Why aren’t more folks FIRE?

[Stormy Kromer]

Back to the OP's question.

Those of us who are FIRED did it on purpose Maybe all of us. I made it a point when I was 19 to be FIRED at 60. I made it at 50.

Being FIRED isn't an accident.

 

[CO-guy]

As many have already said, we live below our means and avoid debt for anything but our home mortgage.

While my better-half and I had drastically different childhoods, we both grew up "poor." Although neither of us ever went hungry, we were both fed the most economical meals, wore second-hand clothing, and were expected to care for ourselves from wake-up until bedtime. This was because we rarely saw our single parent since they worked 7 days a week to keep a roof over our heads and the lights on. In my case, I spent half the year living in a place where electricity and a 'real' roof made me the "rich" friend in my group.

Rather than having discipline, those experiences have left both of us uncomfortable living above our means and unwilling to take on debt, which has led to FI at an early age.

 

[Koolau]

The 19th century wealth didn't endure; thus the successful book, "The Missing Billionaires". What instead we have today, is tech-entrepreneurship. I tried that, and failed. But most of today's truly great fortunes, were built from tech start-ups, or perhaps their cousins in finance. They're not from inheritance, marriages or lottery winnings.

This brings me to a personal frustration with labels, the retirement-advice industry, and financial advice overall. What is "wealthy"? I don't consider some small number of millions of dollars to be wealthy... not even close.

We hear lots about strategies to accumulate a few million dollars. Save, invest, whatever. Then, maybe retire. We hear next to nothing, about how to turn $10M into $100M or $1B. We view the person with $100K, who wants to reach $1M, as aspirational. We view the person who already has $10M, who wants to reach $1B, as a greedy [expletive]. But here's the thing: a reasonably industrious person, who doesn't have a debilitating handicap or enormous burden or some great misfortune in life, can probably turn $100K into $1M, with some combination of hard work and savings. Now go try using those methods to turn $10M into $1B, or even $100M! Won't work!

For obvious reasons, on this Forum, we have a prevailing narrative... when you amass your $10M or whatever, congratulate yourself, and declare that to be "enough". Retire. Hey, I also want to retire... but I'm sorry, folks... I can't help struggling with the concept of "enough". But I also have run out ideas for how to grow further... my "human capital" is waning, and investment-skill is nothing to brag about. There is mismatch between desires and capacities, all while hearing that hey, the very concept of such desires is louche and excessive. Is it? Is that how those 19th century plutocrats saw things?

Not quite sure where you're coming from. My opinion is that, there are two kinds of people. Those who at least believe there is such a thing as enough and those who believe there is no such thing as enough.

Not everyone who believes in the concept of there being "enough" actually gets there. But clearly, no one who believes "enough" doesn't exist will ever get there.

When I FIRE'd I knew that I had enough. Now I have 3X that amount and still feel that I have enough.

If anyone (in this country - or in the "1st World") believes they are not wealthy, they need to expand their comparisons to the rest of the world. Suddenly, if you always have enough to eat, a place to lay your head every night without fear, and the "promise" that your kid can make it, then you are wealthy IMHO. (Heh, heh, thus endeth the philosophy lesson for tonight - climbing down from soap box).

 

[Koolau]

Like, like, like.

If you have enough to cover all modest expenses, or even a comfortable lifestyle, a few million can do that. But what you say is correct, not really much out there on how to get from a few million to $100 million or a billion. It’s TOUGH to do. I thought I would do that, it’s not so easy. I say I would like to be a billionaire, and that remains true, but even $100 million would work! That would allow for spending easily if $3 million a year which covers most things I can think of. Houses in the $3 to $5 million range, a similar beach house, etc, all easily attainable on that and meanwhile your money continues to grow.

I’ve amassed a few million and I’m small potatoes. It takes at least $100 million to be anything these days.

I suppose we could speculate all day about what's a lot of money vs small potatoes. $10 mil invested is about where the 1% crowd starts. 1 to 3 mil is the range for 5% crowd according to the AI chat I tried. Sounds about right from previous threads and research.

We here on FIRE Forum have become "comfortable" talking about having 1 to 10 million in invested assets, based on surveys over the years. That's actually pretty rarified territory, financially speaking. Heh, heh, and that's Americans. If you're talking about the "World" we're mostly in the 1% or 0.1% or better range, as a group.

Yes, 100 mil would be "better" and a billion would be "better" still, I suppose. But, I could manage (and do) on any amount between 1 and 10 mil but YMMV.

 

[Dtail]

Absolutely. It’s logical and doable, it’s easier to amass 7 figures than 8 or 9, but it creates a more modest lifestyle in which you MUST watch your finances.

I don't think that a decent number of folks on this forum who have a NW of between 3 and 5 million watch in a worry sense of their finances.

 

[Dtail]

Back to the OP's question.

Those of us who are FIRED did it on purpose Maybe all of us. I made it a point when I was 19 to be FIRED at 60. I made it at 50.

Being FIRED isn't an accident.

Actually for me, not necessarily by accident to fire at 57. However, earned a lot, spent a lot and saved enough, but discovered I could indeed FIRE at 57, but it wasn't a planned goal from early in life.

 

[Lorenzo]

Back to the OP's question.

Those of us who are FIRED did it on purpose Maybe all of us. I made it a point when I was 19 to be FIRED at 60. I made it at 50.

Being FIRED isn't an accident.

This goes back to what has been mentioned a few times in this thread: It just doesn't occur to some people.

When I was in my 20s and even 30s, working in corporate America and then a smaller firm, I didn't know even one person who "retired early." I didn't know it was "a thing." The thought never occurred to me to do anything but get a job, utilize the 401k, and work until 65 or I die, whichever occurred first. My father, one of his brothers, and their father all died of heart attacks before retirement age, still working hard. I'm not sure I even knew anyone who made it to retirement until I had an uncle and aunt who at about normal retirement age left New York and moved to Florida to play golf and such, like I had heard these mythical "retirees" do.

So, although we're now asking "why aren't more folks FIREd," earlier in my life I might have wondered why aren't more folks EVER able to "retire," as the term is stereotypically understood. Reaching 65 with one's health intact and enough saved to support even a modest retirement seems like achievement enough. There are some out there who are too old to work and have so little income that I hardly would call it retirement. I know this is getting a bit off the topic, but they are the other end of the bell curve from FIREd people. I suppose the middle of the bell curve is where you have people to whom a goal of FIRE just didn't occur.

 

[FD1000]

I had a high teacher define 'rich' and I've used that definition ever since:

You are rich if you can quit your job today, never have to work another day in your life, and maintain your current standard of living until you die.

Others may disagree, and that's fine. It works for me.

I agree with one change. The standard of living must be comfortable.
Two examples:
I can buy a new vehicle every 3-5 years. I have never done anything close to it, but I could.
I can buy a new house first without selling my current house.

==========

When I handed in my resignation, the VP was stunned. He told me he never had one employee who retired early on his own. He offered me to work part-time but I refused; my goal was the above.

 

[marko]

After years of pondering and coaching several people on personal finance, I have came to a conclusion that FIRE has something to do with a combination of genetics, mindset, attitude, personality and psychology. It has nothing to do with intelligence, income, skills, logic, etc. although each of those helps accelerate the journey. Simply put, you either "get" FIRE or you don't; there is no in-between. People who posses FIRE attributes are very few (<5%) by my anecdotal observation. Rest of them are too busy living "good" (i.e. hand to mouth) life today: spend too much money trying to impress people around them who may not even care to notice.

All my comments above is for people with opportunities and some education to afford those opportunities. There is a whole section of society who can't even imagine ever to stop working. They would never make enough money to just live the basic lifestyle; to have food on the table and roof over their head. As I always joke with my friends: You don't know what you don't know. They don't even know lifestyle outside their immediate communities. Education is the only tool to get out the catch 22 but again, they don't know that.

I grew up in a small town where everyone was poor (except the shark lenders). If it wasn't for my dad's college friend who had a good life in the city, I would still be there. We visited him once a year and that's how I realized that there can be a better life. Funny side story: we could never afford an ice cream in our town, but he would buy us a "king cone" (you can pick up to 10 small/tiny scoops of flavors in a large cone) when we visited him. I must have been around 10. I distinctly remember telling myself "I want a life where I can eat "king cone" any time I want". So I asked him how he can afford this lifestyle? He pointed out his education. He was an electrical engineer. I followed his path and got a masters degree in electrical engineering. It was not an easy journey (setbacks, debt, hard work) but that "king cone" kept me going. The meaning of "king cone" kept changing as I became older but never the importance of that moment. I am eternally grateful that met I my god father. My life would still be the same (poor) if I never met him. I still visit my town every few years and nothing has much changed other than smartphones. I try to "pay back" my god father by unilaterally coaching unsuspecting young folks of my town (friends and family) to the path of gainful eduction. I have "turned" 3 people so far who would have otherwise got a useless degree! They all have a good life.

There was a scene from the old movie "Diner" where a bunch of poor inner city young men somehow took a ride out to the countryside.

They came across an obviously rich young girl, going slowly along on her horse in full tack, just minding her own business.

They were mesmerized and sat there with their mouths open. One of them said to the others: "Do you ever get the feeling that there's a whole other world out there that you know nothing about?"

 

[MrBojangles]

I don't think that a decent number of folks on this forum who have a NW of between 3 and 5 million watch in a worry sense of their finances.

That kind of money allows you to live modestly/sensibly without worrying about one’s finances, eat reasonably, live reasonably, vacation reasonably, nothing over the top. I get that. And I can play that game too. But that’s not the game I necessarily wanted to play, I told myself I’m going to college so I can earn $3 to $5 million a year. That was my more modest goal then. Of course, I never even achieved that. The goal was, for me, that a million dollars is like a dollar to most folks. This may sound outlandish, but folks have accomplished just that.

This type of money allows for financial independence, but it does NOT allow for any whims (or eccentricities) the super rich can attain. I can go on a modest vacation at the beach, I cannot go on a vacation at the beach, see a $10 million place there for sale and pay cash for it. I can go to an auction and pick up an antique scale for $45, I cannot go to an auction and decide I like that original Van Gogh painting and put it on the wall of my manicured estate with my own personal vineyard.

The money most of us have in this forum allows for orderliness and not spontaneity. And that’s my point, and it’s okay, better than being broke, but does not allow for things that set me apart from the crowd. And then there are other folks out there who have so much money they can even be what I consider wasteful as in someone who purchased a banana taped to a wall as artwork for $6.2 million. You think that individual is worrying about if he has $3 million and is that enough to FIRE?

 

[imjustawarrior]

And that’s my point, and it’s okay, better than being broke, but does not allow for things that set me apart from the crowd.

I feel sorry for anyone who needs money to set him apart from the crowd. Money comes, money goes. What is left when the money goes? You surely can't take it with you.

 

[marko]

I feel sorry for anyone who needs money to set him apart from the crowd. Money comes, money goes. What is left when the money goes? You surely can't take it with you.

And it depends on the crowd. Folks here represent a small percentage of the population. Yes, there are those with vast amounts of wealth above us (they dont post here!), but there is a much larger bottom of that wealth pyramid where, at age 70, they have a negative net worth.

I'd venture that there is enough average net worth on this forum that indeed "sets us apart" from the average American "crowd". Instead of looking up, try looking down.

 

[MrBojangles]

Yes, I know I’ve done well relative to most, and that’s okay. But when your goal is to be like the ones that are household names and can act on whims…not so good. And that’s my gripe. If you went to college specifically for that goal, didn’t get in trouble, got decent grades, why can’t that happen, and quite easily, for that matter?

 

[marko]

Yes, I know I’ve done well relative to most, and that’s okay. But when your goal is to be like the ones that are household names and can act on whims…not so good. And that’s my gripe. If you went to college specifically for that goal, didn’t get in trouble, got decent grades, why can’t that happen, and quite easily, for that matter?

So you're saying that it must suck to set your goal to be the next Bezos and instead only end up with $500 million? Perspective might help. And maybe some therapy.

Sorry, college and decent grades isn't what got those people where they are.

 

[yakers]

Kind of an oddball, when I was first hired @23 I asked detailed questions about the whole retirement system, the personnel person was shocked, no new hire had asked such questions. I really liked my job but retired @57 for medical reasons. That was 2008, work was great but retirement is better.

 

[MrBojangles]

So you're saying that it must suck to set your goal to be the next Bezos and instead only end up with $500 million? Perspective might help. And maybe some therapy.

A Bezos fortune would be nice, but $100 million to a billion is a fraction of that, it should be easily attainable in this wealthy country of ours, if that’s your goal. Corporations could easily make many more jobs available and handsomely pay folks as well. With sound investing of that, and you’re there. Sadly, a low 6 figure salary is an achievement for most.

 

[marko]

A Bezos fortune would be nice, but $100 million to a billion is a fraction of that, it should be easily attainable in this wealthy country of ours, if that’s your goal. Corporations could easily make many more jobs available and handsomely pay folks as well. With sound investing of that, and you’re there. Sadly, a low 6 figure salary is an achievement for most.

Such is life. It's a bit like professional sports: for every person out on that field, there's a couple hundred (thousand?) fairly talented who wanted that spot but got cut somewhere along the line, maybe as early as high school.

Corporations aren't the avenue and can’t help get you there no matter how much they pay.

If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

 

[Alan]

I graduated from college at age 21, about 6 weeks later started working in public accounting (had the job locked in when I graduated but decided to take a break) and over a 35 year career in finance and accounting only had two 1-2 week breaks between jobs (but had one instance where I was double-dipping salary continuance and pay from a new job for about 8 weeks). Retired at age 56 after 35 years of working other than vacations and short time off between jobs. Believe it because it is true.

Very similar story here. Graduated with a EE degree at age 22 and started work immediately in the defense industry in England. Quickly moved into the chemical industry, progressed my career including a company move to the USA at ange 32, and retired at age 55 (15 years ago). Got married at college, raised 2 kids, paid for them to go through college in Texas and Louisiana. Standard company vacations, good salaries, no stock sharing or anything.

Next year will be 50th wedding anniversary so no divorces or anything to get in the way of building a good nest egg, in fact just the opposite.

 

[Keim]

I feel sorry for anyone who needs money to set him apart from the crowd.

As do I. I prefer to stand out due to my sparkling personality, wit, fashion sense and extreme height.*

In reality I try to be understated and hide in the crowd.


*Only one of these is true. Can you guess which?

 

[MrBojangles]

I have always been understated and don’t stand out from the crowd. Being FIRE, we can’t. Those that stand out from the crowd are beyond FIRE in both directions, either don’t have the money and feel the need to impress, or have vast sums and can do whatever they want.

 

[ugeauxgirl]

Several people have said that most people don't think about retiring early, and I agree with that. I was a financial advisor and asked every client at our first meeting "When would you like to retire?" Most of them looked at me blankly, and replied something like "whatever the usual age is." I pointed out to a few clients that they could retire now or could have a few years ago. They just didn't think about it being a possibility.

 

[Lorenzo]

Several people have said that most people don't think about retiring early, and I agree with that. I was a financial advisor and asked every client at our first meeting "When would you like to retire?" Most of them looked at me blankly, and replied something like "whatever the usual age is." I pointed out to a few clients that they could retire now or could have a few years ago. They just didn't think about it being a possibility.

Wow, that's great, and I wish I had had an FA who was proactive like that. In the decades I had my FA, I can't recall him ever mentioning retirement. When I was nearly out of work in the covid era, we considered a 72(t) to tap my IRA early, but he still didn't use the word "retire." When it eventually became clear to both of us that I was effectively already semi-retired, he said his firm would be glad to create a retirement plan for me. Okay. Shortly after that, he announced his own retirement, and his partner would take care of me going forward. That's when I fired him.

 

[Dtail]

I have always been understated and don’t stand out from the crowd. Being FIRE, we can’t. Those that stand out from the crowd are beyond FIRE in both directions, either don’t have the money and feel the need to impress, or have vast sums and can do whatever they want.

So overall, are you saying that you are disappointed and sad that you didn't end up being worth 100 million? If so, therapy is probably in your future.
I have never seen another post here from anyone worth 3m plus that they were unhappy with their finances.
A simple example from me. If I could afford a Lamborghini, I would probably buy it, but I am certainly not upset and it doesn't drive my day to day happiness.

 

[MrBojangles]

So overall, are you saying that you are disappointed and sad that you didn't end up being worth 100 million? If so, therapy is probably in your future.
I have never seen another post here from anyone worth 3m plus that they were unhappy with their finances.
A simple example from me. If I could afford a Lamborghini, I would probably buy it, but I am certainly not upset and it doesn't drive my day to day happiness.

I shouldn’t say this makes me unhappy, it’s just a major annoyance, and if I was worth $100 million or $500 million, if I went to the beach and dropped $5 million on a place, would I actually do that? The practical side of me says no, but the point is I like having all options open, and it’s not a matter of would I, but COULD I? Right now, no.

I am into things that are neat, one of a kind…. I like the esoteric and rare. Finances, or at least sensible finances, keep me from doing anything stupid, but if I had the kind of money I had wanted, I could buy an original Honus Wagner baseball card and not lose one wink of sleep over how much it cost me. Something I’m unable to do now. See what I mean about the eccentricities that develop with tremendous wealth. That’s a lot of money for a small card.

 

[TickTock]

I have never seen another post here from anyone worth 3m plus that they were unhappy with their finances.

Diogenes. Assuming they're worth 3m plus. Can't think of any other examples.