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Old 03-12-2013, 11:30 AM   #81
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ready yesterday,

You appear to have taken a defensive stance towards what I consider constructive criticism (below) so I hope this doesn't cause you more stress... it is meant to help

No one here but you knows the whole story. From the couple dozen posts you've painted a picture as someone who feels a great deal of responsibility and stress while at the same time showing that you have little control over dictating the direction of your company. You fear your partners motives and grip, while at the same time stating they do a fraction of the work you do. You admit that you "don't handle the business" and when asked if you could apply pressure to these partners, you indicate that they are critical to the success of the business. A CEO should have authority to dictate and steer the company in a positive direction, to cut fat and improve business. To mandate roles and responsibilities to others.

The drama factor here is high. Your responses seem to follow a pattern of emotional reaction rather than logic/reason. Emotions should be left aside when managing a company; business is business. Some here have posted GREAT advice that any CEO in your position would be greatly served to follow. Your response to that advice seems to be more excuses as to why you couldn't possibly follow it given your circumstance. You keep falling back to a stance of "I've gotten myself into a mess of a situation and don't know how to get out of it." Are you looking for advice, or just people to listen to your story?

</ end tough love analysis>

What you are going through sounds tough, and stressful. No one should have to deal with that on a daily basis. You clearly care about the dozen or so employees under you, and at one point had a great relationship with your partners. What you need to do is put on your business face when dealing with the company and partners. No more "Mrs. Nice Gal". Instead create a new persona of someone who is confident and in control. Make sure everyone involved knows it. If the partners think they can run things without you... call them out on it. I'm sure it's a bluff. Tell them why you feel you are indispensable and describe what will happen if you leave. Assume a position of power. One where they can't possibly let you go, but you have a choice to leave and put them into a world of trouble to try and manage without you. Cowering in a defensive stance will just give them ammo to come after your job/role. Giving off an aura or confidence will have the opposite effect.

Good luck!
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:10 PM   #82
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ready yesterday,

You appear to have taken a defensive stance towards what I consider constructive criticism (below) so I hope this doesn't cause you more stress... it is meant to help

No one here but you knows the whole story. From the couple dozen posts you've painted a picture as someone who feels a great deal of responsibility and stress while at the same time showing that you have little control over dictating the direction of your company. You fear your partners motives and grip, while at the same time stating they do a fraction of the work you do. You admit that you "don't handle the business" and when asked if you could apply pressure to these partners, you indicate that they are critical to the success of the business. A CEO should have authority to dictate and steer the company in a positive direction, to cut fat and improve business. To mandate roles and responsibilities to others.

The drama factor here is high. Your responses seem to follow a pattern of emotional reaction rather than logic/reason. Emotions should be left aside when managing a company; business is business. Some here have posted GREAT advice that any CEO in your position would be greatly served to follow. Your response to that advice seems to be more excuses as to why you couldn't possibly follow it given your circumstance. You keep falling back to a stance of "I've gotten myself into a mess of a situation and don't know how to get out of it." Are you looking for advice, or just people to listen to your story?

</ end tough love analysis>

What you are going through sounds tough, and stressful. No one should have to deal with that on a daily basis. You clearly care about the dozen or so employees under you, and at one point had a great relationship with your partners. What you need to do is put on your business face when dealing with the company and partners. No more "Mrs. Nice Gal". Instead create a new persona of someone who is confident and in control. Make sure everyone involved knows it. If the partners think they can run things without you... call them out on it. I'm sure it's a bluff. Tell them why you feel you are indispensable and describe what will happen if you leave. Assume a position of power. One where they can't possibly let you go, but you have a choice to leave and put them into a world of trouble to try and manage without you. Cowering in a defensive stance will just give them ammo to come after your job/role. Giving off an aura or confidence will have the opposite effect.

Good luck!
+1. I posted that I thought you actually enjoyed being in the situation you are in for the exact reasons that EvrClr has descibed here. People are giving you great advice and you are making excuses for why you are in your current situation. The advice you have been given about legal matters and business is especially good. It appears to me and apparently several others posters that your biggest problem is that you will not stand up for your rights. Since you did follow my advice and call in with the flu monday I will promise to apologize for saying I think you enjoy being in your situation if you will just follow some of the great advice given by others and stand up for yourself. I can understand if you do not like to confront people. That is okay (and perhaps some of us would be happier if we were more like that) and that is why it may be easier for you to let a lawyer or business manager figure out your business situation and do the tough work standing up to your partners.
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:26 PM   #83
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You keep talking as if you don't have the option of just walking away right now if you felt like it. Why do you feel as if that is not an option? What penalties do you think you will incur by doing so?

The fact that you seem to have mentally taken that option off the table seems like it would really disadvantage you in talking to your partners.
Outside of not being paid, I think I could be in breech of contract with the companies we have contracts with.
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:28 PM   #84
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I think some of the posters here are being too rough on RY. It is tough dealing with business partners when they start out as your friends. I have had to cut the cord in the past for my own self interest. It is not the easiest thing in the world to do even though it made the most sense financially.
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:45 PM   #85
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I just meant to point out that business and friendships don't mix. You can still be friends with people in the business, but you can't second guess putting the company ahead of personal situations. I know that is easier said than done.

I've never run my own company, but a really good friend of mine was in a similar situation to OP. In his case there were 4 involved in the partnership (husband, wife, husband, wife) and they employed a couple dozen people. The company was set-up and run by the husbands, but on paper was controlled by the wives, for tax advantages. That being the recommendation from the start by husband #2 who handled all the finances. The first husband (my good friend) admitted to not knowing the money side of the business, but was very good at the contracts and managing side of things - a very technical guy and great leader. In that way they worked well together and had a long history, college roommates.

Five years ago, my friend began to confide in me some of his frustrations over how his business partner was running things on his end. He started expensing things that my friend knew he wasn't supposed to (all of his dinners, a $30K gold watch, his cars, his live in nanny even became an employee of the company with benefits and all). My friend didn't know how to stand up to him because of the friendship thing, until his partner started working half the time he was before, taking 20+ weeks vacation and trying to work remotely (it was affecting the business)... at that point my friend threatened to dissolve the company and out the partners bad business practices unless he sold his half of the company (extortion?). It worked. Long story short, wife #1 took over CFO work and husband/wife #2 got a huge payday for being bought out - he seemed happy it happened, focused more on short term financial gain. They had to let go a few employees in the process but now the company is run entirely by husband/wife #1 and is thriving. Can you imagine the potential legal and personal issues he'd still be dealing with if he had not stood up to the partner a few years ago? I'm not convinced he's out of the woods yet on all of that.

I'm convinced husband #2 is going to end up on a future episode of American Greed. Word is he's starting another company on his own.
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Old 03-12-2013, 01:27 PM   #86
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Outside of not being paid, I think I could be in breech of contract with the companies we have contracts with.
You personally would be in breech of contract, or your employer?
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Old 03-12-2013, 01:40 PM   #87
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Whew, what a lot of drama.

RY, please go back to Rambler's post a few pages back.
Print it out. Tape it to the mirror in the bathroom.
And do that. Even if that is all you do, do that.
And get some high-deductible catastrophic coverage for your DH.

There's other good advice here, but that is what you need for the business. The rest of it is emotional drama with your partners, and God knows none of us have all the answers on how to deal with that.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:16 PM   #88
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My belated take on your situation, Ready Yesterday, is that you really don't have any leverage TODAY against your business partners and perhaps they realize that. You sound like you spend almost every penny you earn.

You really could not deal (on a personal finance level) with losing your currently high income from your business. This puts you in a particularly weak negotiating position with your business partners, because they know if you quit, your household earns almost nothing. In contrast, it sounds like all of your business partners have full time outside employment that they could rely on if you dropped out of the business. So their loss would be the value of their business interest goes to zero, and their income takes a big hit, but they all still have their full time jobs outside of your business venture.

I would guess they can see that you like to spend money (clothes, cars, nails, hair, other exorbitant spending), and they may know you can't just walk away from the business because you have to have the income to avoid bankruptcy and destitution.

Others have made great suggestions and I'll add a few of my own that will probably be duplicative.

1. Figure out what you are spending, then spend less. A lot less. This way you can save more (outside the business), and have the flexibility to walk from the business if you want. And some day retire.

2. Get more business savvy. Figure out who your contacts are at these megacorps, so that you could run the business and marketing side of the operation if you needed to. That will also give you leverage against your business partners, if you demonstrate that you have the skills and knowledge to strike out on your own.

3. Set up a good plan and timeline for what happens over the next 2 years to get you where you want to be in life (business, personal finances, the path to ER). There will probably be some professionals involved (lawyer and/or business strategist/consultant and/or accountant). There is no reason you couldn't be pulling in a much larger share of what sounds like maybe a million bucks per year that you are portraying as being generated primarily by your personal service. Or working a much more reasonable schedule while still earning a big chunk of a few hundred thousand dollars per year. Of course all this will take careful planning and thought to get you ready to either play hardball with your partners or quit the partnership and venture out on your own. If your partners play as minimal a role as you have portrayed, then it shouldn't be too hard to work yourself into a position where you could run the whole show yourself with the help of 1-2 more people.

To summarize, I don't see you as anywhere close to being able to retire early today, but depending on the changes you can make in personal finances and your business endeavors, you could be on the short track to ER in a couple years.

As always, see my disclaimer below regarding "I'm not your attorney".
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:41 PM   #89
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It's taken me a while to get thru this thread. I would not run to a lawyer...just yet. Instead, like another suggested, spend time getting your corporate documents. Yes I know you already said you were doing that. Do you not have any By-Laws at all These would be in addition to the Articles of Incorporation. There are certain state laws a company has to follow and in the absence of formally written By-laws, state law becomes applicable. I would spend time becoming familiar with corporate governance and the corporate laws of your state. I would then become familiar with the laws covering "shareholder rights". As a shareholder, you have those rights as well.

Every partner owns equal shares. How many partners are there? Are you in the minority? If so, I'm afraid you don't have a lot of power. Not a great place to be in.

Salaries are set with you making $40k more but distributions are equal...which is required if you are an S-corp (all shareholders must be treated equal).

I'm going to assume in the absence of By-laws majority vote rules. Do you have board meetings? If not, you should as not having any corporate governance at all is not wise and puts all of you at risks for liability. It takes 66 2/3rds majority (Super majority) to typically do something as drastic as selling the company.
Rambler has already suggested some of this. But I'm afraid if you are a minority owner with little power....then the others don't have to do anything. It does not matter that you were a founding owner if you are in the minority. What matters is how many shares you have versus a majority.

Is California a "work at will" state? Meaning you can be fired for any reason other than a civil liberties cause?. Yes...even as an owner, you can be fired as an employee when you have little power. Not saying that will happen....just be aware...because it sounds like you guys are not friends anymore.

From what I have read, it sounds like the best you may be able to do is to "change" the circumstances that are creating so much stress. Unless of course you want to start World War III.

Definitely get more time off. I suggest rather than "asking for their permission" you adopt the stance of "telling them what you are going to do". Period. Take your power back!

A deferred compensation arrangement where you leave the company for "X' dollars paid to you over the course of "X" years is a possibility....BUT...you may have to fight for it and given you may be in the minority an easy vote on this may not be likely.

Will you have less working leverage when the 2 years is up since that contract expires?

Think in terms of creating "leverage" to sway the others your way. If the company is surviving on mostly your blood, sweat and tears, I would think you have that now.

And if you get to the point of "give up" and really want out and all else has failed there is always a "shareholder derivative action" but those can be tough to win, especially if you are one of the owners. This would be the World War III option. But you need cause for this...such as the wasting of corporate assets, lack of board governance, breach of the corporate veil......etc.
Simply put, it never hurts to know what your rights are or are not.
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:13 PM   #90
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Interesting thread. R-Y, you seem defensive at times, and the internet lacks tone, so my comments are not meant to be an attack. My mother worked for years for a fellow who was an amazing insurance broker and a total horror at running the biz. I can appreciate that the two are not always aligned.

- I am pretty amazed that you watched medical bills wipe out your father's net worth but let your husband go uninsured.

- You have about $1M in real estate equity. If you liquidated the rentals (or was prepared to) you'd be a better position to deal with your potential financial turmoil.

- How much are the equity distributions? Looking at effort, I'd say each of your partners need to take a haircut and you deserve more in pay, plus two more weeks in vacation. Might be an easier pill to swallow if its coming out of equity distributions vs "salary", though I agree their salaries are not equal to value. By coming out of equity I mean, your salary goes up, theirs stays the same, profits go down, less available for distributions.

- Is any one watching the accountant? Easiest spot to rob the company blind. Especially with the "late" financials.

- You say one partner could step into your role. Is that person full-time employed elsewhere? You could have more leverage than you think.

- Who has the relationship with the major client? If you asked, would they move with you? Such a result would likely get you into a lawsuit down the road, but a detail worth knowing.

- We haven't even started with you personal budget. You touched on some crazy telecom and utility bills. Put your husband on that. Is he good with numbers? Find some deals, get him to work the budget. It shouldn't be on your plate given your stress. For that matter, why isn't the company paying your cell phone bill?

- I wouldn't rush the S-Corp vs C-Corp analysis. The problem is your pay structure. I wouldn't volunteer for paying an extra level of tax. Fix the pay structure. There are companies with billions in sales structured as S-Corps.

Good luck.
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:28 PM   #91
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As always again thank you for the thoughtful answers! Evrlerx (sorry cannot scroll for proper spelling) I only think i was defensive when I believed i was called a troll. and a victim when after reading the first few comments realized that I was screwed and i put myself in this position. Has no one ever said that? LOL You are all in perfect marraiges, relationships, partnerships, work situations? You honestly have never said "oh dude, I am SCREWED" never? Ttrying to get out is, as i am finding, a difficult task. I do not know where you are finding me blowing off advice--i am copying and saving most of the advice have given me...and have spent all day yesterday and until 3am this morning searching s-corp stats and my own paperwork for things like Bylaws, a lot of things are not in my posession and i am doing what i can to locate them. i am putting most every bit of advice I am gettin into action. Those that I cannot act on (as in walking away) i am explaining why i cannot act on! Maybe i should stop that as it's coming off as defensive, when all i think is that I am explaining

Looking hard at my spending over the past couple of days, it's easy to see where the cash has gone as I have stated. House, first and formost, clothing, yes I buy a lot. but I don't pay top dollar for anything. As far as you know I shop at Sears or have no taste at all. (not to mention my partners never see me) i coupon. these are fact I thought were a bit much to add in an intro post as long as mine.

I also believe I mentioned I had changed my savings from 10 percent at the start of the year, put 140,000 in cash towards a refi, although i don think i mentioned that I have saved 20,000 dollars since I did that, in December, in additon to the money that goes out to my maxed out 401K

I dont understand why some of you do not think that I am not taking much of your adice. I have sent many private "thanks yous" with notes but I admit I do not know where they go of if you get them.

to answer again. My company is contracted for services which I provide. yes my name is in the contract as the person who provides the services.

Fuego you are correct that I don't have leverage against my partners, who number 5 total. So I cannot give myself a raise. All partners, as i read in an s-corp must vote unanimosly or in the majority (and i do not have my notes in front of me at this moment) so I am outnumbered. Someone else noticed that too.

It is odd that now a few are saying I am in no position to ER, but the latest FIRE calc actually gets me where I would like to be with between 67 and 100 percent success rate, depending on how much i save, how much i need years, and depending on keeping or selling the rentals.

The fact is, I am really burned out. and I was looking for info on the s-corp situatuion (which i originaly thought was a c-corp) as i could not find the info that I wanted online. I am getting more info here, Thanks Sheesh1,you gave me more than I have ever found in a search. Ever!
Perception is reality and if you find me defensive,well, I did not come here to change YOUR mind. (whoops, was all caps defensive?) I came here to try to find info, and in between some attacks which are nothing I can't handle, I am getting good and solid advice.
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:38 PM   #92
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...from the guy who originally said "suck it up", lol!

Your comment about breach of contract was exactly why I said this, as this was my impression from your posts. So get thru the next two years making sure you use all vacation and sick time that you have available to you and spending some time to engineer either your: 1) exit 2) new partnership agreement 3) new company 4) early retirement.

I also don't understand the comments about not "running" to a lawyer. I absolutely think you should see a lawyer. Do not sick this lawyer on your partners tho. The idea is to get a legal opinion on where you stand with the company. Many of the questions you asked here can only be answered by a lawyer.

If you cut thru the BS here, it's pretty simple from the info provided: you need to put in two more years due to contractual obligations (again, a lawyer may tell you different). You need to de-stress by selling rental properties, using vacation, sick time, therapy, whatever will work for you.
After the two years, you are now in a position of strength to negotiate with the partners, or just walk away if you can make the $$ work. That, of course, is another issue.
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:43 PM   #93
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sesq--we were typing at the same time. I am using Quick Reply which does not offer the option of smileys.

I honest to god have not felt a bit defensive--and i eagerly look forward to advice daily, every time i log on here (in fact i have not logged off) i am laughing at most of the assumptions---so many are not true. some are.
however, my finances are not in a shambles, I am doing better thn 98 of the population in the us and probably the world. my ER is what is not working out at the moment. My stress has gotten to me. I shop at Target--yes I said it. Give me a smiley. i am not kidding. i am laughng haha, i AM. (but I do) I make almost doublepayments on my car! i only have to make 12 a year but i make 20 a year so that it is paid off if I walk in two years. Even when my horrible interest only mortgage was 4000 a month i paid extra to pay down principal. Maybe the car loan can be cutback on, i just hate owing money and the car is the only thing i owe on.
Now the business, that is the whole 'nothing story.
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:48 PM   #94
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Hi ready yesterday, reading about your situation is enough to give me a headache so I can't imagine how stressful it is to walk in your shoes. You have received some good advice here and there is nothing I can add. But I wanted to wish you good luck!
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Old 03-12-2013, 04:00 PM   #95
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Panhead--LOL. You grasp the situation perfectly. The only thing I am really struggling with is the 2nd rental. That place is a perfect place to partially ER. A two week stay in the same area would cost as much as 2 months at the rental. Granted it only clears 800.00 now but I am not really marketing it much and can do much more. It's a special place to us and is not costing a dime. The flip side of course, is selling it too, and having no mortgage. but never ever being able to buy anything again in retirement with no real chunk of income coming in, that's a scary thought for me too.
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Old 03-12-2013, 04:02 PM   #96
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-i am copying and saving most of the advice have given me...and have spent all day yesterday and until 3am this morning searching s-corp stats and my own paperwork for things like Bylaws, a lot of things are not in my posession and i am doing what i can to locate them.
Looking hard at my spending over the past couple of days, it's easy to see
.
ready yesterday....if you are unable to locate documents, contact the State Corporation Commission for California. Those documents needed to be filed when the S-Corp was established and should be on file with them.
Also...you should be able to have them also provide a copy of the yearly filing for who the directors are. I would recommend you do this as well since perhaps others have had their foot on the pedal....just to make sure you are listed as a director.....or if not...to find out who is.
You may have to put the request in writing.

There is little difference between a S-Corp and C-Corp. The only real difference is the tax status...meaning who owes the tax. In a S-corp, the shareholders have the tax liability and in a C-corp, the corporation has the tax liability. Typically in the past it has been beneficial to be an S-corp rather than a C-Corp. In a C-corp, if dividends were paid to shareholders they risked double taxation, once inside the corporation where the corporation paid tax on it's profits and and again outside the corporation where the shareholder paid tax on the distribution.

What revenue would you attribute to the other owners.? Give us some idea of the percentages. Meaning, if you bring in 50% what do the others bring in?
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Old 03-12-2013, 04:11 PM   #97
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ready yesterday....if you are unable to locate documents, contact the State Corporation Commission for California. Those documents needed to be filed when the S-Corp was established and should be on file with them.
Also...you should be able to have them also provide a copy of the yearly filing for who the directors are. I would recommend you do this as well since perhaps others have had their foot on the pedal....just to make sure you are listed as a director.....or if not...to find out who is.
You may have to put the request in writing.

There is little difference between a S-Corp and C-Corp. The only real difference is the tax status...meaning who owes the tax. In a S-corp, the shareholders have the tax liability and in a C-corp, the corporation has the tax liability. Typically in the past it has been beneficial to be an S-corp rather than a C-Corp. In a C-corp, if dividends were paid to shareholders they risked double taxation, once inside the corporation where the corporation paid tax on it's profits and and again outside the corporation where the shareholder paid tax on the distribution.

What revenue would you attribute to the other owners.? Give us some idea of the percentages. Meaning, if you bring in 50% what do the others bring in?

On the retirement side, most try to use a factor of 25 to 30 times annual spending needs saved for retirement before they would ever consider retiring. That too depends on the age of retirement. Someone in their 40's has to allow for more years...etc.
Some deduct SSN and other income revenue from that calculation while others may not. It's a personal choice. Best to do a budget to see what you are actually spending and work from there.
For example: Let say you need $50,000 annually in addition to the other revenue sources you have.
$50,000 X 30 yrs = 1.5 million
Don't forget to factor taxes, health care and big costs items (roof repairs) into whatever your calculation is.
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:37 PM   #98
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Panhead--LOL. You grasp the situation perfectly. The only thing I am really struggling with is the 2nd rental. That place is a perfect place to partially ER. A two week stay in the same area would cost as much as 2 months at the rental. Granted it only clears 800.00 now but I am not really marketing it much and can do much more. It's a special place to us and is not costing a dime. The flip side of course, is selling it too, and having no mortgage. but never ever being able to buy anything again in retirement with no real chunk of income coming in, that's a scary thought for me too.
You can still buy whatever you want in retirement. If you have the money. You aren't thinking like a wealthy person yet. Whether you finance a property by using a mortgage or pay cash for it, you are paying for it. The funds to pay for the property come from your wealth. Apparently others on the forum haven't had a hard time getting a mortgage in retirement, as long as you have adequate wealth to show you aren't a credit risk (and don't mind shopping around a little in case the first lender you walk into won't give you a loan since during ER you won't have a W-2).

I wanted to touch on your possibilities for ER. I may have missed something in this long thread and your long first post, but it appears you are going from spending around 15000 per month last year to planning on spending $3000 per month during ER? That is such a huge drastic cut in lifestyle I find it hard to believe that many could make that change successfully long term. Not to say you can't live well on $3000 per month and a paid off house - I currently do that and plan on continuing that into ER. But to cut your expenses by 80% would seem to put you living a substantially different lifestyle. Is that even possible in the social circles you run in and in the neighborhood or city you live in?

But, assuming for the sake of argument you can live on $3000 per year, you could probably do it with a million bucks in your portfolio (at least partially invested in equities) or half a million and $1500 per month net from your rental(s). Add in social security and you are even closer. So if that monthly spending target is realistic, maybe you are very close to being able to ER. If it were me, I would try to live on that $3000 per month and see if you are comfortable living like that forever.

Don't forget to factor in new cars, house repairs, paying your own house insurance and taxes (are those currently paid through your mortgage?), on top of all the other obvious expenses (medical, dental, groceries/toiletries, dining out, travel, gas and electric utilities, phone, cable, internet, auto maintenance and gas, entertainment/toys/fun, clothes, gifts, charity, home furnishings).

I would be curious to see what exactly the $3000 per month spending figure you are targeting includes? In your OP you list $600/mo health insurance, $500/mo HOA, $300-400 for gas, water, and electric, $200/mo for beauty/hair, and more for cable, cell, phone, internet, etc. That gets you pretty close to $3000 already and there isn't a penny budgeted for keeping up a $900,000 house, or insuring it. Or buying groceries (your husband will do that with his freelance $$?). Or dining out. Or traveling or other fun stuff.
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Old 03-12-2013, 06:27 PM   #99
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Sheesh1. 1.5 million is a really nice number. i like having something to aim for now. Great stuff.
One of my problems is that I had not really cared what the other partners were making as long as I got "this" much. To use the 'band' analogy, we were just so damn happy in the beginning that we had a sellable, viable product/service that we were finally making money on...we were ALL really happy. Then the money got pretty big.

Back then, I never needed to be "rich' I enjoyed the freedom of self employment then as there was MUCH less work even along with much less cash (which, lots of people could live on as I did) .
So I am a bit on the spot as to what a ratio would be for compensation. I have not thought about them as much as I have me.
Let me just say that 100,000 is too damn much.

I have found the Articles of Incorporation which look very generic to me. and i am going to find a generic form to see if that is all they are if such a thing exists. I am still searching for By Laws. I am not the CEO. In fact I turned down titles of CEO and CFO at the start for the very reason that I was not at all versed in business, and a few of the others had much more business knowledge and financial background than I did.

Now as far as our horrific phone bills and internet combined I pay for my own cell, use as a write off and use for all purposes. I do not want a 2nd phone for business. But hubby is on the case of the costs. Poor guy. You whipping me into shape is also whipping him into shape. (so sometimes the smileys do work in quick reply?)
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Old 03-12-2013, 06:33 PM   #100
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Fuego, i actually can document that spending but I think that I am a bit overwhelming at this point. In short. I get 16,000 per month, (32,000 this year so far) and since december 31 i have saved 20,000 dollars. Let me tell you shelling out well over 100,000 grand for a refi will cause a girl to save cash REAL quick.
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