College

People should have the ability to discharge student debt with bankruptcy, just as they can for everything else. That would fix a whole lot of problems.

I would think that the economics of supply and demand would apply both ways. The current law that prohibits students from discharging their loans by bankruptcy should provide an incentive for students to think hard about taking out a loan in the first place and for making wise decisions about what to study if they do take out a loan. Educational institutions should not be giving out false or misleading information about their programs and the future prospects of their graduates. I can see some regulation in that area. However, these days, there is more than enough information available for students and parents to evaluate the value of a loan vs the education being sought.

On the other hand, if students could declare bankruptcy, then banks would have to decide whether to give out risky loans and under what terms. That could be fair too but then we would probably see loans dry up (which could be a good thing) and we would see banks making the decisions about which fields of study are worth the risk of a loan.

Personally, I don't think banks should be making the decisions about which courses of study are worthwhile. It is hardly their area of expertise.
 
Personally, I don't think banks should be making the decisions about which courses of study are worthwhile. It is hardly their area of expertise.

As I pointed out above, banks have very little to do with it. Student loans are primarily coming from the government today.

There is no loan market involved, just government policy.
 
I would think that the economics of supply and demand would apply both ways. The current law that prohibits students from discharging their loans by bankruptcy should provide an incentive for students to think hard about taking out a loan in the first place and for making wise decisions about what to study if they do take out a loan. Educational institutions should not be giving out false or misleading information about their programs and the future prospects of their graduates. I can see some regulation in that area. However, these days, there is more than enough information available for students and parents to evaluate the value of a loan vs the education being sought.

On the other hand, if students could declare bankruptcy, then banks would have to decide whether to give out risky loans and under what terms. That could be fair too but then we would probably see loans dry up (which could be a good thing) and we would see banks making the decisions about which fields of study are worth the risk of a loan.

Personally, I don't think banks should be making the decisions about which courses of study are worthwhile. It is hardly their area of expertise.

On your first part... there seems to be ample evidence that your thinking is not correct.... that is why there seems to be this huge student loan problem that was not a problem many years ago...

To your last stmt, I agree... but their area of expertise is underwriting loans... IOW, with the example in my last post any bank officer would never have lent so much to someone without ANY ability to pay... it does not matter what job etc. the son has as from what it seems to me is that the mom is on the hook...
 
Usually by the time a high school student is looking around at colleges he or she has been subjected to many years of unrealistic, pie in the sky direct and indirect selling from teachers, other students, and guidance counselors. She has been living on her parents' dime, often with zero adult responsibilities or opportunity to find out how the world really works. This is even more likely today, when it is so hard for young people to get jobs where they would get exposure to the real world. If they volunteer at something, too often it is to polish a resume, with the sole purpose of getting into a better college. If she and her boyfriend go to a movie, they get more propaganda about how all the cool kids are going off to Princeton or Vassar, and the losers are going to be stuck in some dead end job.
She will never see a movie about what a dent in her lifestyle will be made by $100,000 in student loans, when she is an entry level banker and is forced to come back to Mom and Dad's home to survive, where Dad's rules may not be welcome but what can she do?

My parents rented apartments to students and young working people, and I remember one night in the early 60s, sitting in the garden with a couple of these girls. I asked the cuter one whät she was studying, and she answered "Implied Arts". It's been years, and I cannot remember her name, but I sure remember her course of study. She was on her way home by the end of her first semester

I hold the parents responsible, not because they caused this mess, but because they are the only experienced actors who stand to lose right along with the student when the pinch comes. They are the ones who love their daughter, and really know her.
I think we have a nation of infantile morons making decisions that used to be made by adults.

A kid should go to college on her own dime and her own borrowing, or with very clear, unambiguous limits-like you can live at home and go to local state university, or get a full ride scholarship, or get accepted into a self sustaining co-op program, etc. Only then will she ask herself, do I really know what this will get me, and will what I can from it get allow me to have a reasonably enjoyable life pretty quickly, as well as to retire the debt?

It's the decision any young person has to make when he or she attempts to buy a business, or buy tools to start an apprenticeship, or any other reasonable start to a free living, independent adult life.

Too many of our colleges and universities seem to think that their clients are like 19th century swells who went to Oxbridge to "read classics" or some such. Except those 19th century students usually did do some serious work, whereas the typical American liberal arts college teaches very little.
 
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On your first part... there seems to be ample evidence that your thinking is not correct.... that is why there seems to be this huge student loan problem that was not a problem many years ago...

I agree that it hasn't worked as it should. I'm just pointing out that returning to the days when students could declare bankruptcy didn't and probably wouldn't work either. Something more complicated and/or irrational is going on.
 
There is no loan market involved, just government policy.

I don't think most people would be comfortable with the government making these value decisions either. Or from another point of view it would be politically impossible to make those decisions.

The Government role could be to collect and collate the data in a way that everyone in the process could make a more informed decision.
 
This might seem to imply that people who don't want higher education aren't motivated.
Sorry about that. I didn't mean to imply that a BS or BA was the only path for motivated people. There are tons of other ways, and many of them would rocket the person to the top, beyond the degree seekers.
 
UF, by the way, is a hick school in a hick town in a hick state. It's embarrassing what they charge for their " education."
What would your mom say about that comment? Back in the day, people here were at least passive-agressive, hehe. I only mentioned my hick school because I thought the "Gator" in your ID had something to do with UF.

My comment was an attempt at humor. Sorry if it got under your skin.
 
I think the logic works like this. There is an excess demand on college ergo college prices rise. This in turn should reduce demand on college due to market forces. But student loans allows people pay above their means for college. What will make sure such loans will be productive is the entities that make the loan since there is always the risk of default. But if student loans cannot be removed via default, then entities that make the student loans will continue to make these loans despite the risk of default since the changes of eventual repayment is higher. So fixing this will eventually fix the excess demand for college and bring college costs into line with market forces.

How about these market forces: Students pick a major that has low prospects of monitary success in the future and figure, what the heck, if doesn't work out, at least it won't cost me a dime. In some ways, it might be cool; you could get students "swinging for the fences"! Might benefit society to have less pressure on pushing students to the "safe options". But it's not free, of course. The other students that did pay would simply have higher costs on their loans or the taxpayers would pick up the tab.
 
sengsational said:
What would your mom say about that comment? Back in the day, people here were at least passive-agressive, hehe. I only mentioned my hick school because I thought the "Gator" in your ID had something to do with UF.

My comment was an attempt at humor. Sorry if it got under your skin.

I am a Gator. They have lost their way in recent years. Because they now have great sport teams they are popular with the kids and are now highly selective and attract the highest achieving students. Unfortunately, their education hasn't kept pace with their athletics and a whole lot of talent is wasted on them. Sorry, my comments were not directed to you personally.
 
The problems lie in many places.

One is the irrational exuberance that most schools exhibited in the rush to capitalize on the "necessity" of higher educations.

A small example. My college tuition in 1954 was $800/yr... rather high at the time. Inflation would bring that to $7000/yr. today. The actual tuition cost now, is $43,000.

In the interim, the school, like almost all schools, has upgraded with new dorms, buildings, sports facilities, and all manner of extras, superflous to education per se. It is not only the capital expenditures, but the infrastructure ongoing costs that have caused this overwhelming structure for higher education.

A review of the capital improvement expenses in almost every school will show similar base expense increases.
 
The problems lie in many places.

One is the irrational exuberance that most schools exhibited in the rush to capitalize on the "necessity" of higher educations.

A small example. My college tuition in 1954 was $800/yr... rather high at the time. Inflation would bring that to $7000/yr. today. The actual tuition cost now, is $43,000.

In the interim, the school, like almost all schools, has upgraded with new dorms, buildings, sports facilities, and all manner of extras, superflous to education per se. It is not only the capital expenditures, but the infrastructure ongoing costs that have caused this overwhelming structure for higher education.

A review of the capital improvement expenses in almost every school will show similar base expense increases.


This is not limited to colleges.... I was looking a person up at my son's high school... I was shocked to see that they have 11 vice principals and something like 20 counselors.... when I went to high school, there were 2 vice principals and 3 counselors... it was half as big, but still...
 
This is not limited to colleges.... I was looking a person up at my son's high school... I was shocked to see that they have 11 vice principals and something like 20 counselors.... when I went to high school, there were 2 vice principals and 3 counselors... it was half as big, but still...

The school district one suburb away built a humongous, $60M football stadium recently. Wonder what their science labs look like?
 
College costs have risen MUCH faster than the rate of inflation, yet I have seen no real study that tells me that overall student graduation rates or knowledge base is higher.

There is nothing wrong with being a pumber or electrician or diesel mechanic. I know a fair number of folks in the trades and most of them make a very nice living..........:)
 
College costs have risen MUCH faster than the rate of inflation, yet I have seen no real study that tells me that overall student graduation rates or knowledge base is higher.

There is nothing wrong with being a pumber or electrician or diesel mechanic. I know a fair number of folks in the trades and most of them make a very nice living..........:)

I know a couple of ladies in the trade... :whistle:
 
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Student Loan defaults up 36% in one year.Student Loan Defaults Soar By 36% Compared To Year Ago | Zero Hedge

Current student loans total nearly One Trillion Dollars.

Not too surprising since college costs have increased over
1,120 PERCENT in the past 30 years since 1978.
When I w*rked, we called these "gee whiz numbers". As in, the audience would say oh boy and gee whiz, and the presenter would move along and make a point unrelated to the numbers. Without context, entertaining but not meaningful.
 
Surely you could share some context and opinion instead of cold naked links?
 
MichaelB said:
When I w*rked, we called these "gee whiz numbers". As in, the audience would say oh boy and gee whiz, and the presenter would move along and make a point unrelated to the numbers. Without context, entertaining but not meaningful.


As with the mortgage crisis, these debts will be paid back in the form of an overall lower standard of living. Fewer good jobs, less pay, along with inflation. As long as the electorate doesn't have to write checks to cover the losses, they don't see it as a problem. So, as you say, the gee whiz numbers are not meaningful to many.
 
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