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Old 10-23-2015, 08:43 AM   #21
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I feel at home on both forums...though I probably spend more time on MMM.

We spend right around $2000 monthly, so very much in the MMM mould.

NW is right around 2.5M - which I tend not to mention on MMM because...well, I just don't.
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Old 10-23-2015, 09:24 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Fermion View Post
ER.org sounds about right for you.

If your net worth is sub $50K and you are thinking of early retirement, I would say cheap rv living . com (aka living in a van down by the river)

For net worth around $500K, MMM

For net worth around $1M to $5M, ER.org

For net worth of $5M to $30M Bogleheads

For net worth of $30M+, you shouldn't even be wasting time on a financial forum.
I had never thought about a demarcation, but it does seem to make sense in how each forum meets a certain level of needs.

However, I do find this particular forum a welcoming home-base; entertaining beyond the financial aspects...nice people with good insights regardless of NW and a nice sense of fraternity going on.

This site should be required reading for high schoolers!
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Old 10-23-2015, 11:14 AM   #23
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If you were very near pulling the trigger on retirement and only had $50k, then I would say, yes, you need to be considering a van (used) down by the river (in a low cost of living area too)

I value a pension at the 4% SWR, so a $40k per year cola'd pension is worth $1M in net worth.

But please tell us in another thread if you are retiring on just $50k total with no pension.
My annual expenses (inclusive of tax) is already at $50K. I'd be to think I can live off just $50K for the rest of my existence.

I'm 31 right now so unless I win millions in the lottery (highly unlikely since I don't even buy lottery tickets), there's no chance of me pulling the trigger anytime soon.

That said, since I'm at a relatively young age, I figure I've got compounding on my side and hope to accumulate a cushion once I turn 55 for vacations, hobbies, toys and LTC. I reckon the pension's enough to cover basic living expenses as my "take-home" pension will be even higher than my take-home pay right now.
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Old 10-23-2015, 11:52 AM   #24
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Hi, and welcome to the Board! I'm female but was the sole/primary breadwinner for most of my adult life. (During the first 8 of the 13 years I was married to my first husband, he was gainfully employed.) I had a middle-management job that paid well, took up a lot of my time and included some travel.


The time elapsed between my decision that my BS bucket was full and my last day at my employer was one week. I was 61. That was 18 months ago and life is good.


For me it's been a combination of slowing down some, plus finding new commitments/interests. I bicycle more and spend a bit more time at the gym. The house is much cleaner. (Current DH, who is 15 years older, was great at keeping the house and cars maintained and making great dinners, but a somewhat negligent housekeeper.) I'm learning Icelandic because DH and I were there this year and loved it so much we want to go back. Yesterday I worked in the church vegetable garden and tomorrow I'll be there sewing up dresses for girls in Haiti. If you belong to a religious organization they'll find LOTS for you to do! Oh, yeah- I'm overhauling their Web site, too.


So that's my list (in part). It's some structure, because I need it, but a lot less structure than employment. Think about what you do in your spare time and what you'd like to learn or do more. Everyone has his/her own list!
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Old 10-23-2015, 12:08 PM   #25
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I am just happy I don't have to make my own toilet paper on this site or experience a "Face Punch"!!
The thing that strikes me on the MMM forum is a lot of the savings seem pennywise and pound foolish. I like being frugal, but to me that means getting on an unsold theater ticket list and getting front row seats at plays for free, not sitting home darning socks.

Last night I went shopping at a local outlet grocery store and spent around $100 and saved around $100 for an hour of my time. If I rode my bike to a closer to my house, bikeable grocery store instead I would save maybe $1 in gas and lose the $100 savings I could get by driving further and being able to load up the trunk with bargains.

What I don't usually see there is consideration on the ROI on their time. Yogurt is $1.50 for a big tub at at my local Grocery Outlet. If I made my own yogurt I'd still have to buy ingredients and pay for electricity, so what would I make per hour of my time after subtracting our ingredient and energy costs? Fifty cents? It is fine to do some DIY things as hobbies, but I don't see many of the ideas on those forums as a way to get rich or retire early, when instead of making yogurt one could be taking MOOC or Lynda.com classes and learning $100 an hour tech skills.
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Old 10-23-2015, 09:40 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Fermion View Post
ER.org sounds about right for you.

If your net worth is sub $50K and you are thinking of early retirement, I would say cheap rv living . com (aka living in a van down by the river)

For net worth around $500K, MMM

For net worth around $1M to $5M, ER.org

For net worth of $5M to $30M Bogleheads

For net worth of $30M+, you shouldn't even be wasting time on a financial forum.
I don't know about the cutoffs. Certainly BHs is quite different than here but their fairly exhaustive anonymous survey doesn't have many people with NW above 5M.
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Old 10-23-2015, 11:09 PM   #27
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I'm reasinably similar. About 3.7 ish in liquid assets, about 4.3-4.4 depending on zillow home value and the market gyrations . Still full time employed and like my job but want to do other stuff.

2 kids, 1 and 3. Annual expenses around 90-100k after tax.

Big cost... House... Live in socal so mortgage and tax is 4250 and that's pretty "reasonable." If you consider cali think high housing costs and high taxes. I pay around 10%+ income and then all the other stuff on top.

You have great weather (if you live in the expensive part) but honestly I'm in cali because of work.

My plan is to semi retire next year by first taking 3+ months completely off and see how I feel. If I go nuts I may go back to work . If I love it I may extend it indefinitely. Most likely I'll go back part time unless they say no in which case... That's ok.

I want to spend more time with my young kids but if I didn't have any I'd probably just tinker endlessly. I was originally a programmer and I still love just making stuff for fun. I also have a renewed interest in physical making... For little purpose other than enjoyment.

Will that be satisfying? I don't know. But that's how I'm going to try .

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Old 10-23-2015, 11:31 PM   #28
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I don't know about the cutoffs [between MMM, here, and bogleheads]. Certainly BHs is quite different than here but their fairly exhaustive anonymous survey doesn't have many people with NW above 5M.
I think there is a grain of truth to Fermion's ranking hierarchy, if not the exact demarcations--but there are a lot of people on here who post at two, even three, of the sites under the same or different usernames (if not, there are some scary doppelgangers out there!)....

Just different focus and that focus arguably breaks out into a hierarchy, I suppose. If anything, I would guess that, on a venn diagram, the users of this site and BH would be close to coterminous on an "asset" basis, with a bit of overlap with the generally younger folks at MMM.
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Old 10-24-2015, 12:17 AM   #29
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Dawgman, You might check out www.jlcollinsnh.com. Jim does not ride a bike.


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Old 10-26-2015, 12:40 PM   #30
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You will know when it's time to go

We have similar net worth, I don't consider 200,000 frugal and I live in NYC. I retired at 46 7 years ago with 103,000 pension. I'm the sole income earner and I spend less than 60,000 a year. The house is paid for so its just taxes and upkeep. All my children are out of the house and married, so it's just gifts for child expenses. I just told the bride I was done I can't (did not want) to do the rat race any more. I was stuck on a bridge in bumper to bumper traffic horns honking and thinking I have more than I need in 2 lifetimes time to relax. She was all for it. I do some housework and I'm sort of her shadow now. my only regret is I didn't do it 5 years earlier. I hope I answered your question, by the way I did put down the sword, it's great being a retired warrior, just keep the sword handy, it will always be your job to provide and to protect.
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Old 10-26-2015, 05:22 PM   #31
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Spent some time on MMM after seeing Fermion's breakdown, since I've always felt a little out of place here (e.g., I have less net worth than most and am more inclined to simple living).

MMM is a good forum, but it has a high level of traffic I find hard to keep up with. I like the pace here better, and the substance to the posts. Also, MMM seems to have a lot of people in their 30's or so, aspiring to financial independence, which is great, but at 54, I prefer an older crowd.

I will probably continue to skim both of them, but I think I prefer the atmosphere and posting style at ER a bit more.
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Old 10-26-2015, 05:34 PM   #32
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I love MMM idea of riding bike everywhere. It is healthy active lifestyle.

His location in CO is also great. Those 2 things stick in my head from his site
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Old 10-26-2015, 05:41 PM   #33
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Good stuff! A $100k pension sounds like a good safety net. Unfortunately, all of my retirement income will come from my investments which makes the avoidance of the OMY syndrome a challenge sometimes, particularly when the markets are down/flat. I'm not suggesting $200k/yr in FIRE is "frugal" by any means, I just know what from my current experience/travel/other plans, $200k feels good to me. I think there is a reality many of us don't take into account I am purposely trying to factor into my FIRE. Statistically speaking, aside from major health costs, once many of us (not all), hit a certain age say 70, 75, 80, our ability/desire to do many things we might be more able to do in our 50's (in my case) begins to subside and not cost as much thereby reducing our living expense needs. So my twist on running my SWR will be higher in the earlier yrs, but conservatively will start to drop (probably significantly) by 80 or so. I hope I'm a Sprite 80 yr old like my motherinlaw, but if I am, I will probably be ok tapping my principle at that point. Some of us want to leave a chunk of cash for our kids when we croak... not me. I want to spend my $$ with my kids/grand kids (hopefully one day) and create experiences. In the meantime, I want to give my kids a "tool kit" to do do life with "balance"... Financially, relationally, business, fun, hobbies, etc. I think you appreciate your success in life when you make it yourself. Just 1 mans opinion.
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Old 10-26-2015, 05:45 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by ER Eddie View Post
Spent some time on MMM after seeing Fermion's breakdown, since I've always felt a little out of place here (e.g., I have less net worth than most and am more inclined to simple living).

MMM is a good forum, but it has a high level of traffic I find hard to keep up with. I like the pace here better, and the substance to the posts. Also, MMM seems to have a lot of people in their 30's or so, aspiring to financial independence, which is great, but at 54, I prefer an older crowd.

I will probably continue to skim both of them, but I think I prefer the atmosphere and posting style at ER a bit more.
Don't feel out of place here! The scales were just tongue in cheek and very arbitrary. We have very much toward the low end of the scale I posted for ER.org but it is more by choice. We chose life over money. We could easily have $5 million at age 58 because we were saving $140,000 a year out of our income when we retired this year at 45.

MMM is a bit wack. They had a many page thread on if a crock pot is a good investment and worth the money. How much are those things, $10? I think we got like four as wedding gifts.
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Old 10-26-2015, 05:49 PM   #35
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Don't feel out of place here! The scales were just tongue in cheek and very arbitrary. We have very much toward the low end of the scale I posted for ER.org but it is more by choice. We chose life over money. We could easily have $5 million at age 58 because we were saving $140,000 a year out of our income when we retired this year at 45.

MMM is a bit wack. They had a many page thread on if a crock pot is a good investment and worth the money. How much are those things, $10? I think we got like four as wedding gifts.
I agree... Crock pots make great wedding gifts!
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Old 10-26-2015, 05:54 PM   #36
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I know the scale is tongue in cheek but there's definitely some truth to it! I couldn't stand MMM, just not my type of folks there. Personally I'm shooting for $1.2M-1.4M with a paid for house when I'll be ready to call it quits but that's considered scraping the bottom on ER and nevermind the fact that I'm not even at the half way point yet with only about a 8yr horizon.
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Old 10-26-2015, 07:05 PM   #37
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I echo daylatedollarshorts feelings, I can pinch a penny when I want to but I just like having a nice truck and don't wish to feel bad about paying 200$ a month for cable, I enjoy it, worked for it and can afford it. I also pay a ridiculous amont of money on food and don't feel a bit bad about it. So while I look at several forums this is still my home even though I don't post much
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Old 10-26-2015, 07:24 PM   #38
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Don't feel out of place here! The scales were just tongue in cheek and very arbitrary. We have very much toward the low end of the scale I posted for ER.org but it is more by choice. We chose life over money. We could easily have $5 million at age 58 because we were saving $140,000 a year out of our income when we retired this year at 45.

MMM is a bit wack. They had a many page thread on if a crock pot is a good investment and worth the money. How much are those things, $10? I think we got like four as wedding gifts.
Thanks, I appreciate you saying "don't feel out of place" -- although telling me in you could easily have $5 million at 58 sort of reinforces what I was saying, but anyhow ...

I agree that MMM gets carried away with the frugality. I think both forums are overly focused on money, actually, but in different ways. At ER, we obsess about investment portfolios and return rates. At MMM, they obsess about penny pinching.

To me, financial independence means being free of a concern about money, being free from having to think/focus so much about earning/saving money -- in order that you can focus on things that matter. If all you do, pre- and post-retirement, is just obsess about money... what's the point? You're still in the same trap, just a different version. At least that's how I see it.
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Old 10-26-2015, 07:49 PM   #39
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Thanks, I appreciate you saying "don't feel out of place" -- although telling me in you could easily have $5 million at 58 sort of reinforces what I was saying, but anyhow ...
I meant could have had, not could have. No way will we get to $5 million now that we have stopped w*rk.
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Old 10-26-2015, 08:06 PM   #40
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Thanks, I appreciate you saying "don't feel out of place" -- although telling me in you could easily have $5 million at 58 sort of reinforces what I was saying, but anyhow ...

I agree that MMM gets carried away with the frugality. I think both forums are overly focused on money, actually, but in different ways. At ER, we obsess about investment portfolios and return rates. At MMM, they obsess about penny pinching.
To me, financial independence means being free of a concern about money, being free from having to think/focus so much about earning/saving money -- in order that you can focus on things that matter. If all you do, pre- and post-retirement, is just obsess about money... what's the point? You're still in the same trap, just a different version. At least that's how I see it.[/QUOTE]
I am obviously new here as well and agree with the premise that we should focus on what matters in FIRE, but as an ER site, I think the focus is on what "machine" you can build to support the things we all personally find important as well as getting ideas/sharing experiences as to how FIRE folks are doing life. It's hard to support what matters without having a financial model in place to make it work. That being said, I sure hope I don't spend 6 hours a day steering at my portfolio just measuring my daily gain (loss).
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