Going Solar

[Mulligan]

But it's true, right? The solar folks need the grid, as they are using it as a "bank" for their output and backup power. In fact, their highly variable inputs to the system have to be accommodated by the utilities at significant cost. The solar users should not have their grid costs subsidized by "regular" customers, they should pay their own way. When everyone pays their true costs (including the infrastructure), they'll make decisions that are more rational.

Glad you said it Sam! I was tiptoeing around it a bit. Because I am biased I pulled back a bit. I give them on average $70 a month yearly and they give me thousands yearly back in QDI preferred stock dividends. So my electricity is free already.
As a personal self interest though, if I was looking at solar, I would be checking thoroughly to see what the political landscape is on those "grid fees" before installing. That may be a gift that keeps on giving. I would assume the solar installers are not including that in their proposals.


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[RobbieB]

They already told me my electric bill is not going away, there is a grid fee involved and I will be using power from the grid. Just not as much. Avoid the "top tier" surcharge.

 

[ERD50]

... but residential solar is a no brainer eh? ...

Yes, but probably not in the way you are thinking. samclem touched on some of this, but putting solar panels on a bunch of individual residences makes no sense - it is a no-brainer to NOT do it that way. If we are to do it, it should be done as a solar panel 'farm', on the ground or the flat roofs of large commercial/public buildings where you get economy of scale.

If you're in favor of solar, you should be in favor of commercial installations and against residential. If you're in favor of solar, you want the most solar installed for the least money with the most power out (no shading, roof angle issues to reduce output), and commercial scale is the way to do it.

I've seen the stats on safety of different forms of energy, and rooftop solar is among the worst (the worst?), relative to the power it supplies. Working on residential roofs leads to falls, injuries and even deaths. And every project is another roof with another set of conditions to work around, and then on to the next project. Much safer on a large flat roof, everyone gets familiar with the site, it can be monitored, etc.

Yep, it's a no-brainer.

-ERD50

 

[RobbieB]

A lot of companies here are putting solar on their roof. And stadiums too;

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/...rooftop-garden-solar-energy-propel-levis.html

Real estate is CA is expensive.

 

[Mulligan]

They already told me my electric bill is not going away, there is a grid fee involved and I will be using power from the grid. Just not as much. Avoid the "top tier" surcharge.

That is the area I am not familiar with. We have no surcharges where I live. In fact from October through May they beg you to turn on the heat and A/C. Its 33% less cost per KWH after 750 KWH are used. And that price is just 5.73 cents per KWH. Maybe that is why I rarely see any solar panels in my locale.
And please make sure you know I am not criticizing you, Robbie. The subject interests me, and I like having fun with it. Though I do keep a wayward eye on the situation as a huge slug of my money is invested in the Utes. But, I promise I have never looked at a home that had solar panels and had thoughts of vandalizing it!
Good luck with the implementation!


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[RobbieB]

Hehe, yeah things here are a bit different, juice is a lot more expensive.

Tiered Base Plan (E1) | PG&E

Here it starts at 18 cents and gets to 36 cents.

 

[meierlde]

Hehe, yeah things here are a bit different, juice is a lot more expensive.

Tiered Base Plan (E1) | PG&E

Here it starts at 18 cents and gets to 36 cents.

Where I live in Tx it is 7.8 cents per kwh. (fell in the last year due to low natural gas prices). Because of vertical disintegration of the utility industry you really could not do net metering in Tx (at least as the retail rate) as you pay x for energy and y for delivery of the energy to your home from the substation. You buy power from a retailer who contracts with a generating company to supply power to the substation. The most the retailer could give you for power you put back on the grid is about 5.4 cents or the energy charge. With that its about a 20+ year payout for solar where I live plus we have hail and I have not seen a lot of reports on how well panels stand up to hail (we had up to 3 inch hail around a couple of weeks ago and while it was not quite that big where I live it made quite a racket when falling onto the metal roof (The house had 2 roofs in about 8 years and in year 18 need a new one and I convinced my father to put on a metal roof which also saves energy)

 

[RobbieB]

Oh yeah, if I was paying five to eight cents per I would not have done it. We start at 3X and move to 6X, which also means the payback is 3 to 6 times as fast.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Survey guy was just here and all looks good. He verified that the design will fit and it fits perfectly. The south half of the garage roof will be covered with panels and that's where the power comes in and the breaker box is. He verified sun angle and that looks good.

No part of the living space will have panels.

I don't understand the anti-solar stuff. Aren't we supposed to be reducing carbon footprint and green house gasses? I know that solar won't work for hi demand industrial purposes, but residential solar is a no brainer eh?

I don't think it is anti-solar as much as it is pro-cost effectiveness use of your money. Solar roof top panels are a greener choice than many other goods or services you could spend your money on. It is your money so if you want solar that is your choice and whether solar is cost effective for you depends on many factors.

I was just trying to point out in my earlier post you may get a higher ROI on an investment in conservation like energy efficient appliances, thermal drapes and outdoor solar lighting which might keep you in the lower price tiers. But it is hotter where you live so if you keep your air on quite a bit in summer maybe conservation for you would only go so far.

 

[Ian S]

Wow, $4.72/watt. That's expensive. Even for SunPower and Cali. Hopefully, the warranty includes labor. Microinverters have had a troubled past and unless you have significant shading issues, you're usually better off with a string inverter. Yes a string inverter may not last as long but there will always be different manufacturers selling them even if your inverter company has gone belly up. SunPower is good stuff of course: my SP system just passed its 4 year birthday.

 

[RobbieB]

Yeah, everyone says that price is high. A few guys on another forum bought some kits and had a contractor install them at way less cost. Saving a few grand is not my goal, performance and appearance is.

The warranty is complete, 25 years parts and labor. The panels are new with the microinverters installed right on the panels, SP's been testing them for a while before releasing says the agent.

I dunno. It goes with my new plan of blowing dough before I die -

 

[Mulligan]

Hehe, yeah things here are a bit different, juice is a lot more expensive.

Tiered Base Plan (E1) | PG&E

Here it starts at 18 cents and gets to 36 cents.

Gee, not only is it high, the billing is complicated. And your location adds to it also. Our billing is same price everywhere... Remind me not to buy any PGE preferred stock. The one redeeming feature is I assume your electrical use is less than mine from fly over country. But that may be a false assumption as California has some hot areas, also.


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[RobbieB]

Yeah Baby!

Re-doing the HVAC (at government expense, stick it to the taxpayers) saved me a lot.

I'm gonna roll it again -

 

[pb4uski]

$12.24/month of my electric bill (about 11% of my total electric bill) is a customer charge for access to the grid whether I use electricity or not. The rest is base on usage (9.8c for first 200 kwh and 21.9c for next tier).

 

[RobbieB]

Good to know that I'm a little bit less than twice your cost.

 

[Totoro]

The warranty is complete, 25 years parts and labor.

If you still can, check who actually provides the warranty.

Bankruptcies do happen, especially in this space.

 

[rodi]

We've got plans for solar - but we've got about 5 years till we we're ready to replace our roof... and so we won't get panels till after the new roof.

To show you how messed up electrical billing is in our area:

Tier 1 - 0 to 281 kWh = 17cents /kWh
Tier 2 - 281 to 365 kWh = 20cents/kWh
Tier 3 - >365 kWh = 38cents/kWh

That's average... Now factor in the fact that there is winter and summer rates - which are different. My most recent bill straddled the rates - so it's even more confusing... and they pushed some of the tier 3 use into the winter rates... which is kind of bogus - because I barely go into tier 3 - so by the calendar, I didn't hit tier 3 till summer rates were in effect.

They also break down the bill in a different way - using completely different numbers, and make it impossible to correlate the two parts. The second breakdown includes numbers for generation, transmission, and distribution. The rates quoted above are for "generation". The distribution and transmission are an equally large number so I will only save half of my electrical bill if I put on panels.

We don't have AC or a pool. If we did - we would have put on solar panels a long time ago. Since we don't - we barely break into the tier 3 (38c/kWh) pricing. We're planning on adding AC in the next few years... and possibly a plug in car... when that happens, the panels will make more sense for us.

 

[RobbieB]

This has been very informative. I've been seeing solar trucks everywhere and more and more installs in the neighborhood. The various rates discussed show why solar is popular in CA and not so much in other areas.

Should be interesting, I'll keep reporting as it goes down or up (on the roof) as will be.

 

[REWahoo]

Tier 1 - 0 to 281 kWh = 17cents /kWh
Tier 2 - 281 to 365 kWh = 20cents/kWh
Tier 3 - >365 kWh = 38cents/kWh

For comparison, in my little corner of the world we have a choice of time-of-day rates or a flat rate:

Summer:

11PM to 10AM = $0.0464 /kWh
10AM to 2PM & 6PM to 11PM = $0.0856 /kWh
2PM to 6PM = $0.1321 /kWh

Winter:

11PM to 7AM = $0.0691 /kWh
7AM to 5PM & 7PM to 11PM = $0.0803 /kWh
5PM to 7PM = $0.0913 /kWh

- or -

You can select a flat rate of $0.0885 /kWh for anytime, year-round.

Note: In addition to the above rates we pay a $25/mo "availability charge."

The payback for solar for me is beyond my expected life span.

 

[Mulligan]

$12.24/month of my electric bill (about 11% of my total electric bill) is a customer charge for access to the grid whether I use electricity or not. The rest is base on usage (9.8c for first 200 kwh and 21.9c for next tier).

You guys need to quit posting these high access charges and multi tier pricing schemes. I don't want my utility catching wind of this. The more I use the lower it goes and only a $7 monthly hookup fee. I prefer this pricing model.


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[NW-Bound]

Darn! A peak summer rate of 13.21c/kWh! I am paying 22.26c/kWh on peak.

Why hasn't anybody built a long extension cord to arbitrage all this difference in prices? Must not be a real "free market" then.

 

[Totoro]

I managed to get a zero hookup / access fee. Specifically looked for it since I use relatively little power.

Pay about 20 ct/kwh, most of which goes to distribution and taxes. Poor generator only gets 4 cents or so but has to handle all the billing and customer contact.

 

[Mulligan]

Darn! A peak summer rate of 13.21c/kWh! I am paying 22.26c/kWh on peak.

Why hasn't anybody built a long extension cord to arbitrage all this difference in prices? Must not be a real "free market" then.

Just a generalization but the key to areas with lower rates, are areas not rapidly growing with little need for new plants, the EPA not on their arse demanding changes, and the good ol coal plants kicking out bountiful amounts of that nice cheap electricity!


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[NW-Bound]

Then, sell it to your neighbors, darn it.

I'd bet some powers that be say no, and do not allow it to happen.

 

[REWahoo]

Just a generalization but the key to areas with lower rates, are areas not rapidly growing with little need for new plants, the EPA not on their arse demanding changes, and the good ol coal plants kicking out bountiful amounts of that nice cheap electricity!

Not sure how well your generalization holds up in the case of my "cheap electricity" rates.

I live in one of the fastest growing areas of the country (see this thread).

The vast majority of our power is purchased from the Lower Colorado River Authority (LCRA) with the following generating sources:

Coal - 41%
Natural gas - 46%
Hydroelectric - 7%
Wind - 6%

So certainly a big chunk of coal generation, but less than half and a declining share as new gas generating plants are being built (see LCRA link).

EDIT: Corrected math error (see below).