Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

[Art]

Good thing we have Jeb Bush.  Otherwise that bastard would have gotten off scot free.

Screw Jeb Bush and the whole Bush clan. As a card-carrying Clinton-hater, I emailed Jebbie and told him that if it was down to him or Hillary in 08, I'd vote for Hillary- and I meant it.

This is nothing but a transparent political attempt to do damage control with conservatives he pissed off by not using force to save Terri... the same kind of force Clinton used to seize Elian Gonzalez in violation of court orders at the time, btw (libs only mind use of force in violation of court orders when the perceived victim- Michael Schiavo, in this case- is a Democrat.)

As for this right-wing Christian stuff, I am neither Christian, nor religious. Conservative on some issues, not all. But there is NO DOUBT that the liberal media fed the public a steady stream of lies, distortions, and bs poll questions on Schiavo- causing the Republican wimps to falsely believe the public supported Michael Schiavo (and they did, but only based on deliberately worded polls and lies meant to confuse) and so allow this woman to be tortured to death in front of her parednts and siblings who LOVED HER and only wanted to CARE FOR HER, may they burn in hell forever for loving her so much. Amen.

The police investigations were shoddy. Michael's timelines are bullshit. Facts are in dispute. And the fates conspired to kill this girl, who was used a a proxy for pro-euthanasia activists, executive vs. legislative turf war, and Democrat vs. Republican partisan warfare- rather than as it should have been handled- with simple humanity, decency and mercy, for, if nothing else, a grieving, loving mother, father, sister and brother.

But, Frankenstein won. And now he announces his NEW BOOK on his beloved Terri- movie to follow! While he still keeps her ashes in the basement and refuses to tell her family where or when she'll be buried- as required by court order. After melting her wedding ring and depriving her family of a lock of her hair, and the right to be with her as she breathed her last breath. But oh... how he loved Terri! Sure, he refused treatment of her urinary tract infections- but that doesn't mean he didn't lover her... does it?

"He said there was no proof she suffered from an eating disorder such as bulimia, which can disrupt the body chemistry with lethal effect. The main piece of evidence cited for an eating disorder - the low levels of potassium in her blood in 1990 - could have been caused by the emergency treatment she received at the time, Thogmartin said."

"Yet medical examiners could not say for certain what caused her sudden 1990 collapse, long thought to have been brought on by an eating disorder."

"He discounted the possibility that she had overdosed on caffeine from drinking large amounts of tea in an effort to keep her weight down."

"In a letter faxed to Pinellas-Pasco County State Attorney Bernie McCabe, the governor said Michael Schiavo testified in a 1992 medical malpractice trial that he found his wife collapsed at 5 a.m. on Feb. 25, 1990, and he said in a 2003 television interview that he found her about 4:30 a.m. He called 911 at 5:40 a.m."

"Between 40 and 70 minutes elapsed before the call was made, and I am aware of no explanation for the delay," Bush wrote. "In light of this new information, I urge you to take a fresh look at this case without any preconceptions as to the outcome."

"On Wednesday, Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, said his client didn't wait to call for help and has conceded that he confuses dates and times."

Google: Hammesfahr Board-certified neurologist who spent many hours with her- not the 45 min spent by Crandall- Dr. Death- but a good long time. Read his report- he was slimed by the media- but his report has not been credibly refuted.

Then believe whatever you want. I'll do the same.

But I'm all for sticking a fork in Terri's murderer with this review of her collapse- since there's too many unanswered questions. Her girlfriends tell us she told them she was going to leave Michael the night she collapsed (she was at dinner with them that evening). But husbands don't kill their wives, right?

I know, Laurence, her girlfriends are liars, the nurses are liars... just one look at Michael Schiavo shows that he's the only honest person in this case. Just ask the legally blind county probate judge. So, he confuses dates and times. So, he forgets Teri's wishes for years, then conveniently remembers.

As long as the Republicans lose, life is good!

Peace.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Ok, let me try this again...what took 15 years to figure out again?

By the way, i've never voted for anyone remotely liberal, so you can quit calling me one. I'm just not seeing a conspiracy here.

 

[REWahoo]

Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Screw Jeb Bush and the whole Bush clan. As a card-carrying Clinton-hater, I emailed Jebbie and told him that if it was down to him or Hillary in 08, I'd vote for Hillary- and I meant it.

[blah, blah, blah....]

I know, Laurence, her girlfriends are liars, the nurses are liars... just one look at Michael Schiavo shows that he's the only honest person in this case. Just ask the legally blind county probate judge. So, he confuses dates and times. So, he forgets Teri's wishes for years, then conveniently remembers.

As long as the Republicans lose, life is good!

Peace.

Art, lighten up man. You're gonna blow a gasket.

REW

 

[greg]

Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

notth--Just read the back page of Business Week. The Governator wants to have retired judges do the proportioning for political districts in Kalifornia. He wants this on the new ballot initiative. Good job for retired folks, I think. I love sticking my nose in other people's business. It keeps retired folks busy . I think I might know you?

I actually really like the idea of having retired folks (those NOT receiving money from any special interest group) doing things related to governing. But for free. For the right reasons. For the good of the country. If this is possible? Let's volunteer to run California. I'll help--if they give me free Depends.

 

[Art]

Why do you think it took 15 years for the governor and his prosecutor to decide they needed to investigate this uncertain span between her accident and the 911 call, particularly when that was already investigated and the husband already found to have acted in a timely manner, and the attending physician concurring that if the call hadnt been made nearly immediately, that she would have been dead?

I thought I answered this.

Jeb's motivation is pure damage control to repair relations with his conservative base who think he wimped out by not using force to save Terri.

My motivations are to try to get a better investigation done once and for all (although I doubt this will happen) and to piss off Terri's murderer as much as possible.

 

[Art]

Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Art, lighten up man.  You're gonna blow a gasket.

REW

Actually, I feel much better now. Thanks.

 

[moghopper]

Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Let's volunteer to run California. I'll help--if they give me free Depends.

In California, they'll have to be special biodegradeble Depends made from 100% post consumer material.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Well Art, obviously something you feel strongly about, and I'm sorry if you feel like I'm not sympathetic to your feelings. As someone who trusts the government and courts as far as I can throw the collective lot, I cant possibly see any way someone could do away with their wife in this manner and given the scope, breadth and depth of the consideration and examination...that somehow he just got away with it.

The balance of witnesses, jurists, doctors, legislators and public made decisions and provided agreement. While there are always going to be people who look at things differently and wish to believe the minority reports, it looks to me like the right thing was done.

Vindictive after-the-fact lashing out that will have no benefit seems worthless. But its less frightening than regretting the lack of a shootout between the local police and some state or federal cops, with the state or federal agents in defiance of our rules of law. The local police WERE prepared to draw guns and defend the courts decisions.

Any class of people who feel that court decisions they dont agree with should be overridden by the executive or legislative branch, in particular by use of force, need to take a good hard re-read of the constitution.

 

[Art]

Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

But its less frightening than regretting the lack of a shootout between the local police and some state or federal cops, with the state or federal agents in defiance of our rules of law.  The local police WERE prepared to draw guns and defend the courts decisions.

At the very, very end, when Numbnuts County got all policed- and sheriffed-up outside the hospice, it was too late. Before then, Jeb had plenty of time to get her to safety without bloodshed.

The day the federal court denied congress' order to hold a de novo trial, or any time after that, would have been fine. The day the Mark Schiavo defied a congessional subpoena to get her to D.C. to testify via her family, etc,, would have been fine. No bloodshed, guaranteed.

The Constitution is interpreted by the courts, and several of these key court decisions went against Terri by ONE VOTE. It's not like our legal system is a science, although we are expected to treat it's decisions as though it were.

U.S. history is full of Supreme Court, and lower court, decisions that were later overturned- and resulted in horrible pain for innocent people. Read "Men In Black" by Mark Levin.

So while I have no choice but to abide by these laws, I don't always feel the need to shrug my soldiers and say, "oh, well". Nor do I need to re-read the constitution.

In this case, it is so clear that her continued existence would have harmed no one, that her court-sanctioned murder can never be forgiven, nor should it be.

 

[Cut-Throat]

U.S. history is full of Supreme Court, and lower court, decisions that were later overturned- and resulted in horrible pain for innocent people. Read "Men In Black" by Mark Levin.

So while I have no choice but to abide by these laws, I don't always feel the need to shrug my soldiers and say, "oh, well". Nor do I need to re-read the constitution.

In this case, it is so clear that her continued existence would have harmed no one, that her court-sanctioned murder can never be forgiven, nor should it be.

Art,

I would also guess then, that you are equallly incensed at the failure to count all the Florida Votes in the 2000 Presidental election per the Supreme Court's ruling.

After all, If Al Gore would have been president, we not have went to war in Iraq, we would have saved over 1700 American Lives. As opposed to one brain dead women that has so completely captured your attention.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

In this case, it is so clear that her continued existence would have harmed no one, that her court-sanctioned murder can never be forgiven, nor should it be.

Clear?

Did you know whether or not she was in any kind of pain or suffering?

Given the autopsy results showed that she had no workable brain function whatsoever, what exactly is the benefit of continuing her existence again? Unless the guy that did the autopsy was another liar.

Then you have the costs of keeping her alive. Edit: I note that later in this thread you lament closing health care outlets due to costs of illegal aliens...so spending money hand over fist keeping a vegetable alive:good, spending that money to keep a healthy person alive that isnt a US resident: bad.

So which is it...did she have enough going on upstairs that keeping her alive was worth it, although that amount of brain function could indicate the ability to feel pain and suffering, or was there not enough going on up there to feel pain and suffering, in which case there was no benefit to throwing hundreds of thousands of dollars a year into keeping her alive?

 

[Art]

I would also guess then, that you are equallly incensed at the failure to count all the Florida Votes in the 2000 Presidental election per the Supreme Court's ruling.

I would have been fine with a recount of the whole state- not with a recount only of the cherry-picked counties Mr. Lockbox demanded.

And as disgusted as I am with Bush (not for Iraq- which I think will turn out to be a good decision- but for his failure to protect our borders from being overrun by illegals) the thought of a Gore presidency still creeps me out.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Hmm...

Good decisions: Killing 100,000 iraqis and ~2000 american kids over lies and bad intelligence.

Bad decisions: The governor of florida not ignoring a court order and seizing a woman in violation of the law, not stopping illegal immigrants that form most of the low end of the economy in several states in the southwest.

Got it.

 

[Art]

Did you know whether or not she was in any kind of pain or suffering?

I believe her brother and sister when they described the terror they saw in her eyes at the very end. You don't. That's fine.

I believe her family, and the videos I saw, and the nurses from the early years, who said she recognized and interacted with them and looked forward to these visits. You don't. Cool.

I do not care whether she could have been rehabilitated- she probably couldn't be. I think she should have been left to her real family to care for her as best they could. You don't. Groovy.

We will not change each others minds. I think I'm done with this.

 

[Art]

not stopping illegal immigrants that form most of the low end of the economy in several states in the southwest.

Got it.

and who have destroyed large chunks of the health care infrastructure of those states. No, they DON'T pay their own way.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

With regards to the pain and suffering, I meant 'was she experiencing them while she was still on the tube'. You said that it was clear her continued existence harmed no one. What if she was in pain? My wife (who works in health care) says feeding tubes are quite painful.

According to the autopsy, she lacked sufficient brain function to feel terror, or to show it or to recognize or interact with anyone. In fact, for some time she was probably blind. So whatever the siblings think they saw, is just that. They saw what they wanted to see.

The videos. Yeah, I like those. Cherry picking a few moments of hundreds of hours of video to capture moments that look like she's responsive. Again, according to the autopsy, not enough brain function for anything other than random behavior due to various stimuli.

Once again: cherry picking video bits: good; cherry picking vote counts: bad. Got it.

I saw a real head shaker last night...watching "The daily show"...Stewart put on a clip of Frist, before 'terrys law' was thrown out saying "I've seen the videos...spent an hour looking at them in my office. Clearly she is not in a vegatative state and is responsive". Then another clip after the autopsy "I never made any diagnosis or statement regarding her mental state...I couldnt have...I never examined her". Stewarts comment: "Do these guys know that the news media has cameras?". Well put. Almost as funny as the time Frist made a half hearted effort to support the Bush administrations suggestion that aids could be transmitted by sweat.

See this http://www.comedycentral.com/sitewide/media_player/play.jhtml?itemId=15734

Click on 'act two' if the video doesnt automatically start...

A court decided that she couldnt be rehabilitated and that her body very well might be in some form of pain or suffering that her mind could not comprehend. The worst of all possible worlds in my opinion.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

and who have destroyed large chunks of the health care infrastructure of those states. No, they DON'T pay their own way.

Are you the same guy that was flogging that other dead horse last week? Hmmm...nope, that was another mistaken guy.

Illegal immigrants in the entire US use less than 2% of the 'free care' provided by hospitals. The numbers in states like california and texas when taken separately arent that much higher.

Sorry, also not factually supported.

 

[Art]

Illegal immigrants in the entire US use less than 2% of the 'free care' provided by hospitals.  The numbers in states like california and texas when taken separately arent that much higher.

Tell it to all the hospitals and hopital ER and Trauma Centers that are being shut down in large numbers in these states due to illegal immigrants and zero financial help from the feds.

I'm getting out of here for a while- I'll check back later.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Actually the federal government has committed a billion dollars to funding uninsured emergency room visits, not zero.

ER and trauma rooms ARE closing due to cost overruns, but only in very small numbers, not 'large numbers'. Even in the southernmost counties in california the number of emergency room visits by resident uninsureds vs illegal immigrants is 4:1. Its estimated that roughly half of those visits are not true emergencies and most of them are associated with substance abuse coupled with a minor ailment.

Hmm...44 million US resident uninsured vs 8 million illegal aliens.

Art...do you just read a tagline from some newspaper or web site and run with it or is there actually some kind of reliable source for these tidbits?

 

[Art]

Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Once again: cherry picking video bits: good; cherry picking vote counts: bad.  Got it.

"Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds."

Autopsies can't tell you what you are confident they can tell you.

The human brain has much redundancy and new pathways form that defy explanation. Great neurologists don't pretend they know and can explain it all. I'll err on the side of mom and dad, and no, I don't think her feeding tube bothered her as much as her murder did.

Later.

 

[Art]

Actually the federal government has committed a billion dollars to funding uninsured emergency room visits, not zero.

Art...do you just read a tagline from some newspaper or web site and run with it or is there actually some kind of reliable source for these tidbits?

I'll make a deal with you: I'll supply references for my data after you do. Fair enough?

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

"Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds."

I wasnt looking for foolish consistency, just any at all.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

[greg]

Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Terri (sp?) married her husband. At that point, she formed her own, new family. She went into a coma while married. Her husband, unless proven guilty of some nasty act, is responsible for making decision for her in those circumstances. She trusted him enough to marry him and live with him. When she can't make decisions or doesn't leave written instructions, he was/is responsible. It's sort of biblical to my mind. She's responsible for marrying him. She had no say in who her mother and father were; she freely chose her husband. She is responsible for her own choices.

The above is mostly about pre-nups and nups.

Regards, Off Topic

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

I'll make a deal with you: I'll supply references for my data after you do. Fair enough?

Fine, I'll show you mine; there are about 32,000,000 sources for this story

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=97027

Bush administration commits a billion dollars to illegal immigrant health care

Also notes that 84 hospitals in total have closed in CA over the past several years and does not specify that their closures were in whole or part due to treating illegal immigrants, with 9 expected to close in the next year, which would have been 2004.

Note that another source provides information saying that ~70 of those hospital closures are due to insurance programs and acts that have cut the amount paid to hospitals by the HMO's and insurance companies for insured patients.

Given that there are thousands of hospitals in CA, <100 is not a particularly large number. Further, other studies show that total hospital beds have increased in the last ten years while bed occupancy has declined.

Note also that none of this includes any new hospitals opened. One large HMO has opened more than 12 new hospitals in california since 1993.

Different sources estimate the california healthcare costs to manage illegal immigrants at 500M, 350M, 90M and 70M depending on who is counting. Mostly because people who come into the emergency room and have no insurance often give false names and addresses and nobody knows whether they're illegal or not. So if you feel like it being a large number, you 'estimate' the number of hispanics (or whatever immigrant group you feel like tagging) into the illegal pool. Note that 40% of legal hispanics in california have no insurance.

As far as the rest, do your own google searches. I doubt you're really that interested. I promise I dont just make this stuff up to disagree with you.

As far as the autopsy results...gosh...even the tin foil hat guys arent arguing with that one. I guess in the land of almost everything is possible you can get really angry and upset at an awful lot of stuff and go from there...

 

[Art]

Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

As far as the autopsy results...gosh...even the tin foil hat guys arent arguing with that one. 

I never disputed the autopsy results. I said: "Autopsies can't tell you what you are confident they can tell you."

Much of what you are mindlessly blathering about can only be determined by in-depth clinical exams over time- which (with the exception of Dr. Hammesfahr's 10 hour consult) Terri never had. (Hammesfahr's report can be googled). Crandall saw her for 45 minutes.

Autopsies are great. Given the controversy of this case- it's too bad a name pathologist was not called in to witness it- but I'd expect that in Numbnuts County. Still, I accept the autopsy results.