Communication

[Pete]

It might be that good communication brought us humans to the top of the evolutionary heap.
I spent my career dealing with the very bottom of society and thought how unfortunate it was there was such a communication break down there. "That's to the curb" meaning trash or something bad. "Broom the floor" instead of sweep it...Sketch, rad, bogus.... and a variety of other perversions too numerous to mention.
There is the idea that poor communication tears society apart. Apparently, God even used it as a weapon against the evil.
I never thought to look up...to our elites...who use terms like deleveraging, GDP, credit default swaps, derivatives, structured investment vehicles, securitization, and the like to confuse us and remove our voices from the debate.
When we finally figure out what unemployment means, they change the definition of what it means to be out of work.
We need to understand and concern ourselves with the real world. We can't learn from history and compare our situation, if we don't know or can't communicate what's hapening now.

 

[REWahoo]

Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying. Is there a question or a message in there somewhere?*

* Where the heck is that sarcasm smilie...

 

[e86s54]

So being educated is a good thing then!

 

[calmloki]

"Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra."

 

[Leonidas]

"Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra."

"Shaka, when the walls fell."

 

[brewer12345]

Perhaps the tinfoil helmet is askew and the alien brain control waves are getting through.

 

[bbbamI]

"Shaka, when the walls fell."

Ok, I'll play....

"Temba, his arms wide!"

 

[W2R]

It might be that good communication brought us humans to the top of the evolutionary heap.
I spent my career dealing with the very bottom of society and thought how unfortunate it was there was such a communication break down there. "That's to the curb" meaning trash or something bad. "Broom the floor" instead of sweep it...Sketch, rad, bogus.... and a variety of other perversions too numerous to mention.
There is the idea that poor communication tears society apart. Apparently, God even used it as a weapon against the evil.
I never thought to look up...to our elites...who use terms like deleveraging, GDP, credit default swaps, derivatives, structured investment vehicles, securitization, and the like to confuse us and remove our voices from the debate.
When we finally figure out what unemployment means, they change the definition of what it means to be out of work.
We need to understand and concern ourselves with the real world. We can't learn from history and compare our situation, if we don't know or can't communicate what's hapening now.

My mother was an English teacher and editor, and felt the same way. The study of our own language is usually considered to be essential if one is to become a truly educated person. Education does not mean grades completed or degrees earned, in my opinion. Education is very helpful in many aspects of live and I think it is essential if our civilization is to advance.

 

[Pete]

Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying. Is there a question or a message in there somewhere?*

Just a thought that occurred to me while looking at another thread. As far as I know, we're neither elites or dregs here.... A certain degree of understanding is necessary for us to learn. Bringing some of this language to a discussion, although spewed by our politicians and accepted by those who interview them, seems to add confusion at times.

Someone might say the economy is getting better, unemployment is falling. Well, the definition of unemployment has changed. We need to be diligent in conversation (and in our own minds) today because the language beneath it is being perverted.

The poor might have done it as a matter of fun or ignorance. My feeling is the elites are doing it to purposly confuse us.

 

[audreyh1]

La destrucción de la Torre de Babel por Dios tuvo la intención de limitar la capacidad de humanos communicarse bién uno a otro. Sin embargo, civilización humana ha llegado lejos a pesar de muchos idiomas y culturas diferentes.

¿Por qué se molesta tanto por pequeños cambios en frases en el uso familiar del idioma? Creo que el cerebro humano es diseñado para comprender muchas variaciones en la expresión.

Audrey (que estos días mira telenovelas mexicanas mejorar su comprensión española.)

 

[REWahoo]

La destrucción de la Torre de Babel por Dios tuvo la intención de limitar la capacidad de humanos communicarse bién uno a otro. Sin embargo, civilización humana ha llegado lejos a pesar de muchos idiomas y culturas diferentes.

¿Por qué se molesta tanto por pequeños cambios en frases en el uso familiar del idioma? Creo que el cerebro humano es diseñado para comprender muchas variaciones en la expresión.

Audrey (que estos días mira telenovelas mexicanas para mejorar su comprensión española.)

Run through Google Translate and you get:

Destruction of the tower of Babel by God intended to limit the capacity of humans to each other also communicable. However, human civilization has come far in spite of many languages and cultures.

Why so upset by small changes in sentences in the family use of language? I think the human brain is designed to understand many variations in the expression.

Audrey (which these days looks Mexican telenovelas to improve their understanding Spanish.)

 

[Purron]

As far as I know, we're neither elites or dregs here....

Nope, just lumpen slum dwellers.

This reminded me how I've noticed the term "lumpen slum" bandied about recently. It's a rather recent addition to the ER forum vocabulary. I did a search and found a definition here:

http://www.early-retirement.org/for...nlightenment-as-to-er-48104-3.html#post929113

 

[audreyh1]

Audrey meant to say approximately:

The destruction of the Tower of Babel by God had the intention of limiting the ability of humans to communicate with each other. Nevertheless, human civilization has come far in spite of many languages and different cultures.

Why be so upset by small changes in phrases in the colloquial use of language? I believe the human brain is designed to understand many variations in expression.

Audrey (who these days watches Mexican soap operas to improve her Spanish comprehension.)

But I must say that Google translation captured the heart of the message.

I've been doing a lot in another language recently, so the OP rant on communication today struck me as particularly funny since the differences frustrating him seem so minor compared to bridging between different languages which humans achieve all the time!

I guess the problem is that Google doesn't translate "english to english", although you certainly can get a lot of help interpreting the "elite lingo", and, who knows, maybe slang as well.

All language developed through human experimentation IMO. Seems like we should be able to handle minor variations. Yes, it's easier if someone speaks exactly the way you think, but why would you ever expect that?

Audrey

 

[IndependentlyPoor]

"Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra."

"Shaka, when the walls fell."

"Temba, his arms wide!"

Infinite geek points!

 

[Purron]

Infinite geek points!

I feel like I'm at a Star Trek Convention....

YouTube - Star Trek Trivia - Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra.

 

[Gumby]

Audrey meant to say approximately:



But I must say that Google translation captured the heart of the message.

I've been doing a lot in another language recently, so the OP rant on communication today struck me as particularly funny since the differences frustrating him seem so minor compared to bridging between different languages which humans achieve all the time!

I guess the problem is that Google doesn't translate "english to english", although you certainly can get a lot of help interpreting the "elite lingo", and, who knows, maybe slang as well.

All language developed through human experimentation IMO. Seems like we should be able to handle minor variations. Yes, it's easier if someone speaks exactly the way you think, but why would you ever expect that?

Audrey

But Pete does have a valid point. Language can be used either to enlighten or to confuse. I have been a military officer, an engineer and a lawyer. All three professions tend to use jargon, obscure acronyms, arcane phrases and other "terms of art" to communicate with others in the profession. That does two principal things. First, it reinforces group identity by members of the profession, because those inside the group have knowledge and a language unknown to the general public. Second, it sends the message to those outside the group that "we are the experts here. No need for you to question what we are doing. You wouldn't understand the explanation anyway."

I share Pete's belief that much of the language used in the structured finance world was deliberately designed to obscure and confuse.

To quote what has been described as an ancient Chinese proverb

"Wisdom begins with calling a thing by its proper name."

 

[Amethyst]

I always assumed "lumpen proletariat" meant something on the order of frumpy, dumpy riff-raff, which certainly fit the context of whatever I was reading at the time

Amethyst (occasional wearer of trailer-park trinkets)

Nope, just lumpen slum dwellers.

This reminded me how I've noticed the term "lumpen slum" bandied about recently. It's a rather recent addition to the ER forum vocabulary. I did a search and found a definition here:

http://www.early-retirement.org/for...nlightenment-as-to-er-48104-3.html#post929113

 

[antmary]

My favorite perversion of the English language is the term "I mis-remembered," instead of saying "I lied."

 

[dex]

Seriously people,
Have we forgotten George Orwell's 1984? You control the words; you control the thoughts and by extension the action.

Read the book or rent the movie.

What the OP mentioned is not new. A simple one was the change of the War Department to the Dept. of Defense. Why? Most people can support defense but not war.

Newspeak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
To control thought

“ By 2050—earlier, probably—all real knowledge of Oldspeak will have disappeared. The whole literature of the past will have been destroyed. Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, Byron—they'll exist only in Newspeak versions, not merely changed into something different, but actually contradictory of what they used to be. Even the literature of the Party will change. Even the slogans will change. How could you have a slogan like "freedom is slavery" when the concept of freedom has been abolished? The whole climate of thought will be different. In fact there will be no thought, as we understand it now. Orthodoxy means not thinking—not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.[4]

 

[RonBoyd]

... to communicate with others in the profession. That does two principal things. First, it reinforces group identity by members of the profession, because those inside the group have knowledge and a language unknown to the general public. Second, it sends the message to those outside the group that "we are the experts here. No need for you to question what we are doing. You wouldn't understand the explanation anyway."

Sounds like every teenager since... well, in my lifetime anyway.

 

[Janet H]

Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying. Is there a question or a message in there somewhere?*

* Where the heck is that sarcasm smilie...

YouTube - Meh

 

[haha]

I always assumed "lumpen proletariat" meant something on the order of frumpy, dumpy riff-raff, which certainly fit the context of whatever I was reading at the time

Amethyst (occasional wearer of trailer-park trinkets)

The term may have become widely known when it was used by Marx and Engels. There was a strong value judgment in it. In their use these people were not just poor and ill educated, they were also inclined toward criminality and other bad behaviors. M&E saw them mainly as a group that would not be a wellspring of revolution, but a handy and easily easily manipulated collection of dregs.

Ha

 

[NW-Bound]

... handy and easily easily manipulated collection of dregs...

Certainly not this present rowdy "lumpen" crowd. Any poster coming here with Machiavellian intents would quickly withdraw in a humiliating retreat.

 

[harley]

I don't see the problem. Just read the book.

YouTube - In Living Color - Booked on Phonics

 

[RonBoyd]

"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.” --George Bernard Shaw