Adrian Peterson & disciplining children

[Car-Guy]

Growing up in the 50s and 60s, I don't think I knew many "boys" that didn't get spanked by their parents at times (including me). As they got older (junior and senior high school age) the job of spanking seemed to switch from the parents to the teachers. I know the schools I attended in Houston "the use of a paddle" was swift and not uncommon for the boys. (never for the girls)

I never spanked my child so it's not something that is necessarily automatically passed down.

 

[easysurfer]

I was spanked on occasion. But I think discussion about the Peterson situation overlooks the most important issue. One can debate whether physical discipline of a child is appropriate.
But, m'gosh Peterson used a switch on a 4 YEAR OLD! Absolutely no justification for that. Period.

I'm not sure which I'm more shocked about. What was done the 4 year old or that there isn't a federal law against that?

Then just watching the news shows that there are 19 states that still allow corporeal punishment (Texas being one of them). It will be a matter of the courts to decide whether it was corporeal punishment or abuse.

I remember watching old Andy Griffith shows, and at times when Opie did something wrong, Andy would threaten to give him a whipping and there's mention of a "switch" on The Waltons. Of course, things have changed since then. Or have they?

 

[Mulligan]

Growing up in the 50s and 60s, I don't think I knew many "boys" that didn't get spanked by their parents at times (including me). As they got older (junior and senior high school age) the job of spanking seemed to switch from the parents to the teachers. I know the schools I attended in Houston "the use of a paddle" was swift and not uncommon for the boys. (never for the girls)

I never spanked my child so it's not something that is necessarily automatically passed down.

The use of school paddling is dying out, even where it technically is still legal on the books. Though a lot of it is from not wanting to get caught up in the potential problems that it could entail, including lawsuits and DFS investigations.... A nearby high school had an interesting time honored discipline tradition (it's been 10 years so I do not know if it is allowed anymore) where if you skipped detention you went to the office the next morning and got your 3 swats. You didn't even have to hunt them down, they would just go. It prevented a lot of escalating problems as it was then done and over with.


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[Car-Guy]

The use of school paddling is dying out, even where it technically is still legal on the books. Though a lot of it is from not wanting to get caught up in the potential problems that it could entail, including lawsuits and DFS investigations.... A nearby high school had an interesting time honored discipline tradition (it's been 10 years so I do not know if it is allowed anymore) where if you skipped detention you went to the office the next morning and got your 3 swats. You didn't even have to hunt them down, they would just go. It prevented a lot of escalating problems as it was then done and over with.


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If I recall, in my school, there was a max limit of 5 swats per "incident" although I knew a few guys who had more than one incident in a day. In those days, they even gave swats to students on the football teams if their grades fell below a C.

 

[Mulligan]

If I recall, in my school, there was a max limit of 5 swats per "incident" although I knew a few guys who had more than one incident in a day. In those days, they even gave swats to students on the football teams if their grades fell below a C.

Three swings was our limit. I remember the first time we had a contestant lined up. I asked principal to administer it, as I had never been at a school that had done it and had no experience with a paddle. It appeared the swings were kinda wimpy, so I had him hit me once at same speed so I would know what it felt like. A very valuable lesson as you do not have to swing it that hard to send a message. I probably would have swung for the fences Dave Kingman style and landed in jail.


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[sengsational]

There was a small paddle that said "be an angel" hanging in our kitchen when I was a kid. It was monogrammed with my sisters name. It may have come off the hook a couple of times, but I don't recall it ever being used. Certainly not used with enough force to even redden the skin, or I'd remember that!

I never hit my kids, but did yell sometimes, and felt horrible after. All about the frustration as a parent...absolutely.

 

[Sue J]

My parents spanked us with an open hand on the buttocks - over clothing, never bare. I remember it stinging but I was never injured, just embarrassed and angry.

My brother got much worse and much more than my sister and I because my Dad went through a period of trying to make him into a "normal" young man and my brother was not ever going to be what my father wanted. There was never a belt, spoon or stick.

DH is the oldest of 5 kids and he says his Mom used a hairbrush on them when she really lost her temper. They would cry and wail in fake pain (she's a real softy) and then laugh when she left the room. Finally the hairbrush broke and she gave up on using weapons.

DH and I decided against spanking. We found that ignoring bad behavior and acknowledging good behavior worked pretty well. My older son's worse punishment EVER was we took away his LEGO for a week. He is 30 now and will still talk about how awful that was!

Something is very wrong with a MAN who thinks this is the way to discipline a 4 year old. This is not discipline, it's brutality.

 

[aja8888]

Twice I remember my father seriously punishing me. Somehow I made it to my teenage years before I got wild!

I got caught with another kid robbing a bakery truck at night and when the cops called my father, he told them to tell me I'd be better off in jail than coming home right now. When I got home (no charges) and in his custody, I was sent to the basement for a "talk".

The second time was when I got caught lying to him. That cost me 30 days indoors after school in my room with no radio to listen to Yankee games. That was like being in prison for a 16 year old Yankee fan.

He never laid a hand on me but I was sure in fear of him. We were never really close until I was out on my own and successful. My mother had my two sisters to worry about back then so she had her hands full.

We have been stern with our daughters, but never hit or beat them.

 

[Rustic23]

Four boys one girl in our family. All the boys were spanked. I think I was a little more that the others, I was the youngest boy and tended to be at the end of the line. Sister was never spanked.

I would say that all four boys turned out OK. Sister not so much. In school corporal punishment was the norm especially in High School. Over all I think there was better discipline in schools, and a better learning environment. I received several 'swats' in HS, well deserved, and I honestly think I prefered that to a not home.

 

[LOL!]

My folks would definitely be in jail nowadays for child abuse. My mom left an apology letter to read after her death. I almost didn't go to my dad's funeral.

I have never hit my children and I have never had to. There are other ways to get them to behave without resorting to violence. I wonder if they even know that some parents beat their kids.

 

[tmm99]

My mom says she used to spank me and my brother, but I don't remember ever being spanked, so this must have happened when we were very small. And I am OK with that. It makes absolutely no sense to me to spank kids who are old enough to be able to speak and understand concepts of good and bad. Spanking kids old enough is like bullying in my opinion. It is abuse of power.




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[tmm99]

Oh by the way, I cannot count how many times I got swatted by my elementary school teacher (female) in my second grade and there was another teacher (male) who got reported (several times) for hurting one boy in the fourth grade. This was in Japan though. Being in elementary/junior high school there in those days, I imagine, was sort of like being in the military.


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[Rustic23]

Let's be real here. There is a difference between a spanking and a beating. The problem, IMHO, with this and other discussions is that people trying to criminalize this zero in on the beating and then want to outlaw the spanking. We have mentioned the 'Greatest Generation' here and in the news often. I dare say that 99% of that generation were spanked, some with a switch, some with a belt, and some with hands. I can't imagine them turning out much better. Likewise there are folks on this board that believe their parents went overboard, but appear to have made it to adult life successfully.

At one point I told my son I would not spank him. His school performance, and other activities proceed to degrade over a two year period. We changed the policy, one spanking later, and his attitude and actions changed, day and night. On the other hand, we never spanked our daughter. Did not have to. I could look at her with a harsh look and it was as effective as a spanking. Two different children, two different forms of discipline. Parents should be free of government and neighbors choosing the form of discipline that works for their children. You may not like it, and it may not work for your family, but, if the line between beating and spanking has not been crossed, I say the government has no business in it.

 

[ziggy29]

Parents should be free of government and neighbors choosing the form of discipline that works for their children. You may not like it, and it may not work for your family, but, if the line between beating and spanking has not been crossed, I say the government has no business in it.

Maybe. But I dare say that line has moved considerably in the last few decades. What would have been widely accepted as "discipline" 50-60 years ago is often widely condemned as abuse today.

 

[Rustic23]

Ziggy, no question! But, it does not make it right or correct. There have been lots of government encroachment into a parents authority that, IMHO, is unjustified.

 

[Mulligan]

Let's be real here. There is a difference between a spanking and a beating. The problem, IMHO, with this and other discussions is that people trying to criminalize this zero in on the beating and then want to outlaw the spanking. We have mentioned the 'Greatest Generation' here and in the news often. I dare say that 99% of that generation were spanked, some with a switch, some with a belt, and some with hands. I can't imagine them turning out much better. Likewise there are folks on this board that believe their parents went overboard, but appear to have made it to adult life successfully.

At one point I told my son I would not spank him. His school performance, and other activities proceed to degrade over a two year period. We changed the policy, one spanking later, and his attitude and actions changed, day and night. On the other hand, we never spanked our daughter. Did not have to. I could look at her with a harsh look and it was as effective as a spanking. Two different children, two different forms of discipline. Parents should be free of government and neighbors choosing the form of discipline that works for their children. You may not like it, and it may not work for your family, but, if the line between beating and spanking has not been crossed, I say the government has no business in it.

That is part of the "art" of discipline as one thing doesn't work the same on different children. Of course many here may have had well behaved children and would be in horror of administering a spanking. Why do it if it isn't needed? But I remember at school, as I got the system down, a few of the ornery ones wanted spankings, and I wouldn't do it. One kid, I quickly realized hitting his rear was like smacking a feather unto a brick, so I got his attention a different way to get him to "toe the line". Another kid smugly misbehaved knowing his mother wouldn't allow a paddling. Well after the third time to the office he thought wrong and I finally got her permission, and let's just say he was never in the office the rest of the year!
Beatings and spankings are not the same, and spankings are not the first line of defense in my personal beliefs. But, I remember my youth, and I was the type that respected the belt. Any less of a threat was a signal of weakness for me to exploit. The belt brought me back to reality... And I don't remember any welts lasting long enough for DFS to take a picture, but it hurt enough to remember I wasn't the boss!


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[growing_older]

if the line between beating and spanking has not been crossed, I say the government has no business in it.

Well, that's a big part of the problem with Adrian Peterson's case. He believed he did not cross that line and that covering a 4 year old with welts/cuts on back, legs, scrotum, hands, etc was just discipline and not a "beating over the line" so was justified in doing so. He was open about discussing that that is how he disciplines his other kids as well and how he was raised, although recently it appears his lawyer has convinced him to change that narrative. Does the government still have no business in it. Clearly the child's mother doesn't agree.

 

[Tree-dweller]

That said, a switch seems a bit much to me, particularly to put bruises on a 4 year old! Too much IMO - but I think it is important to let the investigation and justice system do their part rather than rush to judgement without the whole story.

Agreed. AP has been flayed in the court of public opinion (especially local sports talk radio). But I have little sympathy for him. A four year old child making an infrequent visit to his seldom-seen biological father deserves nothing but love during that visit.

 

[jollystomper]

We were spanked, always on the butt and no where else, but never for a mistake or for something we came clean on. If were were it was for lying or being directly disobedient. I don't remember any spankings before the age of 7 or 8, and none after the age of 13 or 14. When were were spanked, our parents made sure we knew what it was for, and afterwards would do something to show that they loved us.

My siblings and I didn't like getting spanked, but looked back at it without resentment. I know we all spanked our kids (in the same way) much less and even more gently than our parents did. , My attitude was that my parents had so little and were sacrificing for us, so discipline was not unexpected. We were able to provide for our kids much better and hopefully they would see that and be more appreciative than we were. As adults our kids actually told us they were surprised they didn't get spanked more often.

My difference with AP is the age (4), the wounds, and - though this is not a popular view these days - being an absentee father... if you are going to have a child and not be with the mother and raise the kid together, you are not going to be around enough to really discern if or when such discipline is needed.

 

[pb4uski]

Agreed. AP has been flayed in the court of public opinion (especially local sports talk radio). But I have little sympathy for him. A four year old child making an infrequent visit to his seldom-seen biological father deserves nothing but love during that visit.

I agree. As I have learned more about what happened it is appalling.

On a broader level, how does society and the NFL balance "innocent until proven guilty" with swift justice. Should a player get suspended/terminated when allegations are made, when and arrest is made, when charges are filed, when a court decision is rendered or when appeals are exhausted? I'm concerned that at some point a player will get railroaded and his reputation ruined as a result of allegation that ultimately prove to be false. OTOH, the justice system is so slow that I'm not sure it makes sense to wait it out and allow a bad guy to keep playing but do we really want trial by public opinion or by the NFL?

 

[jollystomper]

On a broader level, how does society and the NFL balance "innocent until proven guilty" with swift justice. Should a player get suspended/terminated when allegations are made, when and arrest is made, when charges are filed, when a court decision is rendered or when appeals are exhausted? I'm concerned that at some point a player will get railroaded and his reputation ruined as a result of allegation that ultimately prove to be false. OTOH, the justice system is so slow that I'm not sure it makes sense to wait it out and allow a bad guy to keep playing but do we really want trial by public opinion or by the NFL?

Think of it in terms of your employer (or former employer). A company does not have to follow the "innocent until proven guilty" stance. They can terminate an employee at will. Even in the case of unions, they can be be "moral" clauses that can be written into employment contracts that allow termination for what a company may deem "moral" issues.

In the case of the NFL, they look at it from that perspective as well as a "how much damage/distraction will this do to our 'brand'". Not saying it is right. But the NFL is most concerned about making money, and for anything potentially detrimental to that, or threatening their existing money stream,s they are going to take action.

 

[pb4uski]

I wasn't saying the NFL doesn't have the right to do what it is/has done, that will be determined by arbitration of union grievances and or litigation. I'm just wondering where they should draw the line. In an employment situation, how long do you stand behind an employee and when do you cut them loose? While damage to the brand is an important factor another is standing behind and employee who is falsely accused.

 

[jollystomper]

I wasn't saying the NFL doesn't have the right to do what it is/has done, that will be determined by arbitration of union grievances and or litigation. I'm just wondering where they should draw the line. In an employment situation, how long do you stand behind an employee and when do you cut them loose? While damage to the brand is an important factor another is standing behind and employee who is falsely accused.

For the NFL, damage to the brand trumps standing behind employees. These are time times we are in. They error on the side of supporting the brand ahead of the employee.

The NFL doesn't just look at its players as football players, they look at them as representing the game. And the game comes first.

As a contrast, look at how long the NFL dragged its feet dealing with concussions... and how little in proportion they spend on the health care of former players... that gives you an idea of their priorities.

 

[rodi]

I was spanked, with a belt. It left welts. I swore I wouldn't spank... but in reality, I have spanked when other options were exhausted... but bare handed, and after a firm discussion.

A friend of my son told a teacher he was beaten by his parents. Teacher was obligated to report by law. CPS interviewed the kid and the parents. The "standard" is that if it leaves a mark, it's crossing a line. In this case it was determined not to be abuse. The mom was completely freaked out to have a social worker interviewing her, her husband, and her child... all separately... as if they were criminals. She's also freaked out that it's probably permanently on the records at school.

I agree with Mulligan that different kids react to different forms of discipline. One of my sons will correct his behavior with the slightest sign of disapproval. The other is much more oppositional and pushes it. There were points where taking away privileges, extensive discussions, being set in the naughty spot, failed. He continued destructive behavior. A spanking seemed to snap him out of that. It's rare, but it was part of our arsenal.

I agree with the OP about the following
- Our house is not a democracy.
- I am not trying to be my kids friend... I am their parent.

However - I encourage my kids to voice their opinion. We have dinner every night as a family and we discuss a broad range of subjects. The kids are encourage to engage in the topics (politics, religion, current events) but to have facts to back their opinions. They are becoming excellent critical thinkers because we challenge them (and conversely, they challenge our preconceived notions.) They are allowed to disagree with us - but not dogmatically... they have to have rational reasons.

 

[Mulligan]

I agree with you Rodi. Unfortunately some kids need a power play put on them. I only had one kid, a girl, and she was kind of nerdy bless her heart, so she got one weak hand spanking ever and that was all she ever needed. I probably got 3/4 a year during the tween years and deserved everyone. I still will not argue with my Dad today as respect from learning from my smart mouth. And yes, we get along great. Unfortunately the phrases "the quickest way to a child's brain is through their rear", "fear is the beginning of respect" and "the board of education" were not coined for no reason. Like you said, it is the preferably the last line of discipline.


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