After college, why sign up for the military?

[Bigritchie]

When I was at Monterey at the height of the Evil Empire portion of the Cold War, the Defense Language Institute students used to wear t-shirts proclaiming in big letters on the front "We're learning Russian..." and on the back in even bigger letters "... so you don't have to!"

Having said that, the U.S. military is one of the world's larger [-]thoughtless heartless soul-sucking money-wasting[/-] bureaucracies. Look at the paperwork required to obtain a military contract, and see how long your small business would survive with the military's "pay within 30 days unless we need 90 days but maybe longer sometimes".

Wal-Mart and Microsoft may be evil personified, but they don't get to use near as much fuel & ordnance. The Hawaiian island of Kaho'olawe was bombed literally to death for five decades and $500M later there's still no guarantee that all the ordnance has been found/removed. Plenty of Hawaiian religious & archeological sites have been trampled & burned in the name of combat training and many communities have had their water supplies poisoned and their land contaminated. (Pearl Harbor land is so saturated with 90 years of diesel fuel spills that after every heavy rain the harbor shines with the oily runoff.) Farmers & ranchers have lost livestock to military [-]"oopsies"[/-] accidental weapons releases. Military exercises & maneuvers cause noise pollution, damage the roads & land, and inconvenience the communities that have grown up in the area.

Look at all the veterans & families who've suffered from military medical malpractice, pay problems, arbitrary enforcement of administrative requirements, and fickle civil-service changes. Then there's the whole fumbling dysfunctional military-media relationship.

I'm sure there are dozens of other issues I've overlooked that, collected into a crowd and handled with bad publicity, could cause a lot of people to become vociferously anti-military.

Hey Nords, that reminds me, I have watched a couple of things in the news about depleted Uranium poisoning on that island being pretty bad, have you read or heard anything locally about that?

Kinda made me sad hearing that was happening to paradise :-(

 

[brewer12345]

Hey Nords, that reminds me, I have watched a couple of things in the news about depleted Uranium poisoning on that island being pretty bad, have you read or heard anything locally about that?

Kinda made me sad hearing that was happening to paradise :-(

Ask any Viequense how they feel about the US Navy on that score.

 

[Nords]

Hey Nords, that reminds me, I have watched a couple of things in the news about depleted Uranium poisoning on that island being pretty bad, have you read or heard anything locally about that?

Better than that, a shipmate of my spouse's is an EOD Reserve officer who's spent quite a few months (and quite a few million of the govt's dollars) on that island. It's paying for a lot of his retirement. A shipmate of mine also camped there one weekend in the late 1990s to help replant.

There's a lot of concern about the medical/human effects of depleted uranium but they're mostly chemical/biological, not radiological. I'm not aware of anyone affected by the Kaho'olawe cleanup but if it was a widespread problem then I'd hope we'd be hearing the scuttlebutt. Let me know if you have a link.

Depleted uranium is a minor distraction. The biggest problem is that the island has lost a lot of topsoil (fires, erosion, wind) and what's left is hardpan & gullies. It's hard to get through it with ground-penetrating radar or electromagnetic loops and after 60+ years it's anyone's guess how deep some of the older stuff is buried or whether it's even detectable. It's not as dangerous as traipsing around the Afghan mountains but there are lots of steep slopes where they couldn't even get up there, let alone do a good search.

Depleted uranium pales in significance to the island's other issues. There's no pier-- landings are via helicopter or by taking a boat to a lee of the surf zone and wading in (with your belongings in heavy trash bags). There's no fresh water on the island so you bring your own or set up distillation & reverse-osmosis rigs. The soil has been stripped bare by feral goats/pigs (long since died out) and erosion, so ironically the only way to plant is to use explosives to blow a hole in the hardpan and break up the soil. When my friend was camping they were overwhelmed by a herd of feral cats, although I have no idea how they feed when the humans aren't around.

OTOH I've been told the fishing is very very good and the surf is unbelievable... in 20-30 years we'll probably be eco-touring there.

 

[bayfritz]

why sign up for the military?

E-9 with 22 years retired 6 months ago.

Ummm Lets see....

- Almost free college, had to pay for books. Received my BS and Masters on government dime. In work on PHD with still no out of pocket expense. (working for DoD agency)

- Other free training. DoD sent me to aquisition/procurement/contracting classes that allowed me to land 6 figure salary the day after I retired.

- My wife and I enjoyed having our 3 boys with absolutely no out of pocket health care expenses. No complaints about healthcare here. Wife actually had to have 2 major surgeries. I think out of pocket expense was $40.

- While retired I pay a whopping $640 dollars a year for healthcare coverage for my entire family.

- Travel. I have been to London three times and Paris twice as well as a host of others. Also been to some not so nice ones. Utilized free space a travel for family to go on vacation.(Keywest and Disney)

- Allowed to use on base commissary and exchange privileges. Much cheaper than out in town for groceries. If you live close to a military base.

- used VA benefits to purchase 1st home. Exact out of pocket expense to move in was $1.

- 30 days paid vacation from the git go, not counting regular holidays.

- oh yeah, decent retirement salary that I don't even touch at age 41, except to buy IRA's for myself and my wife every year.

I could go on.

 

[Nords]

Welcome to the board, Bayfritz.

- oh yeah, decent retirement salary that I don't even touch at age 41, except to buy IRA's for myself and my wife every year.

Ruh-roh... that pension is 1099-R income, not W-2 earned income. But I understand if you're saying that there's enough leftover cash above earned income to fully fund your IRAs.

 

[Average Joe]

There are good reasons to join and good reasons not to. A college degree is required to be considered for commissioning as an officer.

A minority of officers earn their degrees at the service academies. Most officers have civilian educations, some augmented by ROTC, others not. A small minority enlist, earn degrees while on active duty, and get commissioned later. Although I took that latter route, I’m in favor of the military’s continued acceptance of persons who attended college prior to joining. I see why you might object to it. I concede that a college degree may show that its holder has spent years in an atmosphere where the military is despised and disdained, and the US is viewed as a racist, oppressive, imperialist entity. And that the degree itself may prove nothing other than attendance with no actual knowledge or ability gained. And that the classes attended may have often had a strong element of indoctrination into the notion that facts inconsistent with a nice worldview are not really facts and could only be believed by mean and bad people. Nevertheless, some people learn valuable things in college; things of use to the military. And the spirit of independent thought is hard enough to kill that some people graduate from college with their individuality and ability to think for themselves still intact. Some of them come to believe that the US is great country, that the system of limited government and individual rights mandated by the constitution and bill of rights are worth preserving, and that serving in the US military is an honorable, worthwhile, and rewarding way to help preserve them. And it’s good to have the military drawn from a broad cross section of society. Doing otherwise would reinforce caste separatism that can grow out of a civil-military divide and make for bad civil-military relations in a republic whose constitution mandates civil control of the military. Plus lieutenants with no military experience other than 90 days of training can be entertaining.

Waste of talent? Leaving aside the issue of whether or not it’s a waste, whose talent is it? If it belongs to society (what’s that line in the declaration of independence? … life, liberty, and the pursuit of putting one’s talents to use in a way that someone else thinks is most beneficial to society…), what authority decides how to best employ it?

Besides all that, chicks dig military dudes.

 

[Nords]

Besides all that, chicks dig military dudes.

My spouse of 21 years, a Navy Reservist, is laughing too hard right now to explain why she finds this sentiment so funny...

Deserat? Fireup2025? Caroline? J-Lu? Care to step into this one?

 

[Fireup2020]

My spouse of 21 years, a Navy Reservist, is laughing too hard right now to explain why she finds this sentiment so funny...

Deserat? Fireup2025? Caroline? J-Lu? Care to step into this one?

Shaking head and laughing hard enough to rival your DW - or rather, I'm laughing with her!

 

[Gumby]

Besides all that, chicks dig military dudes.

I don't know ... the whole uniform thing never worked out all that well for me. I scored the young wife despite my being in the military, certainly not because of it.

 

[martyb]

Besides all that, chicks dig military dudes.

Yeah...that's what I'm talkin' about! I knew that had to be the reason I was always beatin' 'em off with a stick! It works, even for us lowly enlisted guys, too!

 

[martyb]

Chicks dig a guy in uniform!

 

[HFWR]

Forget all about that macho ****, and learn how to play guitar...

John "Cougar" Mellencamp

 

[samclem]

"I gave my love a cherry that had no stone . . . "

Animal House - guitar smash scene • VideoSift: Online Video *Quality Control

 

[Wags]

Forget all about that macho ****, and learn how to play guitar...

John "Cougar" Mellencamp

Would you prefer country & western, rock, ballads, etc...., etc...?

Playing guitar might be a good idea it might keep one out of trouble.

 

[martyb]

I have a guitar (Martin D-35). I don't know if what I do with it would qualify as playing, though.

 

[HFWR]

Would you prefer country & western, rock, ballads, etc...., etc...?

We like both kinds of music: country AND western...

Playing guitar might be a good idea it might keep one out of trouble.

 

[brewer12345]

A minority of officers earn their degrees at the service academies. Most officers have civilian educations, some augmented by ROTC, others not. A small minority enlist, earn degrees while on active duty, and get commissioned later. Although I took that latter route, I’m in favor of the military’s continued acceptance of persons who attended college prior to joining. I see why you might object to it. I concede that a college degree may show that its holder has spent years in an atmosphere where the military is despised and disdained, and the US is viewed as a racist, oppressive, imperialist entity. And that the degree itself may prove nothing other than attendance with no actual knowledge or ability gained. And that the classes attended may have often had a strong element of indoctrination into the notion that facts inconsistent with a nice worldview are not really facts and could only be believed by mean and bad people. Nevertheless, some people learn valuable things in college; things of use to the military. And the spirit of independent thought is hard enough to kill that some people graduate from college with their individuality and ability to think for themselves still intact. Some of them come to believe that the US is great country, that the system of limited government and individual rights mandated by the constitution and bill of rights are worth preserving, and that serving in the US military is an honorable, worthwhile, and rewarding way to help preserve them. And it’s good to have the military drawn from a broad cross section of society. Doing otherwise would reinforce caste separatism that can grow out of a civil-military divide and make for bad civil-military relations in a republic whose constitution mandates civil control of the military. Plus lieutenants with no military experience other than 90 days of training can be entertaining.

What a laughable diatribe! Did you get that from the NRA or Rethuglican Party talking points? Maybe from "Rush?"

 

[martyb]

I'm in your corner, Joe.

 

[samclem]

What a laughable diatribe! Did you get that from the NRA or Rethuglican Party talking points? Maybe from "Rush?"

No specifics as to the source of discontent, so we are left to assume that the post-er believes one or more of the following:
-- Colleges are doing a good job of teaching independent thought
-- There is a positive disposition toward the military on most college campuses
-- It would be a good idea to draw military officers from a small, isolated section of the American public.
-- Lieutenants are not fun to watch.

Here we go!

 

[lets-retire]

What a laughable diatribe! Did you get that from the NRA or Rethuglican Party talking points? Maybe from "Rush?"

Wow! This is very telling.

Good post joe.

 

[brewer12345]

No specifics as to the source of discontent, so we are left to assume that the post-er believes one or more of the following:
-- Colleges are doing a good job of teaching independent thought
-- There is a positive disposition toward the military on most college campuses
-- It would be a good idea to draw military officers from a small, isolated section of the American public.
-- Lieutenants are not fun to watch.

Ah, it was more the right wing party line about higher education being a bastion of stalinist thought police. I have heard the same nonsense pretty much verbatim from right wing wacko talk radio a number of times.

So you'll pardon me if I chuckle at our, um, over-compensating pro-military poster pal.

 

[Nords]

What a laughable diatribe! Did you get that from the NRA or Rethuglican Party talking points? Maybe from "Rush?"

Ah, it was more the right wing party line about higher education being a bastion of stalinist thought police. I have heard the same nonsense pretty much verbatim from right wing wacko talk radio a number of times.
So you'll pardon me if I chuckle at our, um, over-compensating pro-military poster pal.

Brewer, I think this is a situation where you could lighten up a little. I don't see that Joe is parroting a right-wing subversive point of view but rather expressing his opinion-- which you just dumped all over.

IMO Joe's just pointing out that some colleges have a very anti-military stance yet produce graduates who are still interested in joining the military. I've seen that too. Other graduates haven't developed critical-thinking skills or any other obvious abilities valued by the military, yet the military lets them be officers anyway because they have a degree. I've seen a lot of that.

The military does need to come from a broad cross-section of society. Not just because there's a risk of developing a gulf between military culture and civilian, as happened in 1920s-30s Japan, but because the military needs to recruit from all the demographics they can-- men, women, WASPs, Latinos, African Americans, Muslims, Jews, and... maybe even... Democrats.

He's also right about ensign/lieutenant entertainment, although I think it can be found just as easily among the ones from the ranks and the service academies.

 

[brewer12345]

Brewer, I think this is a situation where you could lighten up a little. I don't see that Joe is parroting a right-wing subversive point of view but rather expressing his opinion-- which you just dumped all over.
.

Um, no, I really was reacting to his parroting of far-right talking points that I sincerely doubt he came up with on his own.

We aren't going to agree and I have said my piece, so I will drop it, assuming others do the same. Wouldn't want to upset the powers that be, especially since we now have a community code.

Is it still OK to chew gum here?

 

[REWahoo]

Is it still OK to chew gum here?

Yes...but no smacking!

 

[Average Joe]

Maybe I laid on the sarcasm and hyperbole in ways reasonable people might find excessive or inappropriate. But the basic points I was illustrating are….. Oh heck with it. I might as well fess up. I was just parroting right wing talking points. “Squawk! Polly want a take cut! Squawk!” I learned everything I know about the world from Rush Limbaugh (well… except the thing about lieutenants). Damn that work schedule that prevents me from tuning in during the day to soak up more wisdom from the master! How’m ah spozed to no wut to think if’n I cain’t listen to Rush? Thank Bill Buckley that we’ve got National Review! Now if only I could find someone to teach me them big words they’s always writin’ in there. Maybe when I RE, I can spend entire days soaking up right wing talking points and parroting them – “Squawk! No legislating from the judiciary! Squawk!”

When I attended a civilian graduate school, what I perceived as anti-military sentiment was probably just my princess-and-the-pea oversensitivity. It could be that people faulted me, not for being in the military, but for being unable to think for myself (which they noticed right away when I expressed ideas that differed from the crowd’s). Or maybe they suffered from envy; after all, many of the chicks couldn’t help but dig a military dude, even if I was unashamed of being a right wing moron. I sometimes felt that what especially irked the few really hardcore bigots - um, I mean caring and enlightened intellectuals from whom I picked up the hate vibes, was that I was happy – and I was very happy! Who wouldn’t be with Uncle Sam paying them to wear civies and study interesting things on a rather laid back schedule?

Later, when I attended a military grad school (NPS), I was among real diversity – Army, Navy (mostly), Air Force, Marines! Plus quite a few foreigners. Of course all were military men (well, mostly men – except profs who were mostly civilians and some of them not men). And naturally being in the military, we all had our ideas issued to us and we’d keep our right wing talking points polished real good - and ready so we could parrot ‘em whenever our profs tried to trick us into thinking about anything outside the box (this is juvenile sarcasm BTW – just thought I’d mention that for the nonnative English speakers and those afflicted with emoticon dependency syndrome). Anyway I suspect the real purpose of NPS is to make us have children. I, and it seemed that nearly every one of my married classmates, had their first (except the ones having their second) child at NPS. (Remember La Mesa housing Nords? We called it fertility hill) Everyone says it has something to do with mid career professional who are suddenly not away from home all the time. But maybe that’s just what they want us to think, huh? Maybe there’s a right wing conspiracy behind this somewhere – some kind of genetic project a la “Boys from Brazil” except having a conservative instead of a national socialis... uh oh - did I just fulfill Godwin’s law? $*#@! Can I be exonerated since it’s just an oblique reference in an analogy entirely tangential to the subject at hand?

Anyway I’ve attended both civilian and military grad schools. It’s hard to say which I like better - both had pros and cons and the pros far outweighed the cons in both cases. But it was obvious that a not insignificant number (among students and faculty) had “issues” with the military and with the US as compared to other states in general. Of course, I was just going to a lefty dominated civilian graduate school to learn about the opposition – you know, so I learn to better cook up the right wing conspiracies and cover-ups that we nefarious and clever (but stupid – don’t forget that we’re really stupid) right wingers are always using to pull the wool over the public’s eyes. We’re everywhere you know. Just look at some of the posts touching on politics in forums like this. You see those posts that look like unhinged reactionary leftism? I figure they must be right wingers trying to make the left look irrational and angry. They pose as lefties and stay just this side of sanity (with the odd jump to the other side every now and then) so as not to let on that what they are actually doing is parodying the left to highlight its faults and excesses.