Can someone remind me why we're in Iraq?

cube_rat

Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
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Jul 12, 2005
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My son is somewhere in this f___ed up mess. I rarely pay attention to the news stories about Iraq because I can't dwell on the dangers my child is around on a daily basis. I would literally be a basket case if I watched CNN, or other news outlets.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/05/13/iraq.main/index.html

My heart goes out to the families of the killed soliders thus far in this senseless war and in particular, the soliders that have been abducted. I can't even imagine being told on mother's day that your son or daughter has been captured will quite possibly be executed in savage manner, on video to be proprogated over the news and internet.

This war needs to stop. How many of our kids need to die? Why are we Iraq again? Didn't we just execute Sadam by proxy? Where are those weapons of mass detruction? Oh, and we still haven't found Bin Laden...
 
I couldn't agree more!! The 'victory' was achieved when Sadam was removed and a new government was formed. Now it is theirs to run or ruin.

How does the present administration conclude that sacrifices must be made on Social Security when we are pouring money (and lives) down that hole:confused:
 
Same reason why I stopped watching the nightly news despite being someone who likes to stay informed. I get tired of hearing the same negative story over and over again - "Today was a deadly day in Iraq......" It never seems to change for the better :-\
 
Theres noway to respond to this thread without it blowing up. :LOL:
 
No good reason. This destabilized the region further. Since we are dependent on oil... we will be there for years.

GWB and his circle of sorry ba$tr@ds scr3wed all of us... it was a very poor decision (vengeful) decision. He had a personal ax to grind and it blinded is judgment and reason.

In a way, we are paying a premium for oil in several ways. one way... OPEC sticks it to us. The last two wars have been a huge tax to keep the oil flowing. We are probably already paying $6/gal if the accounting were properly applied.

I hope your son comes back to you safe and sound. Chances are he probably will be OK.
 
CubeRat: There's no denying the danger in Iraq, but rest assured the military takes good care of their own in combat settings. I'm sure your son has many good friends in his unit and that anyone of them would go to the ends of the earth for each other.
Why are we in Iraq; Just MHO of course, but we are there because of what may go down as the stupidist move of the decade (or worse). We are STILL there because the graceful exit has not shown itself. To simply walk out now could very well lead to an Iran with twice the power plus nukes, or many other senarios, all bad. The salvation of this blunder will come from some form of voodoo diplomacy or it won't come. I like the idea of benchmarks for Iraq and better yet the concept of the Dems shutting the %&#@* up. It is time for a nonstop diplomatic effort to end this crap because no 5 armies on earth can win this thing in the streets within the rules we have imposed on ourselves. We need to get back home and get to work on our policies so the next time this comes up an Air Force crew of 5 can end it and then only if our assasination efforts have failed. :mad:
Cube Rat. From news I have received from "real" sources, our military is doing a fine job and you should be proud, as I'm sure you are, of you sons service.
A pox on the house of the media who have made this struggle so much more difficult.
 
we are bringing democracy to the natives...... lets see ,let me count the number of muslium democratic nations we now have.... why theres... then theres ......... okay im stumped!
 
mathjak107 said:
we are bringing democracy to the natives...... lets see ,let me count the number of muslium democratic nations we now have.... why theres... then theres ......... okay im stumped!

Turkey
 
JPatrick said:
A pox on the house of the media who have made this struggle so much more difficult.

An inept administration is who has made this difficult.

The media was the adminstration's puppet at the beginning of the war through the '04 elections - enabling this debacle to begin and continue - if that's what you're comment is referring to - I'm with ya!!!
 
cube, first, thank you for your son's Service to his country. As an ex-military guy, I found myself in situations I would rather not be in, as did my father and his father. There are as many answers to your question as there are political views, but none of them address the personal situation of every soldier and every parent. In the middle of a war, it matters more that there are Americans willing to defend their country than it matters why we're there. The latter question, and what to do about it, is one for politicians and voters to decide. I have my own ideas but they are only that.

I echo JPatrick, the military takes care of their own. It's a dangerous situation but rest assured every soldier and every commander is working to win while minimizing casualties on both sides, but especially on our side. Explosions make good press stories. Only those who are there know the real story.
 
>>In the middle of a war, it matters more that there are Americans willing to defend their country than it matters why we're there.

Geez, really? I'd think the guys (and girls) that are doing the fighting might actually like to understand why they are there while they are dying everyday..

And not really sure what we are supposedly "defending their country" from...Saddam? He's dead...and never was a real threat to me or anyone else in the US...

I am pretty sure the only thing the soldiers are "defending" is the president having to admit that (a) we never should have gone their in the first place, (b) Iraq was never a threat to the US, (c) we had no idea what a "win" in Iraq would look like, (d) once we took power we had no idea what to do with it and (e) we have no idea how to get the hell out....

The only thing amazing to me is that 28% of americans still think Bush is doing a good job...lower approval rating than even Jimmy Carter :LOL:
 
OldMcDonald said:
Geez, really? I'd think the guys (and girls) that are doing the fighting might actually like to understand why they are there while they are dying everyday..
Well, we've been meddling in the region for most of a century, so maybe it'll take more than a few years to unscrew the situation. I certainly don't have the answers.

We've had thousands killed since 2003. Does anyone remember how many were killed between 1979-2002 doing the same thing with more restrictive ROE? I don't know if it's better to do it this way but the previous method had more than demonstrated its lack of success. And I'm afraid that if we beat feet now, in another four or five years someone will once again start banging the drum to get in there and fix it right.

I don't care what CNN or Fox think. Cube_rat, what's your son think?
 
OldMcDonald said:
Geez, really? I'd think the guys (and girls) that are doing the fighting might actually like to understand why they are there while they are dying everyday..

Yes, the reason they are there is to fight and win by making the bad guys quit their cause or die for their cause. Other questions are left to politicians. I was reponding to a father concerned about his son.

PS What can a sodier do if they decide they are there for the wrong reason? Give a two weeks notice?
 
all we did is create a future super power complete with nuclear know how as iraq/iran shiites combine to form a super power

we did a stupid thing ,we already had iraq under a microscope and anytime we suspected them of anything we could fuel up the infidel jets and bomb the crap out of them, and everyone goes home. so instead we create a nuclear super-power . nice work!
 
Mathjak

From Wikipedia,

Turkey is a parliamentary representative democracy. Since its foundation as a republic in 1923, Turkey has developed a strong tradition of secularism. Turkey's constitution governs the legal framework of the country. It sets out the main principles of government and establishes Turkey as a unitary centralized state. The current constitution was ratified by referendum in 1982 and has been amended numerous times in recent years.

It is true that the Turkish military exerts it influence every now and then when it looks like an Islamic party may gain power. (Note the comment on secularism from Wikipedia.) In fact if you have been tracking international politics you will know that there have been some recent developments in that regard.

MB
 
in order to be a true muslim you must follow the koran. from what i have had read to me from the koran, democracy can't exist following what is written. there is more to democracy than elections. human rights, tolerance of others, womens rights etc it all goes against whats written. . these things make up a true democracy.
 
Here is a letter to the editor I am working on. It is my attempt to answer the question.

Seven score and 4 years ago our nation was engaged in a great civil war, testing our national will. Much like today, a war of words was also waged between those who declared the war lost and demanded an immediate peace and those grimly determined to persevere in order to achieve victory for freedom.

The rhetoric of the 1864 Democratic platform, sounds at bit more elevated than "impeach Bush" and "bring the troops home now" but the sentiment is same.
Resolved, That this convention does explicitly declare, as the sense of the American people, that after four years of failure to restore the Union by the experiment of war, during which, under the pretense of a military necessity of war-power higher than the Constitution, the Constitution itself has been disregarded in every part, and public liberty and private right alike trodden down, and the material prosperity of the country essentially impaired, justice, humanity, liberty, and the public welfare demand that immediate efforts be made for a cessation of hostilities, with a view of an ultimate convention of the States, or other peaceable means, to the end that, at the earliest practicable moment, peace may be restored on the basis of the Federal Union of the States.

The rest of the 1864 platform ( http://tinyurl.com/2t86ey ) could be nicely summarized as " support our troops but no more blood for blacks"

Sadly George W Bush is not Abraham Lincoln. However, if one looks at the catastrophic military blunders made by the North in the beginning of the Civil War and the vicious attacks on Lincoln by his opponents and the media they don't look so different.. Now some may protest that comparing the Iraq war to the Civil war is unfair. Still the US has 100+ year history of military intervention in other countries civil wars including in Russia, China, Latin America, the Middle East, and of course most recently, in Korea, Vietnam, and the Balkans. Unfortunately, we are not always successful in our intervention. However, when we fail (as in Vietnam) or fail to intervene (as in Darfur), the consequence are bad for America and catastrophic for the other country.

Our fathers and grandfathers war in Korea is good example of our intervention in a civil war. Korea, like Iraq was a war of choice, the stated reasons we went to war was prevent the spread of communism, but keeping the fledging South Korean democracy from being replaced by tyrannical regime was also important. Now with perfect hindsight Communism (like WMD) were probably not as big of threat to our security as we were lead to believe. So on one level the chant (pick your President) lied and people died is correct. However, what war protester of the American civil war, Korean, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq war turn a blind eye is that regimes we were/are fighting against are truly horrific. Slavery in the south, Vietnamese reeducation camps, Pol Pot's killing fields, Milosevic's ethnic cleansing, the Taliban's stonings in the soccer stadium, Saddam's raping and gassing, Kim Jong Il and his dad's concentration camps and state famine are all examples of the evil we are really fighting.. These victims are not counting by the thousands like our war dead but by the millions and tens of millions. Our success in unpopular wars, has prevented millions of more victims, our failures (and failures to act) have emboldens the regimes to commit unimaginable atrocities. One only has to look at the prosperity of South Korea, and the hellish conditions of North Korea, to get an idea of the good America can do in a civil war, and the consequence when we aren't totally victorious.

President Kennedy said "Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and the success of liberty." JFK, was wrong we will not pay any price for other people's liberty. For instance, In the cold war, we would not risk a full scale war with Russia or China to help a country they invaded. But just because we will not pay "ANY" price doesn't mean we should be willing to pay SOME price. The table below shows a couple examples of the burden America has being willing to bear for "liberty".


Total Deaths Deaths Per Millions Freed People Liberated
Million Americans per American Death
Civil War (Union) 350,000 15,975 3.9 11
Korean War 33,651 224 20.3 603
Iraq War 3384 11 26.8 7920

I am guessing few Civil War moms were willing to sacrifice their son's lives to free eleven slaves (Especially because few white people felt Negroes were capable of handling freedom and democracy' sound familiar?). However, looking back aren't we glad they did? Almost all American's understand that removing Saddam regime was a great victory for liberty, when Saddam was executed he took with the infamous title,of "World #1 living killer". We also know that Iraq in anarchy, or controlled by clerics close to Iran, or by Al-Qaeda are all bad for the US and even worse for the long suffering people of Iraq . Those who declare this war un-winnable are ignoring the long and generally successful role that the US and our British allies have had in gradually bring stability to unstable situations. Iraq is not a football game and we are not in the fourth quarter. It is more like climbing a mountain, after discovering our first trail has been closed due to a rock slide. We have the best mountain climbers in world in our armed services and a new and very capable guide. The generations before us have climbed higher mountains, and under far worse conditions, we need to keep going.
 
clifp.
That's some great sentiment there, well put. Send that letter in!

mathjak,
The US is not a democracy either, thank goodness. The founding fathers were too smart for that.
Turkey is the best exampe we can hope for of a nation with a majority Muslim population that respects individual rights and has a secular government. To make this happen, Ataturk had to trample on popular sentiment. Even today, Muslims there have less freedom to bring religion into the public life than they do in America (for example, it is illegal in Turkey for woment o wear head scarves into government buildings). This sounds incredible to us in the US, but if these "over-the-top" measures had not been put into place by Ataturk, Turkey would be as backward today as Saudi Arabia is.
In sum, if Turkey had been established as a "pure" democracy (which always fail inpractice), the people would have voted in a Muslim cleric as their leader and as their legislators--and the laws they would have put into place would have assured Turkey was not a democracy anymore.
 
Nope...in fact there are NO "true" democracy's in the world.

The US is in essence an imperial republic.

Anything even close to a "true" democracy would probably fly apart or be invaded in about 3 minutes.
 
I think what galls us it that the Iraq war is a case of bait and switch.

If we hadn't been told the truth I don't think we would have gone to war. Americans don't like liars.

Second, the administration didn't execute the mission. A fiasco.

A liar, an incompetent, or both.
 
Yeah, used to be the republicans were scumbags but had good execution. The dems were nice folks with lousy execution of good ideas.

Now its tough to pick out whats what.
 
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