Dirty electricity

[SumDay]

Just when you think you've heard of everything.

We have been using an IT guy for computer & TV issues in our home for the past ~5 years. He's good, very reasonable, and I trust him.

He was here last week to help me with a Windows 8 wireless printer issue (that's a whole other story ) and I mentioned to him that Comcast had just been here to install a new router, as ours was going out. He looked at me funny, and said "do you realize this is about your 5th router since I've been coming here?" I didn't. I asked him what could cause them to fail so quickly, and he said "dirty electricity". DH and I rolled our eyes and went on with the issue at hand.

Today, I'm in the kitchen (which is on the same corner of the house as the router), and the fluorescent light starts flickering, and I tell DH. He curses, and says he replaces those suckers about every 6 months, which seems pretty frequent for a fluorescent.

We looked at one another and said at the same time "Dirty electricity"?

Our TVs and sound systems are all on surge protection strips because we had a lightning strike years ago which was very expensive. So, we don't seem to have issues with those, but this one area of the house seems to burn up routers and fluorescent tubes.

Are we nuts? And who would you call to have this addressed? My father (now deceased) was an electrician, and if someone had called & told him this story, he'd have hung up on them.

I did find this but this doesn't seem like it would be helpful for a kitchen ceiling light fixture, just for something that plugs in at the wall.

Signed,

Crazy

 

[Walt34]

There is such a thing as "dirty electricity". What it means is that the electric supply to your house (or business) is not as stable as it should be. The current has spikes and lows, and is not a smooth sine wave as it would be in a perfect world. It has been causing computers problems for decades and large data centers install equipment to "smooth out" the sine wave.

It can be caused by old wiring, tree branches contacting overhead lines, a large elevator motor in an industrial plant or perhaps an apartment building if you live in one. Very often the exact cause is hard to pin down and drives engineers to pull out what hair they have remaining. RV'rs have to sometimes deal with it too as the wiring in RV campgrounds is not always kept up to date or given the best maintenance.

You can buy the equipment to deal with it for a residence. It isn't exactly cheap but it won't break you either. I'm guessing in $500 range, installed by an electrician.

 

[jimnjana]

You may want to contact neighbors to see if they are experiencing same. Together approach the power company to update service lines.

 

[bondi688]

Dirty electricity is reserved for computers that people used to surf for porn.

 

[rbmrtn]

I guess the "greens" have distorted the original meaning to having something to do with pollution. Those greenwave filters are for reducing EMF pollution.

What you have is unstable frequency on your electrical signal. You could bad house wiring, overloaded circuits. Yes five routers in that short of time is way to many, something is killing them. You can get a power conditioning UPS to use with your computer equipment that will help. An electrician can probably scope it out to see if it something inside ( grounding, breaker panel issue ) or if it coming from the power company.

 

[imoldernu]

ohmic heating or thermal noise?

 

[ls99]

Dranetz. A well established name in the power line monitoring equipment.

There are places that rent thes machines, and will give an excrutiatingly detailed printout of the pwer line gremlins.

A cheaper version is APC a UPS which has software with it. Wil give a good overview of sags, hits, etc.

A quicker solution (operative word: solution) might be to call the power company who bills you and transports the electricity.

Often the meter box connections are crappy. Break the seal, tighten the connections. No not you, the power company folks. The power company will often help out by putting the aforementioned Dranetz on your line for a few days to identify the problem, Call them.

 

[F4mandolin]

Dirty electricity is reserved for computers that people used to surf for porn.

Uh oh...I better get a couple surge protectors then......

 

[Dimsumkid]

About 5 yrs ago, I had Com Edison come out to install an AC throttling monitor. About 1 month later, the AC was try to start and wouldn't turn on. Called my AC guy and he found the 2nd 110 v line was connected w/cheap wire nuts and wasn't getting power. This shoddy work was done by the electric company! So it could be something as simple as cheap wire nuts causing the problem.

 

[meierlde]

One question how far along the line from the substation to the end of the distribution line are you located. Second if the line is above ground do you see many capacitors hanging from the poles nearby (these would be cans with two high voltage lines out the top and no low voltage lines from the side.). As noted the issue could be that there are some large motors nearby which affect the power factor on the line. (This is because voltage over a coil of wire lags voltage over a resistor by 90%) With modern switching power supplies and the like power factor problems could make power supplies work harder and fail. You might ask the electric utility if they can measure the power factor on your lines, or bring in an electrician who should have such devices. By any chance is the area where the problem near (electrically) where an outdoor AC unit might be?

 

[UtahSkier]

Bad electricity...

Years ago I purchased a plasma TV. Spending good money on a TV had me wanting a perfect picture. I kept noticing that the image had some kind of ghosting noise whenever the image was dark or black. After ruling out my equipment, I called the cable TV company and their tech looked things over and concluded I had "bad electricity" and that I should call the power company.

A week or so later, the power company guy comes over in the late afternoon and starts looking around. At some point he turns off the power and says I have a dangerous situation involving my house and 4 neighbors. They had a utility repair truck out that afternoon/evening and dug some holes to get to the underground lines to fix the problem.

I don't remember the details, but the problem was something about a floating ground. The proper ground connection had failed (was failing) and so the home's electrical protections were not functioning. All 5 homes had electrocution potential. I knew it was serious given the quick arrival of the repair crew.

I was amazed that something so minor (bad TV image) was the only symptom of a serious problem.

 

[bld999]

Bad electricity...

Years ago I purchased a plasma TV. Spending good money on a TV had me wanting a perfect picture. I kept noticing that the image had some kind of ghosting noise whenever the image was dark or black. After ruling out my equipment, I called the cable TV company and their tech looked things over and concluded I had "bad electricity" and that I should call the power company.

A week or so later, the power company guy comes over in the late afternoon and starts looking around. At some point he turns off the power and says I have a dangerous situation involving my house and 4 neighbors. They had a utility repair truck out that afternoon/evening and dug some holes to get to the underground lines to fix the problem.

I don't remember the details, but the problem was something about a floating ground. The proper ground connection had failed (was failing) and so the home's electrical protections were not functioning. All 5 homes had electrocution potential. I knew it was serious given the quick arrival of the repair crew.

I was amazed that something so minor (bad TV image) was the only symptom of a serious problem.

Underground feeders, esp. direct burial, don't work trouble-free forever.

 

[Larro Darro]

You hear about dogs and people without shoes getting shocked on the storm grates in big cities all the time. Some of the electrical equipment is very old. [after all, Muddy Waters invented electricity]

All of the above post have good info. But for now, just move your router out of the kitchen. Plug it into the TV's surge protection.

 

[FreeAtLast]

We had a problem years ago where power would flicker in the afternoon.
DW got in touch with managers and finally a VP at the power company and they finally admitted there was a problem with an aging trunk line at a substation. They told us that they would replace it and the problem went away.

 

[brett]

I was in the computer services business for many years.

We regularly used a Dranetz unit to determine if the line was 'clean', ie if the power was good. More often than not it was not in a large urban area. We would monitor the power for a week, two weeks, whatever was needed to catch/record any irregularities.

Poor power can indeed cause issues for computer systems. We used this to prove that excessive computer downtime or communication issue were caused by the power and not the responsibility of the computer vendor.

Not certain about home appliances, lights, etc. though.

 

[H2ODude]

DS in Tanzania has units on all his electrical appliance to clean it up. Otherwise nothing would last. Also has battery backup and inverter for the 1-2 times a day it just...goes off.

 

[SumDay]

Thanks everyone for the input - lots of knowledge on this board!

Thought I'd close the loop on this one: I just got off the phone with our power company. He didn't laugh at me when I told him the story. They are sending out someone to run tests on our lines (which are buried in our yard, but lines leading up aren't).

Next, I can have them install a surge protector at the meter. The charge is $5 a month. There's a series of lights that indicate if it's active & working properly, so each month when the meter is read, they will look at the SP to make sure it's doing its job. If it isn't, they replace it. And there is an insurance policy through the manufacturer if it fails and we suffer a loss. Sounds almost too good to be true.

Even if we do have this installed, he suggested we still use a UPS with our more delicate equipment like TV's, sound systems, computer, ROUTERS, etc.

Anyway, I'll report back if anything worth sharing happens.

Again, thanks!

 

[NW-Bound]

I lost two PC motherboards due to spikes from the bathroom vent fan motor when the latter was switched off. Actually, the MBs were still working but their audio outputs were dead.

Connected to the audio output was an amplified speaker with its own AC adapter. Both the AC adapter and the PC were plugged into a surge suppressor. The surge suppressor was plugged into an outlet that was on the same circuit as the bathroom fan.

I should have taken it seriously when I kept hearing a "pop" coming from the speakers when the bathroom fan was turned off. Even being an electrical/electronic engineer, I did not take it seriously until the 2nd MB died! Then, I figured out that the spikes went through the suppressor, then the AC adapter of the external speaker, and got to zap the MB audio output.

 

[GrayHare]

Next, I can have them install a surge protector at the meter. The charge is $5 a month. There's a series of lights that indicate if it's active & working properly, so each month when the meter is read, they will look at the SP to make sure it's doing its job. If it isn't, they replace it. And there is an insurance policy through the manufacturer if it fails and we suffer a loss. Sounds almost too good to be true.

Ordinary surge protectors catch only what is far out of norm. If you have regular but small voltage blips, the surge protector will send them through. The same is true of typical UPS units. To seriously clean dirty electricity you need a power conditioner, which usually is more expensive and noisy.

 

[ls99]

I would not rent a surge protector, don't let them install it. If you really want one, buy one at the big box hardware stores. Instructions for install ere included. Even paying electrician to install is cheaper in long run.

As noted by Gray Hare they only catch gross stuff. Let the power co clean up their problems first.

By the way surges are not as much of a problem as sags of line voltage. Them's the stuff that fries electric motors, fridge compressors etc..

 

[westom]

Next, I can have them install a surge protector at the meter. The charge is $5 a month. There's a series of lights that indicate if it's active & working properly, so each month when the meter is read, they will look at the SP to make sure it's doing its job. If it isn't, they replace it.

Let's update some facts. 'Dirty electricity' is a term often used by scam artists to sell miracle boxes. Nothing averts all anomalies (all 'dirty'). So you must first define 'dirty'.

For example, do incandescent lamps dim or brighten especially when a major appliance power cycles? That voltage variation must not happen. Often indicate a minor wiring problem (ie a loose connection). But sometimes indicates a serious human safety threat. The incandescent bulb is superb for defining that one type of 'dirty electricity'.

Meanwhile, ideal power for all electronics is even when the bulb dims to less than 50% intensity. Because existing and standard protection from that 'dirt' is so robust.

Another is noise. Do all AV appliances make noise when some other appliance power cycles? Many will recommend filters or a UPS. Nonsense. The solution is to get that one defective appliance fixed.

Another may be an intermittently tripping GFCI. That 'dirt' is an appliance leaking too much current. Find and fix the offending appliance.

Blackouts are another 'dirt'. These are addressed by a UPS. The UPS only provides temporary and 'dirty' power during a blackout. How 'dirty'? Well, a utility provides an application note that demonstrates power from a UPS when in battery backup mode:
Tech Tip 03 -Duke Energy
Is that 'dirt' a problem? Of course not. Because electronic appliances are so robust as to make that 'dirt' (and many other anomalies) irrelevant. However that same UPS output may be harmful to motorized appliances and power strip protectors.

How long do your incandescent bulbs last? A slight increase in line voltage (120 VAC running at 127 VAC) can reduce light bulb life expectancy by one half. However that same voltage remains ideal for all electronics. Another example of 'dirt' that can adversely affect some devices (ie bulbs) while made completely irrelevant by protection already inside other devices (ie electronics).

In your case, I would suspect a bad earth ground. Not the safety ground found in wall receptacles. All incoming utiility wires (AC electric, phone, cable) must first connect to the same earthing electrode before entering. Many linemen cannot be bothered (especially satellite dish installers). Only you are responsible for that earth ground. Best to inspect it yourself.

Follow a quarter inch thick, bare copper wire from the breaker box to the electrode that must be outside in earth. If that does not exist, then either you or your agent (ie electrician) must upgrade / install that earth ground. A missing (floating) ground can create 'dirt' especially on appliances that share two utility wires (ie modem shares AC electric and phone / cable). This one is totally on you to fix.

So what makes the 'whole house' protector so effective? The lights do not report all protector failures. Light only reports when the protector was grossly undersized - a type of failure that must never exist. Even many electricians do not know this. The light says the protector was so grossly undersized as to disconnect as fast as possible - to avert a house fire. That same light is also on power strip protectors that are routinely undersized.

What makes that protector so effective is what you are responsible for - single point earth ground. So, if you follow the bare copper wire and find no earthing electrode (or only find a water pipe), then that protector still will not protect from the 'dirt' that concerns you.

Surges that do damage must connect low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth ground - an electrode. If that connection is too long, has sharp wire bends, or does not share the earth ground with all other incoming utilities, then that 'dirt' is not averted. The same missing earth ground that could explain blown modems and fluorescent lamps would also make that utility rented 'whole house' protector ineffective.

Plenty of suggestions to inspect or ask so as to eliminate 'dirty' electricity. No magic box will address all or even most. Each 'dirt' is solved by specific solution only for that anomaly.

You are strongly advised to earth a 'whole house' protector. The utility offer one for $5 monthly. Or earth one from other manufacturers that costs about $1 per protected appliance. Not just install; it must be earthed. Even the refrigerator and bathroom GFCIs need that solution so that rare transients (maybe once every seven years) do not cause future failures.

 

[ratto]

In your case, I would suspect a bad earth ground. Not the safety ground found in wall receptacles. All incoming utiility wires (AC electric, phone, cable) must first connect to the same earthing electrode before entering. Many linemen cannot be bothered (especially satellite dish installers). Only you are responsible for that earth ground. Best to inspect it yourself.

+1. Unreliable grounding rod connection can introduce "hot" spots in your wiring system. Normally, the AC current supply from the utility company should be pretty good in terms of voltage stability and waveform purity.

 

[travelover]

Sometimes it is as simple as opening up the electrical box and tightening all the connections. They do loosen over time. Wear the extra thick rubber gloves.

 

[NW-Bound]

Talk about loose connections, my daughter recently told me about the light flickering in her townhome. Not good, I said, and I immediately went there to see for myself.

She turned on the dining room chandelier, then proceeded to open the refrigerator to show me that the additional electric draw of the fridge light caused the chandelier light flicker. Holy Cow!

I went to outside to open the electric box, expecting a bad breaker. Good Lord!

The townhome does not have the electric demand of a single home, so the electric box was different than any I have had. The meter outlet was connected to a subpanel by #6 AWG wire, and it was aluminum. Since it was upstream of the main breaker, there was nothing I could do without having electric turn off. I could not even get access to the wire connections at the meter terminals. Its case would have to be removed after a seal was broken. Heat could have weakened its terminals already. The loose connections at the meter outlet and the main breaker already charred the insulation, and started to melt the contacts of the main breaker. Holly Molly!

So, I switched off the water heater, and advised my daughter she should not turn anything on, and to hope that the fridge would be able to run until an electrician came. He would have to coordinate with the electric company to remove the meter to allow for repair. If it weren't for that, I would be able to replace those aluminum wires myself. It ended up costing her $500.

Recently, I added a 30A outlet for my parked motorhome. The next day, I lost power to a couple of inside outlets. Hmmm... When I was at the panel, I already tightened all the other breaker connections as a maintenance measure, so what would be the problem?

Turned out that I had disturbed a couple of breakers which had their contacts already weakened. Their clamp contacts grabbed the power bar, and metal fatigue and heat had weakened the clamp force (they are 26 year old). A few bucks at Home Depot, and everything was good as new.