Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Fighting the Urge to Splurge
Old 01-21-2009, 10:30 PM   #1
Full time employment: Posting here.
ProspectiveBum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 667
Fighting the Urge to Splurge

Lately, I've found myself lusting after a new (to me) car. Cars are a life-long interest of mine, and I've spent many an hour reading car magazines and surfing online car forums. In the last week, I became aware of a used car at a lot near me. It's an older model of a high-end car that I've long lusted after. I haven't driven it yet, mostly because I'm afraid the temptation to buy it on the spot would be too great.

There are a number of practical reasons for me NOT to buy this car: my current vehicle is getting a little old (almost 9 years old), but in the last few years I've paid for extensive maintenance on it that should allow it to easily run another 5-8 years without further significant investment. This "new" vehicle is an unknown maintenance-wise, and is a European brand that will likely be more expensive to maintain and insure. My current car (an SUV) suits my needs in that my kids fit in it, and I occasionally use it for light off-roading and desert exploration.

The difference between what I'd pay for the "new" car and what I could sell my old car is probably around $4k. Given the current economy, dropping $4k on a non-essential seems like a foolhardy move.

Those are all very rational reasons to forget about my object d' lust, and soldier on with my current ride. But I can't let it go. I keep daydreaming about this new toy, and how much I'd enjoy it.

Does anybody else suffer this affliction (doesn't need to be cars, obviously)? How do you handle the irrational desire for [whatever]?
__________________

__________________
I can't complain, but sometimes I still do.
- Joe Walsh
ProspectiveBum is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 01-21-2009, 10:50 PM   #2
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,423
Is your job secure? How much is that $4k in terms of your net worth?

Cars are just transportation to me, but I have spent a lot more than that for foreign travels over the last few years. I have no immediate plan for foreign travel now, not because the expense really puts a dent (I lose or gain 2 to 5 trip worths a day), but because I would not feel good doing it now. If it brings my wife and myself happiness, I would.

So, if that car brings you happiness, and you feel reasonably safe with your job, then go for it.

By the way, the $4K seems low as a difference between new and old cars.
__________________

__________________
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Fighting the Urge to Splurge
Old 01-21-2009, 10:55 PM   #3
Full time employment: Posting here.
Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 781
Fighting the Urge to Splurge

Yes - I can relate. For some reason I've always dreamed of owning a BMW 3 Series. Until recently I could have easily afforded the car but just couldn't justify - same reasons you outlined ( I was laid off on 12/31/08). Side note: I lost about 85k in my IRA in November - I couldn't help but think about the brand new BMW 335i I could have bought with that money! Sigh
__________________
Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 11:33 PM   #4
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 11,044
We are usually pretty frugal, but once in a blue moon, we dream of something big.

For my wife, it's a very expensive watch. She has dreamt of that watch for 10 years and last week I finally bought it for her. But I didn't buy it new. Given the state of the economy, I took advantage of the fact that lots of people are desperate to raise money by getting rid of their stuff. So I was browsing the offerings at an estate (second-hand) jeweler and happened to find the exact watch my wife had been lusting after for years. It was only 1 year old, looked like it had never been worn and worked perfectly. I dropped $4.5K for the watch, about half the price I would have paid in a regular jewelry store. For a while I felt guilty to spend that kind of money in the midst of a recession, but what the heck, when am I going to find another deal like that? Plus it's not like we can't afford it. I also like the fact that those watches hold their value pretty well and can easily be resold in a pinch.

As for me, I want a new couch. Ours is 30 years old and it is getting to be very uncomfortable. I reupholstered it myself 8 years ago (changed everything except the frame and springs), but I think that it's time for something new...
__________________
FIREd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2009, 07:11 AM   #5
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
RonBoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 5,280
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProspectiveBum View Post
Does anybody else suffer this affliction (doesn't need to be cars, obviously)? How do you handle the irrational desire for [whatever]?
Warning Will Robinson!! This could happen to you:

The collection consists of all Chevy Convertibles
__________________
"It's tough to make predictions, especially when it involves the future." ~Attributed to many
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is." ~(perhaps by) Yogi Berra
"Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge."~ Lau tzu
RonBoyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2009, 07:27 AM   #6
Administrator
W2R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 38,893
Sometimes it helps to think of time and money as being the same thing. How much earlier could you retire if you had that money? Maybe not at all, but maybe several months.

I know you didn't ask for this... but sometimes I have found that if I can identify what I truly want, and buy THAT (rather than a million little consolation prizes for myself), I end up spending less overall because I am happy and satisfied.
__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities.

- - H. Melville, 1851
W2R is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2009, 07:44 AM   #7
Full time employment: Posting here.
cantlogin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pocono Mtns.
Posts: 884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Want2retire View Post
Sometimes it helps to think of time and money as being the same thing. How much earlier could you retire if you had that money? Maybe not at all, but maybe several months.

I know you didn't ask for this... but sometimes I have found that if I can identify what I truly want, and buy THAT (rather than a million little consolation prizes for myself), I end up spending less overall because I am happy and satisfied.
That approach works perfectly for me. Since accepting the fact that I can't afford to buy everything in the world I compare the cost of what I'm considering to the cost of other things including investments and stress reducing cash balances. When I make my choices this way I ALLWAYS get what I want the most and I never feel as though I'm depriving myself of anything.

I too have a weakness for stuff with wheels and include the future residual value of these things when calculating their actual life cycle cost. If at some future date you can sell your desired replacement vehicle for $4,000 more than your current SUV your net cost is nil. I know this ignores opportunity and maintenance costs but it does represent a factor to consider.
__________________
cantlogin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2009, 08:11 AM   #8
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Moemg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sarasota,fl.
Posts: 10,035
I had been lusting over a GPS . I am directionally challenged and have been known to get lost driving around the block but being frugal I just travel with maps . Well my SO just surprised me with one for my birthday . So now I can turn my lusting elsewhere .
__________________
Moemg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2009, 08:12 AM   #9
Moderator
Walt34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Eastern WV Panhandle
Posts: 16,540
More power to you if you can resist. I succumbed to temptation.

It started out when I got the job last summer that is 3.4 miles away. So I thought maybe a 50cc scooter would be a good commuting vehicle. But for about a 1-mile portion of the commute I need 50 mph uphill, otherwise I'd get run over and a 50 cc engine can't do that. Then I started thinking about a 250 cc Honda motorcycle but they weren't discounting them when gasoline was $4/gallon, and I noticed a 650 Suzuki was only a grand more.

But down the row of motorcycles from the 650 was this beautiful dressed-out Suzuki C90T (1462 cc) touring motorcycle that was heavily discounted.

Agonizing over it for months, and searching E-bay and Craigslist during that time, I bought it a couple of days after Christmas. So now I have this motorcycle that can probably climb 45 degree hills at 90 mph with two very large people on it.

I think that's how rationalization works.
__________________
I heard the call to do nothing. So I answered it.
Walt34 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2009, 09:00 AM   #10
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,612
I've had that lust from time to time. But as long as my paycheck is a single point of household financial failure in a terrible job market, I have the opposite problem; I have to fight the urge to be an extreme miser and squirrel away every extra cent we have to our name. There's still a little living to be done today.

But I do tend (as mentioned above) to think of large purchases in terms of the amount of extra time I would *have* to work in order to pay for it.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2009, 11:28 AM   #11
Full time employment: Posting here.
ProspectiveBum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 667
Thanks for the feedback, everbody! Comments below...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
Is your job secure? How much is that $4k in terms of your net worth?

Cars are just transportation to me, but I have spent a lot more than that for foreign travels over the last few years. I have no immediate plan for foreign travel now, not because the expense really puts a dent (I lose or gain 2 to 5 trip worths a day), but because I would not feel good doing it now. If it brings my wife and myself happiness, I would.

So, if that car brings you happiness, and you feel reasonably safe with your job, then go for it.

By the way, the $4K seems low as a difference between new and old cars.
You enabler, you! You're right, the $4k difference isn't much in the grand scheme of things. Part of the reason for the low cost difference is that this "new" car is actually a year older than my current SUV. If it weren't for the fact that this vehicle will need to get me to work, and my kids to school, I'd probably just pull the trigger without fretting over it as much. It's knowing in the back of my mind that the future repair and maintenance costs on this are totally unknown, and could be very high that is giving me pause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog View Post
Yes - I can relate. For some reason I've always dreamed of owning a BMW 3 Series. Until recently I could have easily afforded the car but just couldn't justify - same reasons you outlined ( I was laid off on 12/31/08). Side note: I lost about 85k in my IRA in November - I couldn't help but think about the brand new BMW 335i I could have bought with that money! Sigh
Sorry to hear about your job loss, that sucks. The car I'm interested in is also a BMW, a 540i. I don't care about the prestige factor, but the car magazines all make BMWs out to be God's own chariot, and Lord knows I love driving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FIREdreamer View Post
We are usually pretty frugal, but once in a blue moon, we dream of something big.

For my wife, it's a very expensive watch. She has dreamt of that watch for 10 years and last week I finally bought it for her. But I didn't buy it new. Given the state of the economy, I took advantage of the fact that lots of people are desperate to raise money by getting rid of their stuff. So I was browsing the offerings at an estate (second-hand) jeweler and happened to find the exact watch my wife had been lusting after for years. It was only 1 year old, looked like it had never been worn and worked perfectly. I dropped $4.5K for the watch, about half the price I would have paid in a regular jewelry store. For a while I felt guilty to spend that kind of money in the midst of a recession, but what the heck, when am I going to find another deal like that? Plus it's not like we can't afford it. I also like the fact that those watches hold their value pretty well and can easily be resold in a pinch.

As for me, I want a new couch. Ours is 30 years old and it is getting to be very uncomfortable. I reupholstered it myself 8 years ago (changed everything except the frame and springs), but I think that it's time for something new...
Good point on the resale value of the watch, I'm sure that made it easier. Just thinking about it, I realize that if this was something my wife wanted, I wouldn't even bat an eye. Funny how sometimes we torture ourselves over things that we'd gladly give to someone else.

As for the couch, that doesn't sound like a splurge to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonBoyd View Post
Warning Will Robinson!! This could happen to you:

The collection consists of all Chevy Convertibles
Wow, that was amazing. That gentleman must have an unholy amount of money tied up in those beauties. Not an option for me; I'm pretty sure my wife would be loooooong gone before it ever got to that point!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Want2retire View Post
Sometimes it helps to think of time and money as being the same thing. How much earlier could you retire if you had that money? Maybe not at all, but maybe several months.

I know you didn't ask for this... but sometimes I have found that if I can identify what I truly want, and buy THAT (rather than a million little consolation prizes for myself), I end up spending less overall because I am happy and satisfied.
That's a good idea. I'll have to chew on that question (what do I *really* want) a little.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cantlogin View Post
That approach works perfectly for me. Since accepting the fact that I can't afford to buy everything in the world I compare the cost of what I'm considering to the cost of other things including investments and stress reducing cash balances. When I make my choices this way I ALLWAYS get what I want the most and I never feel as though I'm depriving myself of anything.

I too have a weakness for stuff with wheels and include the future residual value of these things when calculating their actual life cycle cost. If at some future date you can sell your desired replacement vehicle for $4,000 more than your current SUV your net cost is nil. I know this ignores opportunity and maintenance costs but it does represent a factor to consider.
Good point, I should factor the residual value into my cost/benefit analysis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moemg View Post
I had been lusting over a GPS . I am directionally challenged and have been known to get lost driving around the block but being frugal I just travel with maps . Well my SO just surprised me with one for my birthday . So now I can turn my lusting elsewhere .
I'll bet your SO has some ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt34 View Post
More power to you if you can resist. I succumbed to temptation.

It started out when I got the job last summer that is 3.4 miles away. So I thought maybe a 50cc scooter would be a good commuting vehicle. But for about a 1-mile portion of the commute I need 50 mph uphill, otherwise I'd get run over and a 50 cc engine can't do that. Then I started thinking about a 250 cc Honda motorcycle but they weren't discounting them when gasoline was $4/gallon, and I noticed a 650 Suzuki was only a grand more.

But down the row of motorcycles from the 650 was this beautiful dressed-out Suzuki C90T (1462 cc) touring motorcycle that was heavily discounted.

Agonizing over it for months, and searching E-bay and Craigslist during that time, I bought it a couple of days after Christmas. So now I have this motorcycle that can probably climb 45 degree hills at 90 mph with two very large people on it.

I think that's how rationalization works.
So, you're saying I should aim higher with my purchase? Hmm, a new M5 would be nice... Are you at least enjoying your new toy? Any buyer's remorse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
I've had that lust from time to time. But as long as my paycheck is a single point of household financial failure in a terrible job market, I have the opposite problem; I have to fight the urge to be an extreme miser and squirrel away every extra cent we have to our name. There's still a little living to be done today.

But I do tend (as mentioned above) to think of large purchases in terms of the amount of extra time I would *have* to work in order to pay for it.
"There's still a little living to be done today". I'm definitely not a miser, but this phrase, or some variation of it, is usually how I start rationalizing a purchase like this.

I've read "Your Money or Your Life", and do try to think of large purchases in terms of hours spent working. Part of my issue there is that my time horizon for retirement is so far off (15+ years) that a month or two doesn't seem like a big deal. Those do add up, of course.

Thanks again, everybody!
__________________
I can't complain, but sometimes I still do.
- Joe Walsh
ProspectiveBum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2009, 01:11 PM   #12
Moderator Emeritus
CuppaJoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: At The Cafe
Posts: 6,866
Since I retired and can now stroll the neighborhood at mid-day, Iím developing an interest in the cars parked around here. Some guy seemed to have two of these, but now I think he is a repairman. The other one is yellow. Which comes first, interest or lust? Good luck, Bum, there's a lot of temptation out there.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_4012.jpg (390.3 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_4013.jpg (528.5 KB, 5 views)
__________________
CuppaJoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2009, 01:59 PM   #13
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,423
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProspectiveBum View Post
...
It's knowing in the back of my mind that the future repair and maintenance costs on this are totally unknown, and could be very high that is giving me pause.
...
Here's something to ease your conscience: learn to do car repair yourself. Search for "car repair" and "grease monkey" in this forum.

Seriously, car repair aside, if you are really that lusty over this car, and once you have it, have no other immediate desires, then I would say to go ahead.

Several things can happen.

One, you buy it and it is just like what you expected. You are so happy with it that, if necessary, you don't even mind cutting back on other leisure expenses to make up for it. Then, it's money very well spent.

Two, you buy it, and it turns out all that German engineering is all hype. Then you should be glad that it only costs $4K, and you did not spring for a new one. I would say it's worth $4K to experience it, since you wanted it so much. I wouldn't regret it. Not every thing in life can work out the way you plan. This disappointment is still fairly cheap.

Three, you buy it, and find out it is good, but not good enough. Now, you want something else. Now, that would be tragedy.

It's OK to splurge, as long as one does not make a habit of it.

Again, I myself have no desire for fancy cars. As mentioned, we love to travel. Some people say travel expenses leave no tangible results, other than some photos and videos. Oh, but travel lovers know better than that. I know that no matter what happens to me financially in the future, I will never regret money spent on that trip to Sorrento, the place that I got lured to by a song of the same name. I will not, on my deathbed, regret not having done something that would bring so much pleasure for so little money.
__________________
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2009, 02:34 PM   #14
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,385
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moemg View Post
I had been lusting over a GPS . I am directionally challenged and have been known to get lost driving around the block but being frugal I just travel with maps . Well my SO just surprised me with one for my birthday . So now I can turn my lusting elsewhere .
SO better take his vitamins.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2009, 07:04 PM   #15
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
freebird5825's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: East Nowhere, 43N Latitude, NY
Posts: 9,017
I paid cash for this baby in 2005. It was an early 50th birthday present, bought at age 46.
I needed to cheer myself up big time.

Need I say more?

disclaimer - this is not my neighborhood.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg mustang.jpg (4.0 KB, 143 views)
__________________
"All our dreams can come true, if we have the courage to pursue them." - Walt Disney
freebird5825 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2009, 08:24 PM   #16
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
TromboneAl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 11,199
This reminds me of a thread over on the bike forum. A guy asks "Should I stick with my current bike or buy Model X (which costs $3,000)?"

Responses are overwhelmingly: "Yes, buy the bike. You deserve it. Go for it."

Not sure this is the best way to make the decision.
__________________
Al
TromboneAl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2009, 09:21 PM   #17
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,423
That would be irrational splurging. I would not pay $3K for something that does not have a motor.
__________________
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2009, 09:33 PM   #18
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
BunsGettingFirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,502
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
That would be irrational splurging. I would not pay $3K for something that does not have a motor.
I certainly hope you didn't skip the wedding ring for the Mrs.

As for bikes, for those who ride a lot, it's a combination of tinkering, exercising, and socializing. It becomes a way of life because how much time it takes to maintain yourself and your equipment in tip-top shape. After a while, you're so used to seeing $3000-$5000 bicycles that your $1500 bike looks like something from the Salvation Army. As far as addictions go though, it's probably one of the better ones.
__________________
BunsGettingFirm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2009, 09:47 PM   #19
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,423
Quote:
Originally Posted by BunsGettingFirm View Post
I certainly hope you didn't skip the wedding ring for the Mrs. .
Maybe I spent $2999. It's been a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BunsGettingFirm View Post
As for bikes, for those who ride a lot, it's a combination of tinkering, exercising, and socializing. It becomes a way of life because how much time it takes to maintain yourself and your equipment in tip-top shape. After a while, you're so used to seeing $3000-$5000 bicycles that your $1500 bike looks like something from the Salvation Army. As far as addictions go though, it's probably one of the better ones.
I will admit that I do not appreciate these bikes enough to see that a $5000 bike is worth that much more than a $500 bike. But hey, my philosophy has always been that if it is worth that much to you, and if it brings you pleasure year in year out, then why not?

What I find dumb are people who spend money on expensive stuff just because of peer pressure, or to acquire status symbols without really knowing to enjoy and appreciate their purchase.

Example: I have a couple of brother in laws who spent quite a bit of money on their stereo. But the truth is they are tone deaf. One asked me if wiring speakers to the wrong polarity would blow them up. I said "no, it only affects the phasing of the sound". I told them to experiment, to wire one out of phase with the other, and then test listen. They should be able to hear the difference, particularly in the bass. They could not hear a darn difference. What's the point of spending that money, let me ask you? They did it just because...
__________________
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2009, 07:36 AM   #20
Moderator
Walt34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Eastern WV Panhandle
Posts: 16,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProspectiveBum View Post

So, you're saying I should aim higher with my purchase? Hmm, a new M5 would be nice... Are you at least enjoying your new toy? Any buyer's remorse?
Not a bit of remorse. I am thoroughly enjoying it on the few warmish days we've had so far and I'm and looking forward to warmer weather. Although writing a 5-figure check does make me a little tense, looking at it in the garage I just smile.

Now, if I could figure out a way to carry a bicycle on a motorcycle....
__________________

__________________
I heard the call to do nothing. So I answered it.
Walt34 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fighting With the Feds, Advice Needed limpid lizard Other topics 20 11-24-2008 01:12 PM
Interested in starting running again, fighting lack of motivation.......... FinanceDude Health and Early Retirement 36 01-10-2008 04:52 PM
If I splurge, what do you recommend? firewhen Other topics 10 04-04-2007 02:18 AM
Kung-fu Google Fighting just_hatched Other topics 0 04-04-2006 11:27 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:21 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.