Contemplating The Big Move

Hi Donner. Your plans, circumstances and lifestyle
(present and future) are so far removed from anything
in my experience, I really can't advise you
(on your retirement). I do agree with Nords though.
You'll know when you are ready. At least I did.

JG
 
Hi Donner,

Your problem is really the same as everyone else's. You choose a lifestyle you're comfortable with, figure out what it takes to support it, estimate the time it will take you to get there, and then iterate until you can find an acceptable balance between the lifestyle you want and the time it takes at work to get there. It sounds to me like your lifestyle choice is pretty non-negotiable. That's good. It means you know what you really want and I think there are a lot of people who don't. So the only solution is what Nords reccommends -- work till you get there. I guess you could consider holding up a bank or winning the lottery, but I don't see any other realistic solutions.

Good luck. :D
 
Donner, one thing I noticed in your posts is that several times you mention things like "this is the standard of living around here" and "this level of spending isn't out of line around here." I may be wrong, but it sounds a lot like you're measuring your "needs" based on your neighbors. Fine if you want to do that, but since I doubt many (if any) of your neighbors are planning on ER, emulating their spending may not exactly be the best move to secure your own ER.

It just looks to me like you have a lot of loose spending in your budget... things that you could spend less on without even really noticing. It may seem like not worth the trouble to you, but the way I figure it, if you manage to cut back even 10% of spending, that's the equivalent of a 10% untaxed return on your money!

I also think you have some fixed ideas about what spending less is all about, and they may be in your way... for instance, your alternative to spending $500/month on a car (a car loan, I assume?) is not just to drive a clunker. There are plenty of inexpensive cars you could buy for cash and maintain decently for many years. This is an easy choice for me, personally, as I am not emotionally invested in my car, and I have no problem parking my Hyundai Accent next to my neighbor's BMW - it may not be the same for you. But it's worth actually working out how much you are spending to keep up an image, and how much that image is really worth to you. If it's worth it, great! But then at least you will know what you are getting for your money.

Just my two cents!
 
My thoughts follow those of Holly. This lifestyle sounds more of an image thing to remain competitive with the neighbors and friends. That's obviously a personal choice, and if you choose to keep it, then stick with Nords advice and continue working until the numbers work.

I know you have not asked for comments on your lifestyle and that is fine. But I can't help but offer a few thoughts. FWIW, my family and I lived in the Langley area on the banks of the Potomac for 2 years in the early 1990's and my spouse and I did not have anywhere close to that level of expense. We lived in a nice 2 story executive on 1/3rd acre for less than 20% of the $3 million dollar homes and were the happier for it compared to the stress of high living neighbors. Also costs a heck of lot less to register a Nissan Maxima in FFX County than a BMW as well. Shopping in Tyson's Corner rather than the Galleria is a lot more satisfying.

If you can stomach it, downsizing to reduce or elminate the mortgage is a winner. Not to mention the knockon effect of reduced property taxes, utilities and housekeeper. On the day of retirement, Imy wife and I intend to drop life insurance completely - the spousal pension benefit will suffice nicely augmented by investment returns.
 
I think you should reevaluate your need for Life and LTC Insurance at retirement. Without those in your budget, you would be down below 98K and going a little easy on the "like to haves" would put you down to the 94K level. At that point all you would need to withdraw is enough to pay taxes and you have enough now to more than cover that.

To look at it another way, your premiums of $10,927 per year are really costing $15,600 when you factor in taxes (if you can deduct the LTC it would lower the number a bit) This is equal to more than 10% of your total budget.
 
Most people come here with the idea that ER is something they want to make happen as soon as possible, and thus are a little more flexbile when it comes to budgeting suggestions. However, if you don't mind working longer, and your very high standard of living is truly non-neogtiable then great! It just makes it hard for a lot of people here to relate, or give you very creative advice.

Anyway, I agree with the other comments. The life insurance is the first thing that jumped out at me when I read your expenses. Life insurance is to replace lost income, so if your pension plans have survivor's benefits I would drop it all together once you retire.

I also agree with paying off the mortgage. This close to retirement, reducing your fixed monthly expenses will probably get you further than saving more - especially since you mentioned that you are a conservative investor. Run the numbers and see if it makes more sense to pay off the mortgage vs. stuffing your TSP.

The comment about the phone expenses being an estimate made me wonder how much your projections are based on actual expenses. As you continue to work, using Quicken to keep track of every penny might give you more peace of mind.

Won't comment on your lifestyle choices except to say that there is a whole range of possibilities between $24K and the $108K budget you presented. Most people here FIRE somewhere in the middle of these two extremes, and they aren't eating dog food or driving around in clunkers.
 
Mikey, I regretfully must decline your invitation to dinner.  In advance.   For the forseeable future.
Damn! Just when my freezer is getting low on meat!

Mikey
 
No debt, no life insurance. Also, no "dog food" (except for the dogs) and no "clunkers" here. Since I've been posting
(a while) I have never seen a new poster so far out
of where I am living. But, I want everyone to be happy
(even liberals as long as they are far away), so I hope it works out.

JG
 
No debt, no life insurance.
No life insurance for me either. Mikey's Rule #1 is to always be worth more alive than dead!

Mikey
 
First, thanks to youRe: Contemplating The Big Move

First, thanks to you all for taking the time to respond to my first post here. Your comments and observations have been quite interesting. In some ways they have been what I expected them to be and in other ways somewhat surprising.

It is no surprise to me that a lot of you think I need to keep working a bit longer to prepare to maintain our current lifestyle over a 30 year retirement period. After all, thats what I think, too.

I expected to get a lot more portfolio allocation questions. In particular, I thought Cut-Throat would checkmate me into a discussion of how I propose to handle risk in retirement. I dont want to put words in his mouth but he has impressed me in past posts with his appreciation that overall risk entails both market risk as measured by share price volatility but also inflation risk in the form of eroding purchasing power over time. I expected him to challenge me to choose my poison along the lines of you can protect against one or the other but probably not both. I expected to hear a lot more diversify, diversify, diversify admonitions. Believe me, I have been thinking long and hard about a 50/50 allocation with 30% S&P 500, 10% Small Cap, 10%International and 50% Govt Bond allocation. Another option is to throw the whole thing in the new life cycle fund the Govt TSP will soon be offering and just forget about it. Problem is, as you know, I just don’t like what the equity market has become over the years. We should have a whole thread on this topic alone.

I am truly surprised that nobody zeroed in on the $10k out of pocket health care costs that I have embedded in the projected retirement budget. I guess I just slipped that one past you all. This is no joke and is based on real experience. Wife and I both max out a Flexible Spending Account of 4K apiece and we blew through it by Oct of this year. When I spread sheet that out 30years at a 7% inflation rate the numbers would make you LOL. It is scary what it will do to a portfolio. This is the real dagger at the throat of our retirement

With a nod to Cut-Throat the effects of inflation on the portfolio are prodigious. Its interesting to observe the progression. At first the portfolio balance grows annually as the nominal earnings on the portfolio exceed the required draw for the first few years. Then that health care inflation catches up (not to mention property tax inflation) and passes both the less than COLAed annual income adjustments and the reasonably expected rate of return on the portfolio. As you get to the outyears the portfolio balance drops precipitously, portfolio income dries up, and annual draws start chewing great gashing holes in your stash. Pretty soon you are stuck 1500 feet from the summit of the Sierra Nevada, with 5 feet of snow falling. You are done, just like George Donner.

I am mildly surprised, but not totally shocked, at the life style cluck cluck clucking. I did warn many of you that we do indeed apparently live on different planets. For clarification, we live in a nice, but not too nice, neighborhood in Arlington, Va. which is inside the beltway. We live in a small 1952 2 bedroom brick rambler in near mint condition. We married late in life, my first, her second. Bought the place in 1990 for $280K. Today it has a $296K mortgage on it at 5 1/8%. Wont talk about the current market value. Its all illusory. We drive a 4 year old Chrysler. We dont consciously play keep up with the Jones. Dont wear fancy clothes or have expensive toys. Definitely not the yuppie type.
We both work, we both get hungry and we both like to go out to dinner when we can. Tell you what : 2 cocktails at $6.50 is $13; 2 appetizers at $6.50 makes it $26. 2 entrees at $25 makes it $76; Skip the dessert; add 8% tax (10 % in DC) makes it $84; add a 20% tip ( never on the tax friends, never on the tax) and bingo its $100. Now, if that is extravagant to you, well, we just have to agree that we are indeed on different planets. Dont you guys ever take your wives to dinner? No? Yes, but it costs you a lot less in your wonderfully scenic low cost area? What kind of ptomaine pits are you dragging the love of your life to anyway? You ladies let them get away with that?
 
Hey Donner. I must confess that it briefly crossed my mind
that you were not for real. I found your info so weird
that I thought it might be a big put-on. However, I now
accept you as a real "case", but I still can't help you much.

As far as how we treat our women, I still take my wife out to expensive dinners and venues, just not very often. My former spouse was very high maintenance, and that is why she is my "former" spouse.

JG
 
Brat Thanks for the suggestions. Will look into the single coverage on the health plan. A little bit of inertia on that. Have been on the family plan since we were married. Dont think we will be moving to NW though. Sounds nice I and I would love to visit some time.
 
JG Yeah, I am for real. You are one of my favorites on this board. Between you and me I am a pretty conservative guy. I would enjoy buying you a beer someday. You remind me a lot of my late dad. A real free enterpriser. You do it your way and he did it his and to hell with what anybody made of it. Just please allow me the same privilege. We are on different paths brother but aint diviresity great?
 
Nords Your suggestions are on point. A couple other posters have locked into the heavy insurance load I will be carrying into retirement. If I check out the wife will get 55 percent of my annuity and she will lose my SS payment. My expensive Fed term insurance will serve to replace most of that lost income. Yes her expenses will drop but she accounts for most of the expensive stuff anyway.No I dont think I am any longer insurable and what coverage I have is it.
 
Beachbumz See my response to Nords. I think people have to see our health care expenses, LTC insurance, Life insurance, Fee for Service health insurance, reluctance to leave our doctors to move to cheaper housing, our need for housekeepers etc as all related and as sort of on a continuum of needs as we enter ino retirement. Not everybody can afford to fly loosey goosey and self insure. I have to deal with what I have o deal with.
 
Re: First, thanks to youRe: Contemplating The Big

What kind of ptomaine pits are you dragging the love of your life to anyway?
Thanks, Donner. I think that's the first time a post on this forum caused me to break out the dictionary :)
 
Hey hey hey................you mean I never posted
anything that caused you to consult your Funk and
Wagnalls? I am profoundly hurt :)

Wab, I am still on the diet, and even though
my LDL dropped like a rock I am stuck now
(still high). But, I am eschewing (look that up) any
prescription meds. That scares me more than high
cholesterol.

JG
 
FlowGirl Thanks for the comments. Wish I could dump the mortgage. Could if we were willing to move. But that would be a real big move for us right now. Yeah, I agree that just about everybody could slash their own budget in one way or anoher. The birds could well be set loose to fend for themselves for example.

But I hink a lot of people are missing the point. I think we a relatively close to bulletproofing the retirement budget I set out for you. I figure if both wife and I work 2 more years that will do the trick between increased annuities and portfolio growth. Or if wife wants/needs to retire in 2005 I could carry on for another 4 or so years and accomplish he same thing. If I can cover this nut why not?
 
JG, your eloquence is matched only by your obstinance. And the low-carb diet just brings your system to a new equilibrium that's a little bit more insulin friendly. Once you plateau, it's time to consider exercise and niacin, for example.
 
Guilty as charged. Wab, I saw my GP/MD on Tuesday and
forgot to ask about the niacin. I have liver problems and
so just about any prescription med worries me.
He prescribed WelChol which is supposed to be pretty
benign. I was going to try red rice yeast, but that carries some of the same risks as statins. Anyway,
there is no cardiac trouble on either side of my family tree. No strokes either that I know of, so I am not too worried. I have ratcheted up the exercise as of today
and will check out the niacin. Thanks for the reminder.

JG
 
Salaryguru Holly and Altared

Thanks for all your comments. I appreciate that many, maybe most, peolle on this board may have a hard time relating to our cost structure.Part of that is due to our life choices and part is due to where we live. The car is an interesting case in point. I used to drive around in a 1979 Thunderbird. Big as a boat. Loved that thing. But that thing had issues. I was not comfortablel with Mrs Donner driving old clunkers out on RT 66. Made the choice to upgrade to a new Chrysler. It simply is importan to me to have a good reliabloe car
to ge her around in. Call hat an expensive life style choice if you must but there it is.

Altared if you move back this way today you will be in for a shock. We are now in real estate lala land with much of he rest of he country.
 
Mikey Your earlier comment to he effect that time is flying by and we will never be able to replace these days of relative health is very much on my mind as we contemplate retirement. My dad used to say that at some point you have to decide what is more important:
your time or money. We are closing in on that decision point. Wife and I are both contemplating the best path to transition from "The World of Work" which we are well acquainted with to what I would call "The World of Living" which we are just beginning to come to grips with. Differfent propositions altogether.

If I have missed anybody I apologize. I do appreciate all the comments which werfe all obviously made with good intentions Thanks to all.
 
"Real estate lala land" got me to thinking. I am sure
many of you will enjoy this.

We live in an 1100 square foot "cottage" with 100 feet
of frontage on a pretty big river. Plenty of space for us and 4 dogs. I paid $68,000 in 2001. Now, I have put
quite a bit into the place since, but it was never really a
fixer-upper. I would guess our place is about in the middle range of value here. There are about 30 homes
on the water. I would guess the prices from $50,000
to $225,000. The highest price would buy you a real
palace here. I know there are many places where
200K wouldn't buy an outhouse. I guess my main point is that our situation is not all that unusual. I have been
all over this country. If you stay away from the cities and the
enclaves of the rich and famous, our situation could
be duplicated most anywhere, although I concede
water frontage might require some serious searching.

JG
 
JG Don't think about moving to he DC suburbs!
You will have that life altering health event sooner than you think! :D
 
Donner, I hope you love what you are doing because it will be difficult for you to adjust to retirement.

I strongly suggest that you AND your spouse attend several retirement sessions, the one offered by OPM is a starter. Retirement is more than an income decision, it also has life-style and marrage impacts. You and your wife need to consider how you want to spend the rest of your life together and what it takes to get there.

I don't think your budget is the real issue.
 
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