at what it was for.

She was also the only person in our entire wedding block that didn't book an ocean view room. Instead, she booked a garden view room and threw a fit at check in when they wouldn't upgrade her room.