Chip and signature cards

[audreyh1]

I have a card that was supposed to be chip and signature/pin. But, in Europe when I used it in automated machines to buy bus tickets and other services, it never worked. Fortunately, there was always a machine nearby that would take Euro cash and coins.

What a mess!

Sometimes the issue is the kiosk company. Deutsche Bahn kiosks would not acct my card. But the Vienna Metro kiosk happily prompted me for my PIN, and the transaction went through.

But that will only with a chip and PIN card. You can't use a chip and signature card in those kiosks.

 

[explanade]

The cards have a priority list. Most US issued cards will default to signature verification.

I have a Barclays Arrival Plus MasterCard. Most places, I had to sign with it.

But I was able to use it at some metro or train kiosks where my other chip and signature cards didn't work.

I also was able to charge like 50 Euros in gas at an unattended gas station, again where my Chase Sapphire Preferred chip and signature Visa didn't work.

It doesn't charge any fees for foreign currencies so it's really good for travel. However, it has a $85 or $95 annual fee after the first year and I'm not sure I would keep it in addition to the Chase Sapphire Preferred, which also has a $95 annual fee but offers better rewards.

I'm hoping things like Apple Pay takes off, so it wouldn't matter what kind of card you have, at least for smaller sums (say under $25 or $50). But it would require all these places to update their machines to support contactless or NFC scanners.

I think old gas stations would be the toughest places. Often they don't have attendants or are closed from like 12 to 3 PM so you have to use the kiosks which only take chip and PIN cards.

 

[Lsbcal]

Is there a way to check if your Visa card is a chip & PIN while in the USA?

I have a Chase Sapphire and BofA Visa. Both have chips and I thought they could handle chip & PIN. But we will be in Europe this September and it would be good to test them here.

 

[Jackanory]

I implemented Chip and PIN for a payment services organization shortly before retirement. I left the job of puzzling through the ramifications of implementing signatures to the guy who took over. I'm sure he's still silently cursing me!


Personally, I shudder at the thought of my financial security being entrusted to some bleary-eyed clerk scrutinizing scribbles!

 

[explanade]

Those are chip and signature.

And if they were chip and PIN, they'd have sent you the PIN codes. Not the cash advance PIN but PIN for the chip in them.

You'll just have to go to places with human attendants. For instance use the ticket window at the train station instead of the kiosks.

 

[Chuckanut]

You'll just have to go to places with human attendants. For instance use the ticket window at the train station instead of the kiosks.

And that is exactly the problem. Often the line at the ticket window can be a 20 or 30 minute wait. And, as mentioned previously, some places have no human interface at all. Either your card works, or you don't buy your tickets, gasoline, etc.

The banks have put us into another silly mess.

 

[Lsbcal]

Those are chip and signature.

And if they were chip and PIN, they'd have sent you the PIN codes. Not the cash advance PIN but PIN for the chip in them.

You'll just have to go to places with human attendants. For instance use the ticket window at the train station instead of the kiosks.

Maybe you are responding to my question? The problem is they may have sent me a PIN code but I always destroy the printout and write it down in a secret place. All my cards use the same PIN so I won't get confused.

The problem remains, how to test a card before the need overseas?

EDIT: I called Chase and my card is indeed the chip/signature. They are interested in chip/pin but it's not here yet.

 

[audreyh1]

Is there a way to check if your Visa card is a chip & PIN while in the USA?

I have a Chase Sapphire and BofA Visa. Both have chips and I thought they could handle chip & PIN. But we will be in Europe this September and it would be good to test them here.

I can tell you that neither card is a chip and PIN. Neither of those banks issues a chip and PIN card.

I have the BofA VISA.

Only a few credit unions issue chip and PIN cards in the US. PenFed is one of them. Also the ones Braumaster used.

I don't know of a way to test in the US.

 

[Lsbcal]

I can tell you that neither card is a chip and PIN. Neither of those banks issues a chip and PIN card.

I have the BofA VISA.

Only a few credit unions issue chip and PIN cards in the US. PenFed is one of them. Also the ones Braumaster used.

I don't know of a way to test in the US.

Thanks. Oh well, so far we have not had problems in the UK (2013) and France (2012). I guess we'll survive in Italy and Greece.

 

[audreyh1]

Thanks. Oh well, so far we have not had problems in the UK (2013) and France (2012). I guess we'll survive in Italy and Greece.

It's only if you want to buy a bus ticket or a train ticket and would like to avoid the long lines at the ticket windows that this becomes an issue. And out in the boonies, for tickets or gas, sometimes an automatic kiosk is the only option. In the latter case, cash may work just fine in the machine, except for the Netherlands that strives to go cashless. The othe EU countries still readily accept cash.

 

[Lsbcal]

It's only if you want to buy a bus ticket or a train ticket and would like to avoid the long lines at the ticket windows that this becomes an issue. And out in the boonies, for tickets or gas, sometimes an automatic kiosk is the only option. In the latter case, cash may work just fine in the machine, except for the Netherlands that strives to go cashless. The othe EU countries still readily accept cash.

In Italy we plan on traveling by train and bus (no car). We're not going to do too many hops though because that is just too tiring. Current plan is train from Rome to Assisi, then to Orvieto, then to Sienna. Then bus to Florence. I'm guessing we will not have that big an issue with ticket lines.

 

[Chuckanut]

Only a few credit unions issue chip and PIN cards in the US. PenFed is one of them. Also the ones Braumaster used.

I thought I read where PenFed reverted back to chip and signature for their credit cards. Perhaps I am wrong.

 

[audreyh1]

I thought I read where PenFed reverted back to chip and signature for their credit cards. Perhaps I am wrong.

Alan, I think, was having trouble with his card. But mine, issued late Spring 2014 worked. His first card was an American Express. He later got a VISA I think.

Here is an article from Oct 2014, so it's pretty current.
9 Chip + PIN credit cards with no foreign fees | MileCards.com

 

[Jack_Pine]

Yes, and how often do stores actually LOOK closely at the signature on the back of one's card, and compared it with one's signature? Not often as far as I can tell.

I don't think the signature is any kind of security at all for us.

Agreed, I signed my cards "See Identification", only about 1/2 do it.

 

[Alan]

I really wanted a CHIP and PIN card and initially Penfed said they did CHIP and PIN, plus it has no foreign transaction fees. However after they sent the new card and I tried it in Canada it was only CHIP and Signature, and wouldn't work in a car park with an unattended kiosk.

I contacted them and complained, and they assured me that they did do CHIP and PIN and sent me another, however the PIN is only there for cash advances. I used it all over Australia and New Zealand and it never prompted for a PIN and I got to used to telling merchants, "It's American, they don't do CHIP and PIN". When I tried to use it at an unattended kiosk in Sydney to buy ferry tickets it didn't work without a PIN but luckily there was an attendant wandering around with a mobile CC reader for tourists like us.

We'll be back in Canada for quite a few weeks this year, and I'm resigned to having to explain that, yes, it looks and behaves like a CHIP & PIN card but when you turn away while I enter my PIN, I have only touched the approve button and there is no authorization until I sign the receipt you need to print out. I will be carrying my UK CHIP and PIN card for the few times I may encounter unattended kiosks that don't take cash.

In the UK it is worse because I have a British accent the merchants find it hard to believe a UK person has such a weird card. Places with many American tourists don't have a problem, but on Ilkley moor bar t'at it is more of an issue.

 

[nuke_diver]

Yes, and how often do stores actually LOOK closely at the signature on the back of one's card, and compared it with one's signature? Not often as far as I can tell.

I don't think the signature is any kind of security at all for us.

Apparently not at all IMO. I had my wallet stolen at the gym once, one of the cards had my picture on it....they only put $8K on it before the bank thought it might be fraudulent . I know people who instead of signing put see ID...no one asks

I am shocked that these "executives" somehow think that Americans are incapable of remembering a pin when the ROW is capable...

 

[meierlde]

In Italy we plan on traveling by train and bus (no car). We're not going to do too many hops though because that is just too tiring. Current plan is train from Rome to Assisi, then to Orvieto, then to Sienna. Then bus to Florence. I'm guessing we will not have that big an issue with ticket lines.

Assuming you don't reside in the EU, why not buy an italy rail pass which works for 3 4 5 or 8 days in a month, and eliminate the whole issue of ticketing? Here is a link to more information on the pass Italy Rail Pass: Eurail Pass Prices - Book at Rail Europe

With the pass after you first validate, its no ticket lines at all.

 

[anethum]

My PenFed Visa did not work in kiosks in France in 2014, and it was an annoying inconvenience. With humans, I always had to sign. Several times, I had to tell merchants that I had to sign, because they saw the chip in the card and assumed I had a "normal" card. They turned the hand-held device around for me to enter my PIN, but I was never prompted for my PIN. Instead, the device spit out a 2nd piece of paper for me to sign.

 

[M Paquette]

According to this article in the WSJ, American banks will be giving us chip and signature cards this year. Apparently, they believe their customers will find chip and pin cards to inconvenient.

"U.S. bank executives said they are choosing the signature version so customers won’t be burdened at the checkout line to remember a new four-digit code."

Well, that and signature-based transactions get a larger slice of most retail transactions than the PIN based credit transaction. The PIN transaction goes through as an 'online' transaction, while the signature goes as an 'offline' transaction, even though it's through the same POS terminal! 'Offline' transactions get an interchange fee tacked on, usually a small part of the sale price, that the merchant has to pay. (Merchants are typically prohibited from offering a better price for PIN transactions, or charging extra for signature transactions by the card processing agreement.)

But, yeah, I'm sure it is really about customer convenience. While those wily Europeans can remember a 4 digit PIN, that burden shouldn't be born by USAians. That's just asking too much. The thought that they might make more money this way had probably never crossed the card companies minds.

 

[rodi]

Assuming you don't reside in the EU, why not buy an italy rail pass which works for 3 4 5 or 8 days in a month, and eliminate the whole issue of ticketing? Here is a link to more information on the pass Italy Rail Pass: Eurail Pass Prices - Book at Rail Europe

With the pass after you first validate, its no ticket lines at all.

I'd look hard at the prices before assuming the railpass is cheaper. It *is* more convenient - but when I priced fares (using trenitalia) I was able to find deals much better than the rail pass.

 

[audreyh1]

Right - rail passes are often not cheaper

 

[audreyh1]

My PenFed Visa did not work in kiosks in France in 2014, and it was an annoying inconvenience. With humans, I always had to sign. Several times, I had to tell merchants that I had to sign, because they saw the chip in the card and assumed I had a "normal" card. They turned the hand-held device around for me to enter my PIN, but I was never prompted for my PIN. Instead, the device spit out a 2nd piece of paper for me to sign.

I think the France kiosk issue probably was that your card was not issued in the Eurozone.

 

[Lsbcal]

Assuming you don't reside in the EU, why not buy an italy rail pass which works for 3 4 5 or 8 days in a month, and eliminate the whole issue of ticketing? Here is a link to more information on the pass Italy Rail Pass: Eurail Pass Prices - Book at Rail Europe

With the pass after you first validate, its no ticket lines at all.

Apparently it's only about 9 Euro to go from Rome to Assisi and tickets are easy to get at the time of travel. I think the Railpasses are good for people who are traveling long distances within a short time span ... just a guess though.

The last time we were in Italy we had a rail pass but that was 1972.

 

[audreyh1]

Apparently it's only about 9 Euro to go from Rome to Assisi and tickets are easy to get at the time of travel. I think the Railpasses are good for people who are traveling long distances within a short time span ... just a guess though.

The last time we were in Italy we had a rail pass but that was 1972.

Yes, quite a few countries and regions have amazing deals for unlimited travel all day if you don't travel during early morning rush hour.

 

[SteveNU]

It adds security by making sure the original card is present at the time of purchase, as opposed to the one the bad guy skimmed at the gas station, or the one copied by the bad guy at thr restaurant. The banks are too big to care to do anything that would be more efficient...that's going to take an upstart. You'll probably see chip and pin at some entity trying to break into banking (did anyone think "Walmart"?)

I'm not sure if that is true as our Chase Sapphire Chip & Signature card still has the magnetic strip on it and that is how it used most of the time here in the states. The only place that has the chip reader functional that I can recall is Walmart, everywhere else it works like a regular card.

We recently had a fraudulent transaction on our Chase Sapphire Chip & Signature card after traveling to Ireland a few months ago. They used it for an online purchase so the chip part didn't add any securty.

Our cards are actually made out of metal with the chip embedded in it. They provided a prepaid envelope to send back the cancelled cards to be destroyed. So I'm sure the issuers are also looking at the cost of providing and servicing those cards vs. the cost of the losses to fraud using the cheaper plastic cards without a chip.