Going Solar

[ERD50]

Where there is a grid. But if off-grid electricity can be cheap and reliable, it would open up lots of potential new residential locations away from the power lines. Running AC to a remote property can be very expensive. Water (well), septic, and even cell-based data services are much more broadly available, and it's generally practical to truck-in propane or oil for heat. Often electric power is the only missing "essential."
So, I'd be in the same boat as Just Steve--because only a solar electric system with battery backup gives me something worth the cost--the ability to use a lower-cost, more rural site.

Agreed, but he said " to be able to be almost totally off grid. ". Implying he still had a grid connection. So I don't get it.

-ERD50

 

[Just_Steve]

Agreed, but he said " to be able to be almost totally off grid. ". Implying he still had a grid connection. So I don't get it.

-ERD50

To not be beholden to the extortionist power company.

Grid meaning power grid, not in the boonies type of grid.

 

[RobbieB]

I need the grid, the AC will not work w/o it. With AC on and the rest of the house running I have seen demand of over 4 KW. It's running now and when I look I'm drawing 1.6 KW, so the solar is making 2.4.

Of course the AC is not even running half the time so when it's not I'm spinning the meter backward. It's really pretty cool -

 

[meierlde]

Image you got paid the price for electricity you put into the grid that the utility pays the big generator and transmission line company, not the retail price. That might be .05 to .07 per kwh. Essentially the issue is that if you draw for 1 min peak power the distribution system has to be sized to handle it. Thus the movement to more fixed charges or in some cases the model used in commercial power where there is a demand charge as well as an energy charges (Part of your bill is based upon the peak demand for electricity over say 15 mins, because that controls the investment needed in the distribution system.
Here is a link to a piece from a local electric coop which says where I live its a 15 to 24 year payout for solar: Renewable Energy | Central Texas Electric Cooperative

Note the piece also suggests that here solar systems don't generally have a net contribution to the grid over a year (they average over the year and true up once a year).
Note that today it was announced that utility scale solar in Dubai is down to .025/kwh and in Mexico .029/kwh. Austin Tx bought some at .04/kwh also. I suspect that rather than roof top solar, the trend might be utility scale solar. Given the economics cited above, the long pay out for roof top solar makes little sense without taxpayer subsidy (or ratepayer subsidy which is basically a tax).
Off grid living is doable, there are lots of TV shows on it, it does require different appliances (generally smaller), but of course led lights make it much more doable.

 

[samclem]

Given the economics cited above, the long pay out for roof top solar makes little sense without taxpayer subsidy (or ratepayer subsidy which is basically a tax).

In the big picture, residential rooftop solar makes zero sense with or without subsidies. It's among the most expensive ways to produce solar electric power.

 

[ERD50]

To not be beholden to the extortionist power company.

Grid meaning power grid, not in the boonies type of grid.

How is it 'extortion'? You yourself said you can't do it cheaper yourself. To me, it sounds like they offer a great product at a great price.

I get all the kWh I need for ~ $0.10 per kWh, and it is very reliable (a few short outages per year maybe).

Now, if you did have a cheaper alternative, and were not allowed to disconnect from the grid and forced to buy their product, I might understand.

-ERD50

 

[meierlde]

I need the grid, the AC will not work w/o it. With AC on and the rest of the house running I have seen demand of over 4 KW. It's running now and when I look I'm drawing 1.6 KW, so the solar is making 2.4.

Of course the AC is not even running half the time so when it's not I'm spinning the meter backward. It's really pretty cool -

Actually the bigger problem is the starting inrush current needed when larger motors start. If you look for example at a fridge you typically need 2 to 3x the capacity in a generator that the fridge while running takes. Power needed during the start of an AC unit could be up to 10kw (for maybe 1/2 second)

 

[meierlde]

In the big picture, residential rooftop solar makes zero sense with or without subsidies. It's among the most expensive ways to produce solar electric power.

Perhaps the model the San Antonio city utility is using of it installing the rooftop solar and giving a reduction in the utility bill in the form of rent for using the roof. Although even in this program the subsidy decreases as more units are installed. It started out as a $1.20 per watt but has been decreasing. This model does not require any outlay from the homeowner, and the utility can choose where it wants to put the panels for grid stability purposes.

Note that currently this model pays .03/kwh generated.

 

[Just_Steve]

How is it 'extortion'? You yourself said you can't do it cheaper yourself. To me, it sounds like they offer a great product at a great price.

I get all the kWh I need for ~ $0.10 per kWh, and it is very reliable (a few short outages per year maybe).

Now, if you did have a cheaper alternative, and were not allowed to disconnect from the grid and forced to buy their product, I might understand.

-ERD50

OK, maybe a poor word choice. But I would be more than happy to generate my own power if I could.

 

[samclem]

Perhaps the model the San Antonio city utility is using of it installing the rooftop solar and giving a reduction in the utility bill in the form of rent for using the roof. Although even in this program the subsidy decreases as more units are installed. It started out as a $1.20 per watt but has been decreasing. This model does not require any outlay from the homeowner, and the utility can choose where it wants to put the panels for grid stability purposes.

Note that currently this model pays .03/kwh generated.

No, the costly/inefficient part is putting these panels on SFH. The small size and unique siting aspects of each house will always make the per watt installation costs and any maintenance costs a lot higher than they should be. Any town with large footprint structures (warehouses, malls, large retail stores, factories, covered parking areas, etc) has locations were solar panels can be installed at lower costs, were they can be optimally inclined for best production, where they will not be shaded, where they are far less likely to be damaged, where they can be easily serviced, and where they can be economically replaced at the end of their service life. Sprinkling these panels around on residential rooftops a few at time is about the least efficient way to get this done (other than the "solar roads" idiocy)

 

[RobbieB]

End of the day, shadows getting long, only making a hundred watts;

 

[skipro33]

Regarding an uptick in minimum utility charges from the electric company for being hooked to their grid while being a solar homeowner;
Right now, I pay about $10 for the grid charge I call it. However, IF I use $10 more in power than I generate, I still only pay the $10 for the grid charge. Meaning; the utility charges me for a minimum amount of power used. It behooves me to use how ever many kilowatts the minimum charge represents.

Skip ahead to the future when the charge goes up to $30 a month. A future solar home owner needs fewer solar watts since he's required to use at least $30 a month from his utility. If the solar equipment is priced per watt, average $5 a watt or so, I don't see how this raise in a base rate would affect the total # of customers opting for solar. They would just have a smaller sized system designed and installed.

Even better, the installing solar company could offer a 'free' water heater or other home appliance incentive to justify a larger array. Or perhaps a hot tub. Speaking of which; since the federal credit on solar includes incidentals such as the cost of roof upgrades, could it be rationalized to upgrade appliances to electric from gas and get the solar credit against those costs?

For existing solar customers, IF they weren't grandfathered in to a minimum rate increase, there is an option as well. For me, a current solar owner, not all my energy is solar, although all my electric use is covered by solar. I also use propane. For heating, cooking, hot water. I imagine I could change out my water heater tank from gas to electric and more than offset the $30 a month potential rise in the utility minimum charge.

Even if I were all electric, I'd not walk away from $30 a month sitting there in kilowatts unused. A hot tub uses about a buck a day in electricity. I could always do with setting my thermometer a little cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter.

I guess you could say, basically, a rate increase for a minimum monthly charge to be connected to the grid undermines energy conservation for solar customers.

 

[ERD50]

...
Right now, I pay about $10 for the grid charge I call it. However, IF I use $10 more in power than I generate, I still only pay the $10 for the grid charge. ...

That seems odd. I have a monthly 'connection fee' for my utilities, and there is no offset based on usage. You pay the fee, you pay your delivery charge (paying for your use of the infrastructure) and you pay supply charge (kWh or cubic feet of gas) - each is separate with no interaction. In many places, the delivery and supply charge are bundled, but we are allowed to choose our supplier (generally at the community level, but I think individuals can choose as well).

Do the smart meters actually track incoming and outgoing energy separately, and just net those out for your bill? Or do they effectively run backwards, and all you see is the net? If you can get separate in and out readings, I would say that the correct way to do the billing would be to charge a fixed connection fee, a delivery charge for kWh in, and a net (in - out) supply charge.

If out> in, maybe the utility should pay the wholesale rate, I think most systems stop at zero?


-ERD50

 

[Mulligan]

But for me, Ski, it ensures my timely quarterly preferred stock dividends that I enjoy being deposited in my brokerage accounts.

 

[skipro33]

Do the smart meters actually track incoming and outgoing energy separately, and just net those out for your bill? Or do they effectively run backwards, and all you see is the net? If you can get separate in and out readings, I would say that the correct way to do the billing would be to charge a fixed connection fee, a delivery charge for kWh in, and a net (in - out) supply charge.

If out> in, maybe the utility should pay the wholesale rate, I think most systems stop at zero?

-ERD50

The smart meter is just reading out net. However, it telemetries back to the utility a buffered real-time use I can track on their website for my account. With Time-Of-Use rates, the solar owner is concerned more about rates than kilowatts. To bank at the peak rates and withdraw at the off peak rates is where the solar can make enough to help offset the monthly min-charges. I thought I had to pay that monthly charge no matter if I over generated or not. It just wasn't all that clear, even though the utility said I need to pay monthly, that monthly fee. I didn't. I didn't pay the utility anything for the full year. I 'overgenerated' enough to offset the full minimum monthly fee plus an additional $16 worth of off peak-rated power. My bill was for 36 cents; a tax that could not be offset by any generation on my part.

 

[skipro33]

That seems odd. I have a monthly 'connection fee' for my utilities, and there is no offset based on usage. You pay the fee, you pay your delivery charge (paying for your use of the infrastructure) and you pay supply charge (kWh or cubic feet of gas) - each is separate with no interaction. In many places, the delivery and supply charge are bundled, but we are allowed to choose our supplier (generally at the community level, but I think individuals can choose as well).
-ERD50

See, I thought that too with my utility bill; that the monthly minimum was a connection fee, separate from kilowatt consumption. I was wrong when I got to true-up. Then it was obvious that the charge included 'use it or loose it' power in it's valuation.

 

[RobbieB]

Yes, this detail shows that you get a credit for the "connect fee"

I'm glad I followed the recommend to go less than consumption. I used 7200 KWH last year and I'm estimated to generate 5500. I got PTO in 3 days after submission rather than the 5 to 10 advised.

And it all fits neatly on one half (south facing) of my garage roof. Robbie is a happy guy -

 

[RobbieB]

My usage detail from PG&E for the last month. Went online the 20th and the 21st was cloudy. Sweet, so glad I did this -

 

[RobbieB]

First bill came in, part regular, part NEM. 26 days of regular and 6 days of NEM.

I'm always going to have an electric bill, but it's going to be really small -

 

[RobbieB]

Online for a whole month now starting 9-20-16. Since I started 2 days before the autumnal equinox, the results should be a pretty good average, well a little less as 90% of production was after the midpoint. The guys were pretty good at estimating production, no "optimistic" numbers were found;

 

[Another Reader]

I'm trying to figure out how much of a discount I should get beyond what I was offered in early September under NEM 1.0 to live with NEM 2.0. Anyone in California looked at the impact yet?

 

[RobbieB]

You want the contractor to lower the cost because PG&E raised theirs?

Good luck!

Not to mention the 30% tax credit will be going away in 2019...

 

[Another Reader]

Contractors can only charge what the market will bear. Once word gets around that the benefits have decreased substantially because of changes in TOU, hook up costs, and other changes unfavorable to the buyer, the price should go down.

In Arizona, the terms became so unfavorable that many contractors pulled out altogether. They could no longer make a profit on solar installations.

 

[Hermit]

Up here going solar means no grid as backup. With the power company wanting $5k + for each pole and all the other charges for hook-up, my neighbor decided to go off-grid. He has to be very careful with selecting appliances, but seems to be doing fine. They have four kids and live up here for six or seven months of the year.

 

[RobbieB]

There is lots of competition in the panel & inverter side, prices have fallen and there is economy of scale too. Solar trucks buzzing around everywhere.

Yes demand has fallen due to the impending demise of NEM 1, but there are still some MW left. You could possibly squeak in under the wire if there were no material delays. Except for the panel delay, mine went real fast me thinks because I sized it small and my contractor knew how to do the paperwork correctly. I got PTO in 3 days after final.