Allowing Nations To Form Democracies In Their Own Style

[Eagle43]

Unless the Democrats win one or both houses of Congress, impeachment is out of the question.  You do notice that Hillary and Kerry are not proclaiming the need to impeach. Could this be because they intend to run in 2008.  

How about an October surprise?  I think if Osama were captured or killed in October that it might make the Democrats look foolish (again).  Or the military could initiate a scorched earth policy against the Iraqi terrorists.  Or Zaracawi could be bagged.  Events will determine whether or not the Republicans control Congress after November, and guess what, they (read Karl Rove) get to initiate a lot of events.  All of the current polls are meaningless with the exception of rallying the liberal faithful and raising campaign funds.  With an upturn in the polls, GWB will rally the Republicans who are currently deserting and delay his lame duck status.  He also needs a presidential successor.  Stay tuned.

 

[sgeeeee]

. . .

 

[sgeeeee]

Unfortunately, if you dont shootspray the next 5 guys in succession with bird pellets, you get pretty much the same thing.

that's not true at all.  Although polls show that GWB has lost credibility by a large majority of voters, they also show that 2/3 of the Republican voters still support and believe him.  This still gives him some power.  Cheny, on the other hand is pretty much considered a disaster even by knee-jerk Republicans.  He would be powerless.

I also have to disagre with your analysis about whether we had to go to war in Iraq.  People forget this, but no one cared about Iraq when this started.  No one thought they were a threat.  Americans had forgotten Iraq and so had everyone else.  The polls showed this over and over again.  This administration pounded a drumbeat about the dangers of Saddam and Iraq for over a year before they could get any traction from even loyal Republicans.  They tried a whole range of excuses -- all of which have been shown to be untrue.  They never did get any traction from the rest of the world (except Tony Blair).  There was no danger from Iraq before 9/11.  We've created the danger by making the country a magnet for terrorists from all over the mid-east.  

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

You should re-read my post. I never said saddam and iraq were a threat.

 

[brewer12345]

Unless the Democrats win one or both houses of Congress, impeachment is out of the question.  You do notice that Hillary and Kerry are not proclaiming the need to impeach. Could this be because they intend to run in 2008.  

How about an October surprise?  I think if Osama were captured or killed in October that it might make the Democrats look foolish (again).  Or the military could initiate a scorched earth policy against the Iraqi terrorists.  Or Zaracawi could be bagged.  Events will determine whether or not the Republicans control Congress after November, and guess what, they (read Karl Rove) get to initiate a lot of events.  All of the current polls are meaningless with the exception of rallying the liberal faithful and raising campaign funds.  With an upturn in the polls, GWB will rally the Republicans who are currently deserting and delay his lame duck status.  He also needs a presidential successor.  Stay tuned.

Wow, can I have a hit off whatever bong you are smoking from?

 

[Danny]

US Democracy has always been evolving - its taken us 200+ years to get to this imperfect democracy we now have. We have gone through so much ugliness to get here.... it is amazing this dynamic institution that Jefferson, Adams, Franklin,etc came up with, yet we have that painful history....

In the well meaning imposing of democracy in areas of the world that don't have a tradition of democracy and the bill of rights - where the dynamic is complicated by unique culture, religion, the suppression of women, etc. - we are seeing a version of democracy that isn't in the present American image.

We shouldn't expect it to catch up with our version anytime soon.
We could see democracy spread further in the world and be dealing with democratic counties that behave in ways that we abhor.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

We shouldn't expect it to catch up with our version anytime soon.

You say that like its a bad thing...

 

[Danny]

You say that like its a bad thing...

Yeah, even though we are not in the bestest of shape, we could see democracy spread further in the world and be dealing with democratic counties that behave in ways that we abhor.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I wonder if someone will come around at some point, invade the US, and have us change to their new, revised and correct version.

It'd be kinda fun. We could blow stuff up and shoot at them and stuff.

 

[Danny]

I wonder if someone will come around at some point, invade the US, and have us change to their new, revised and correct version.

It'd be kinda fun. We could blow stuff up and shoot at them and stuff.

No.
Unfortunately, we will be spending our treasure, our soldiers trying to control these new born democracys.

 

[Eagle43]

Wow, can I have a hit off whatever bong you are smoking from?

Yeah, right, this coming from the poster who wants a Murtha/Feingold ticket.

If you think either or both of those gents will win the nomination or have a chance to win the presidency any greater than a snowball in hell, then you must have a corner on the bong market.

 

[brewer12345]

Yeah, right, this coming from the poster who wants a Murtha/Feingold ticket.

If you think either or both of those gents will win the nomination or have a chance to win the presidency any greater than a snowball in hell, then you must have a corner on the bong market.

Not to be overly flippant, but do you really think that Feingold or Murtha (or Alfred E. Newman) could possibly do a worse job than the current boobs?

I'm a pacifist, so I have very dim views on the current bunch, personally. As a citizen (lower standard), I would at least like to see competence. Still wating on that count.

Do they have a chance of winning the nomination? I dunno. A lot could happen in two years. Almost impossible to handicap things this far out. I would be willing to say that both Hillary and DeLay would be DOA, though.

 

[HFWR]

Alright, boobs!!

Hopefully, DeLay will be in prison, where he belongs, before the next election cycle.

I think Kinky Friedman should skips Tx, and go straight for the white House!

 

[Eagle43]

Not to be overly flippant, but do you really think that Feingold or Murtha (or Alfred E. Newman) could possibly do a worse job than the current boobs?

I'm a pacifist, so I have very dim views on the current bunch, personally.  As a citizen (lower standard), I would at least like to see competence.  Still wating on that count.

Do they have a chance of winning the nomination?  I dunno.  A lot could happen in two years.  Almost impossible to handicap things this far out.  I would be willing to say that both Hillary and DeLay would be DOA, though.

I am not a pacifist but I do have a dim view of what's happening.  As Colin Powell told him, "you break it, you own it." I believe you do your best NOT to go to war, but when you decide to go, then get it done brutally and quickly.   I heard (on NPR) a Brit talk about supporting us on Iraq.  This guy (can't remember his name) said the Brits thought we were going to install another pro-USA dictator.  All this nonsense about democracy is just eyewash, after the WMDs didn't show up.  That being said, you will note in my original post that I did not say I liked what will happen when ole Karl gets going, but something is going to happen.  Spin is the name of the game.  If Rove doesn't or can't work his magic, then look for GWB to become a very lame duck.  We have some experience with Mr. Rove here in Texas and he believes in winning. Also, if the Republicans lose the Congress, the Democrats might try impeachment.  I say might because they will remember how the Rs took it on the chin by impeaching Bill.  The difference now is that Bill had high ratings so the Senate couldn't vote to convict.  GWB will have a tougher time if impeached.

As to Feingold and Murtha and Hillary, the Dems have better candidates.  All three of the above are losers IMHO.  Since Hillary's got all the money, she's probably going to get the nomination.  Then we'll replay Whitewater, etc. Politics is fun.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

DeLay will be in prison

Maybe he gets put into a cell with Ken Lay?

Ok boys, this is your new cell mate, Mr. Pyita. Mr Pyita, this is mr lay, and mr delay.

 

[laurence]

I do worry that a new offensive on the "war on terror" or a manufactured crisis, like the Iran nuke issue being brought to a boiling point, along with all the gerrymandered districts making incumbents all but appointed for life, will make it very difficult to get any change in Congress. I heard a story on NPR about the time DeLay won the Republican Primary. They were interviewing the constituents in his district. When asked about his legal/ethical troubles, they all replied, "yeah but look at all the <pork> he brought to the district! Highway Such-and-such wouldn't be here, or the one-armed paper hanger museum!". Everybody hates Congress, everybody loves their Congressman.

In fact, in my own district, home of disgraced Randy "Duke" Cunningham, sentenced to 8 years for blatant bribe taking, poster boy for scum, the real race is for the Republican primary, because it's a forgone conclusion it will stay red, despite all of that. In fact, I had three flyers in my mailbox from hopefuls, to a man, do you know who they blamed for all our troubles? Liberals, for undercutting the war effort! Oh, and the bad info on Saddam and Iraq? Caused by budgets for intel and defence being underfunded by above mentioned evil Liberals. Shall I go on? I'm not making this up!

 

[Cool Dood]

I do worry that a new offensive on the "war on terror" or a manufactured crisis, like the Iran nuke issue being brought to a boiling point

umm............

 

[Maximillion]

Laurence, shouldn't that post be in "Does anyone worry etc."

 

[bermondsey]

US Democracy has always been evolving - its taken us 200+ years to get to this imperfect democracy we now have. We have gone through so much ugliness to get here.... it is amazing this dynamic institution that Jefferson, Adams, Franklin,etc came up with, yet we have that painful history....

In the well meaning imposing of democracy in areas of the world that don't have a tradition of democracy and the bill of rights - where the dynamic is complicated by unique culture, religion, the suppression of women, etc. - we are seeing a version of democracy that isn't in the present American image.

We shouldn't expect it to catch up with our version anytime soon.
We could see democracy spread further in the world and be dealing with democratic counties that behave in ways that we abhor.

The big mistake some Western societies make, and mainly so the US, is that their vision or version of democracy is the best thing since sliced bread.

Not so.

For example, some fifty years ago, I so happened to be living in one of the world's greatest democracies. This nation, at the time it had some 350 million souls, had been ruled by the Brits for some 200 plus years but had recently achieved independence.

It was so bloody democratic that in one of their provinces they managed to elect a communist state government.

How ironic!

(This was in the days when communist was a dirty word. Anyone remember Senator McCathy?)

The nation was India and the province was Kerala.

So a word of caution when trying to export one's vision of democracy. It isn't always what the locals want. Or need.

 

[brewer12345]

I am not a pacifist but I do have a dim view of what's happening.  As Colin Powell told him, "you break it, you own it." I believe you do your best NOT to go to war, but when you decide to go, then get it done brutally and quickly.   I heard (on NPR) a Brit talk about supporting us on Iraq.  This guy (can't remember his name) said the Brits thought we were going to install another pro-USA dictator.  All this nonsense about democracy is just eyewash, after the WMDs didn't show up.  That being said, you will note in my original post that I did not say I liked what will happen when ole Karl gets going, but something is going to happen.  Spin is the name of the game.  If Rove doesn't or can't work his magic, then look for GWB to become a very lame duck.  We have some experience with Mr. Rove here in Texas and he believes in winning.  Also, if the Republicans lose the Congress, the Democrats might try impeachment.  I say might because they will remember how the Rs took it on the chin by impeaching Bill.  The difference now is that Bill had high ratings so the Senate couldn't vote to convict.  GWB will have a tougher time if impeached.

Seems like a reasonable summary of what has gone on. I would quibble in the following areas:

- Um, the pResident is a lame duck. He is just going to be taking up space for the next two years and hoping like hell it doesn't end in impeachment.
- Unlike the nonsense with Clinton's impeachment, people might actually care about the stuff Bush could be charged with (lying to congress, manipulating intelligence, spying on ordinary Merkins in apparrent direct conflict with our laws, etc.).
- Rove can try all he likes, but I think the jig is up. Once the R's lose one or both houses, iit will really be game over.