SecondCor521
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
I know. I didn't name the bill; Congress did.
Is now a good time to be thinking about home solar?
- Thread starter 2HOTinPHX
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I know. I didn't name the bill; Congress did.
zinger1457
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Your electric bills were over $15K per year before solar? That's beyond high, my combined electric bills for the last 15 years weren't that much.
Any recommendations for the best resources on designing your own system? Did you farm out any of the work or do it all yourself?
Site: Northern CA; 25 miles from ocean but only 5 miles to San Francisco Bay
Utility: PG&E. There are 3 main utilities in CA and a # of independents
Install: Went "live" October 2014
Specs:
– 3.5 kW, 14 roof panels (hi-efficiency Hyundai), paid in cash $14,367
– No battery system
– Linked to power grid
– Under NEM rates until 2034 but subject to PUC-approved changes
Due to wildfire liability, PG&E has been steadily raising rates (as have other utilities) and we now pay some of the highest rates in the US, tiered for usage. On average there have been 2-3 major rate increases every year, for the past four years.
Prior to install our electricity rates averaged $100–125/monthly. Minimum grid charge is $10/mo; this and the cancellation of all current NEM is currently under debate to be raised/how much to charge.
Our electricity costs fell to $10 (0 + grid charge)/mo for the first two years. As rates surge costs have been creeping up, and are now roughly $22/mo when I don't run AC. When I do, it adds another $20–25/mo. That happens 2–3x yr, so overall the solar has reduced our electricity needs by +85%.
I originally calculated an 8 yr payback but that was god-knows-how-many-rate-increases ago. And PG&E socked us customers for a 21% rate increase already in 2022, with another increase approved for 2023.
RE agents, even in a recession, agree that here in CA purchased solar panels are a sales plus. Panels last 25 years; inverters last at least 10 yrs. There is no maintenance, unless you want your panels professionally cleaned. Our producer went bankrupt, but we never had them out for service anyway, and three years later that's still true.
Panels do lose some efficiency as they age, but it's minimal: 0.5%. One advantage to those who have waited – current solar tech is way better than my 2014 system! The new panels are half the size but twice the capture.
We qualified for the original 30% fed rebate but the state had already suspended its solar program for the rest of that calendar year. According to our tax advisor this rebate was a "dollar for dollar" credit – I THINK that's how he described it – so essentially, we received the rebate as a large tax refund (we normally end up owing the feds/state <$1K as we prefer to keep our withholding close to actual amount due).
As Congress keeps changing the rebate program, this tax advantage may not be true any longer; as it's a one-time line item I haven't paid any attention to newer solar legislation.
We don't regret doing it. It worked for our location and situation. HTH!
FYI one of our relatives is a former GC and installed his own solar. I made sure to show him the technical specs for our proposed install and he approved of them. He said there are very little differences between panel mfgs, but it's the mounting brackets that really matter. There are three kinds, and he said we had the best/correct ones. Can't remember all the details he explained but essentially, you don't want to mount the panels too close to the roof surface. The cheaper/easier brackets are too short, in his opinion.
Re roof age: solar vendors differ on what they'll accept as a maximum age, but the better vendors usually insist on a roof no older than 5 yrs and preferably, less than 3 yrs.
If you live in a state where multiple roofing layers are allowed, do NOT invest in solar without replacing your roof first. At the very least you need to know how many layers of roofing are up there already, so the additional weight of the panels can be calculated in.
Utility: PG&E. There are 3 main utilities in CA and a # of independents
Install: Went "live" October 2014
Specs:
– 3.5 kW, 14 roof panels (hi-efficiency Hyundai), paid in cash $14,367
– No battery system
– Linked to power grid
– Under NEM rates until 2034 but subject to PUC-approved changes
Due to wildfire liability, PG&E has been steadily raising rates (as have other utilities) and we now pay some of the highest rates in the US, tiered for usage. On average there have been 2-3 major rate increases every year, for the past four years.
Prior to install our electricity rates averaged $100–125/monthly. Minimum grid charge is $10/mo; this and the cancellation of all current NEM is currently under debate to be raised/how much to charge.
Our electricity costs fell to $10 (0 + grid charge)/mo for the first two years. As rates surge costs have been creeping up, and are now roughly $22/mo when I don't run AC. When I do, it adds another $20–25/mo. That happens 2–3x yr, so overall the solar has reduced our electricity needs by +85%.
I originally calculated an 8 yr payback but that was god-knows-how-many-rate-increases ago. And PG&E socked us customers for a 21% rate increase already in 2022, with another increase approved for 2023.
RE agents, even in a recession, agree that here in CA purchased solar panels are a sales plus. Panels last 25 years; inverters last at least 10 yrs. There is no maintenance, unless you want your panels professionally cleaned. Our producer went bankrupt, but we never had them out for service anyway, and three years later that's still true.
Panels do lose some efficiency as they age, but it's minimal: 0.5%. One advantage to those who have waited – current solar tech is way better than my 2014 system! The new panels are half the size but twice the capture.
We qualified for the original 30% fed rebate but the state had already suspended its solar program for the rest of that calendar year. According to our tax advisor this rebate was a "dollar for dollar" credit – I THINK that's how he described it – so essentially, we received the rebate as a large tax refund (we normally end up owing the feds/state <$1K as we prefer to keep our withholding close to actual amount due).
As Congress keeps changing the rebate program, this tax advantage may not be true any longer; as it's a one-time line item I haven't paid any attention to newer solar legislation.
We don't regret doing it. It worked for our location and situation. HTH!
FYI one of our relatives is a former GC and installed his own solar. I made sure to show him the technical specs for our proposed install and he approved of them. He said there are very little differences between panel mfgs, but it's the mounting brackets that really matter. There are three kinds, and he said we had the best/correct ones. Can't remember all the details he explained but essentially, you don't want to mount the panels too close to the roof surface. The cheaper/easier brackets are too short, in his opinion.
Re roof age: solar vendors differ on what they'll accept as a maximum age, but the better vendors usually insist on a roof no older than 5 yrs and preferably, less than 3 yrs.
If you live in a state where multiple roofing layers are allowed, do NOT invest in solar without replacing your roof first. At the very least you need to know how many layers of roofing are up there already, so the additional weight of the panels can be calculated in.
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Koolau
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Yeah, it reminds me of a car dealer trying to convince me that I'd come out ahead by financing my car with them rather than paying cash. Some fast talking finance guy thought I'd hang around and listen, but I got up and walked out on him. I told the car salesman to finish the paperwork or cancel it (I had refused to put any money down.) The slicker the presentation, the less I trust it. YMMV
NW-Bound
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I did everything myself:
1) building a ground mount frame for 20 solar panels, then a roof mount for 14 more panels on the tile roof
2) assembling 2400 lithium cells (each roughly the size of a D cell) into modules, then wiring these modules together into 3 racks and paralleling the 3 racks together via large bus bars
3) mounting all the hardware and electronics in a solar power shed separate from the house for safety (6 charge controllers, 4 inverters, circuit breakers, transfer switches).
4) wiring the solar panels to the shed, and from the shed to the home via homebuilt auto-transfer switches. It's a low voltage system, so instead of a high-voltage string of 600V, my panels are paired up for 100 VDC/pair, and it took a lot of wires.
It took me 3 years to build the system, then expand it. And I am not done yet, particularly the monitoring system.
Nowadays, there are many large subsystems that take a lot of work out of it. And the result will be more reliable too. The extra cost is worth it.
There are many resources on the Web to provide info, but I don't know any well enough to recommend.
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Koolau
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
We had friends who moved from a truly lovely home in Honolulu to the mainland. They spoke bitterly of how they couldn't get any recovery of their recently installed solar system - in fact some folks simply did not want it which surprised me. I could see that reluctance with a pool, but not with solar, but that's what they experienced. YMMV
Solar depends on hill ow you engineer it
Upon retirement decided to control costa. We also were having periodic power company controlled Black outs due to wind/fire risks. Got tired of that so modeled my solar capacity needs. All power across the year resulted in a 6kw array need. Looked at incremental costs for margin and went 9kw and battery system. Have had it four years now and still have the margin to add EVs if ever desired. My system puts enough power back on the grid that I pay NOTHING including the “carrying” charges levied by the power company to hook to the grid. Our payback is going to be around 6.7 years so more than halfway there. Couldn’t be happier - cost was reimbursed 26% by state up front and resulted in energy deduction at Fed giving me enough that system overall cost me less than 50%. Did NOT let solar provider get rebates - they came to me. Haven’t had a blackout in four years. With batteries and satellite TV we easily walk through the power drops the others suffer
Upon retirement decided to control costa. We also were having periodic power company controlled Black outs due to wind/fire risks. Got tired of that so modeled my solar capacity needs. All power across the year resulted in a 6kw array need. Looked at incremental costs for margin and went 9kw and battery system. Have had it four years now and still have the margin to add EVs if ever desired. My system puts enough power back on the grid that I pay NOTHING including the “carrying” charges levied by the power company to hook to the grid. Our payback is going to be around 6.7 years so more than halfway there. Couldn’t be happier - cost was reimbursed 26% by state up front and resulted in energy deduction at Fed giving me enough that system overall cost me less than 50%. Did NOT let solar provider get rebates - they came to me. Haven’t had a blackout in four years. With batteries and satellite TV we easily walk through the power drops the others suffer
earlysignoff
Confused about dryer sheets
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New Tesla solar panel installation
Friends: I recently installed a 10.4Kwh Tesla solar panel set up on my roof with Powerwall+ plus whole home back up. I live in New Jersey. My roof was 15 years old . I put in a new roof before the installation of the panels. The entire set up after federal tax credit (30%) and upfront state clean energy credits ( Tesla gives upfront the discounted state credits) comes to $19,500. I can also include the cost of the roof for claiming the 30% credits which will bring some relief to the total cost. I am entitled to net metering. During the past two weeks, by 12 noon my Powerwall is backed up to 100% and between 12 noon and 5 pm , I am on solar only. I may have a 10 year payback which might be better depending on how the net metering works. The battery power back up is a plus as over the past 3 years we have been losing power quite often for short periods of time. Helps when DW works remotely. After one year, I will evaluate if I need more panels to get to 100% energy independence.
Friends: I recently installed a 10.4Kwh Tesla solar panel set up on my roof with Powerwall+ plus whole home back up. I live in New Jersey. My roof was 15 years old . I put in a new roof before the installation of the panels. The entire set up after federal tax credit (30%) and upfront state clean energy credits ( Tesla gives upfront the discounted state credits) comes to $19,500. I can also include the cost of the roof for claiming the 30% credits which will bring some relief to the total cost. I am entitled to net metering. During the past two weeks, by 12 noon my Powerwall is backed up to 100% and between 12 noon and 5 pm , I am on solar only. I may have a 10 year payback which might be better depending on how the net metering works. The battery power back up is a plus as over the past 3 years we have been losing power quite often for short periods of time. Helps when DW works remotely. After one year, I will evaluate if I need more panels to get to 100% energy independence.
We added 3kW solar in 2005, when our power price was $0.08/kWh and pre-incentive cost was $22k (post-incentive $12k). With incentives, I calculated a pay-out of around 10-12 years assuming modest increases in power prices and little maintenance. Well, maintenance costs have been zero, other than the cost of the window-washing pole and scrubber that I use to clean the panels. I did choose to change the inverter a couple of years ago to one that will output 2kW during a power outage. Power prices have risen faster than expected to the current $0.30-40 range, so the return on our initial investment has been higher than initially anticipated. We have not had a power bill (beyond the $10 monthly grid fee) since 2005. Actual payout was in 12 years, and the decline in panel output has been less than 10% over the 17 years of operation.
Our (40 year) roof was 5 years old at the time we installed the solar, and it only has another couple of years until it needs to be replaced. When we replace the roof, we're going to have to think hard about whether to put the old panels back up, or to replace them with a new system (likely with battery backup).
Our (40 year) roof was 5 years old at the time we installed the solar, and it only has another couple of years until it needs to be replaced. When we replace the roof, we're going to have to think hard about whether to put the old panels back up, or to replace them with a new system (likely with battery backup).
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ncbill
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Nowadays it's even easier.
Buy 48VDC, 5 kWh rack-mount batteries with all the safety features included.
Stack 6 of those in a rack for 30kWh, connect to an all-in-one like the Sol-Ark 15K, and run series strings of solar panels up to 500VDC directly to it for 240VAC, 15kW output from a single, outdoor-rated unit.
NW-Bound
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Yes, there are so many choices now.
How about a single rack unit which has everything?
50 kWh battery, 18 kW 120V/240V whole house inverter, 240A (12kW) solar charger.
That storage capacity is the same as 4 Tesla Powerwalls.
For a mere $30K, you get all the above. All you need is to add solar panels. It will accept power from 36 panels.
PS. This rack weighs 700 kg (1500 lbs). It will run your 5-ton central AC.
How about a single rack unit which has everything?
50 kWh battery, 18 kW 120V/240V whole house inverter, 240A (12kW) solar charger.
That storage capacity is the same as 4 Tesla Powerwalls.
For a mere $30K, you get all the above. All you need is to add solar panels. It will accept power from 36 panels.
PS. This rack weighs 700 kg (1500 lbs). It will run your 5-ton central AC.
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Masquernom
Full time employment: Posting here.
Yes, there are so many choices now.
How about a single rack unit which has everything?
50 kWh battery, 18 kW 120V/240V whole house inverter, 240A (12kW) solar charger.
That storage capacity is the same as 4 Tesla Powerwalls.
For a mere $30K, you get all the above. All you need is to add solar panels. It will accept power from 36 panels.
PS. This rack weighs 700 kg (1500 lbs). It will run your 5-ton central AC.
What does something like that cost?
aja8888
Moderator Emeritus
Koolau
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
You are very fortunate. Our electric company on Oahu (HECO) severely restricts the number of solar connections. Obviously, you can go "off grid" but there is no "right" to sell to the grid. HECO can't deal with the variable power levels and simply won't allow "too many" solar connections within a given area. Also, no matter how much "juice" you put back into the system, you don't get a zero bill (unless that has been changed with no fan fare.) So you pay all the connection fees even if you put hundreds of dollars worth of electricity back into the grid. (Any Oahu residents looking into this - do your own research!) YMMV
Koolau
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Please keep us posted as electric rate increases may make your pay-back period more favorable. I love it when stuff works the way it's suppose to!
EastWest Gal
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
About $350-$380 in the summer. About $70 after solar. It’s been in the 90s much of the summer the last few years. Moderately high humidity. We have a 2600 sq ft house. It’s often humid enough that opening windows at night is not helpful. It’s been getting noticeably warmer since we moved here 23 years ago.
Koolau
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
"Help save the planet". Your 'help' will be un-done a million-fold by China, India, and the 3rd-world countries who put most everything ahead of saving the planet. Sometimes emotion is skillfully used to hide the facts. Listen carefully to the SALESperson's presentation!
NW-Bound
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I guess you were distracted by the pretty photo and did not read my post.
Probably about 20 years worth of electric bills!
Only 10 years in the Valley of the Sun where I live, where the AC runs 24/7 for the peak summer months. But there would be additional cost for the panels too.
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NW-Bound
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I don't blame the utility company for not accepting "surplus" electricity from home owners early in the day when the sun is shining, and to give them credit to take it back out at night.
Say, if I have a lemon tree that produces more than I can use, can I bring it to a grocery store for them to keep my lemons, so that I can go and claim my "deposit" throughout the year in off season?
Electric power is more perishable than anything you have. The "containers" to store electric power are expensive.
People should try to store their own electric power like I do with lithium cells, and they will appreciate the cost.
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Koolau
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Oh, I agree completely. I don't blame HECO (although they originally seemed to "favor" solar.) The issue is that those pushing adoption of solar point out how wonderful "free" electricity is (from solar.) It doesn't always work out that way - especially if you don't also do batteries. Once again, there really is no free lunch (or free electricity.) Solar works for some but not for all. I hope we can do much more solar in the future. YMMV
Looked into solar here in the midwest and decided it would be more of a fun hobby, than really save $, would DIY as I like that kind of thing. Have enough land so would not be on the roof!
If we do end up with a get away shack would like that to be off grid, that would be fun.
Its interesting, our electric and gas bills are about eqaul to our property taxes. From a dollar perspective my time would be better spent reminding the locals are not part of congress!
If we do end up with a get away shack would like that to be off grid, that would be fun.
Its interesting, our electric and gas bills are about eqaul to our property taxes. From a dollar perspective my time would be better spent reminding the locals are not part of congress!
Fabulous thread. DH and I have decided to look into solar. We are just beginning the education part so have a lot to learn.
We're in the SF Bay Area with plenty of sun (summer anyways) and extremely high rates. Sunrun is coming out Friday to give us their spiel. I'm putting together a list of questions and with 3 years of PG&E bills, a very detailed spreadsheet to 'verify' their cost savings claims. We'll be looking at both panels only as well as battery backup.
My first question(s) to you all:
1. Is Sunrun a good/decent company and what are some other good companies as well as companies to avoid?
2. As we just purchased an EV and will be charging at home, what's a good monthly use to calculate? We just purchased the car so don't have good feel. We drive the car about 6K miles/year. I'm sure they will overestimate our savings here. I'm thinking max at $50/month at 0.425c/kWh for off-peak (we're on a 'time-of-use' rate plan) charging.
Many thanks for your input.
We're in the SF Bay Area with plenty of sun (summer anyways) and extremely high rates. Sunrun is coming out Friday to give us their spiel. I'm putting together a list of questions and with 3 years of PG&E bills, a very detailed spreadsheet to 'verify' their cost savings claims
. We'll be looking at both panels only as well as battery backup.My first question(s) to you all:
1. Is Sunrun a good/decent company and what are some other good companies as well as companies to avoid?
2. As we just purchased an EV and will be charging at home, what's a good monthly use to calculate? We just purchased the car so don't have good feel. We drive the car about 6K miles/year. I'm sure they will overestimate our savings here. I'm thinking max at $50/month at 0.425c/kWh for off-peak (we're on a 'time-of-use' rate plan) charging.
Many thanks for your input.
OP
OP
2HOTinPHX
Full time employment: Posting here.
OP here...glad you're enjoying the thread. Lots of good input.Fabulous thread. DH and I have decided to look into solar. We are just beginning the education part so have a lot to learn.
We're in the SF Bay Area with plenty of sun (summer anyways) and extremely high rates. Sunrun is coming out Friday to give us their spiel. I'm putting together a list of questions and with 3 years of PG&E bills, a very detailed spreadsheet to 'verify' their cost savings claims
My first question(s) to you all:
1. Is Sunrun a good/decent company and what are some other good companies as well as companies to avoid?
2. As we just purchased an EV and will be charging at home, what's a good monthly use to calculate? We just purchased the car so don't have good feel. We drive the car about 6K miles/year. I'm sure they will overestimate our savings here. I'm thinking max at $50/month at 0.425c/kWh for off-peak (we're on a 'time-of-use' rate plan) charging.
Many thanks for your input.
I was meaning to share an update on our quest for solar. The guy who quoted us and did his presentation over the internet was supposed to check back with us a few weeks later. He has not attempted to contact us. Works out for us as he seemed a little sketchy to us. We actually met him at his other job selling furniture. Probably should have been a red flag but we were trying to be open minded. Seemed like a nice enough guy at the time. Maybe we asked too many questions during his presentation? His numbers were not adding up for us. Be on the look out for exaggerated savings claims. We pointed out his 30% tax savings showing on his price would probably not apply to our situation. Maybe the fact that we asked for customer references on completed jobs. He said he would supply some but never did.
So for now our dreams of solar are on hold. We decided money would probably be better spent on replacing our 1998 heating and cooling system and builder grade windows over the next few months. Those things take a beating during the summer in Phoenix. We already had an electrician add energy efficient recessed LED lighting in all the rooms a couple of years ago and love them.
Hope your solar search goes better than ours did.
