Having a Goodman Furnace *installed*

[Texas Proud]

Now you just need a wireless thermostat to control from your smart phone, and you will be in retirement heaven. Enjoy the new system!

Yea... but.... when I got a split system (one unit with two ducts groups) I had to replace my controllers... I got good ones, but the wifi ones were about $125 more each!!! Nope, I can go and push a button...

However, I do not do that very often, so am OK with what I have and do not need the info that the wifi ones give... maybe ERD50 will since he seems to keep track of everything...

 

[Pilot2013]

OK ERD50- If you don;t mind, can you say what tonnage, and approximate costs?

Thanks!

 

[ERD50]

Update - it's installed and cooling!

I think you will really like the variable speed fan and the two stage AC. I'm amazed at how closely my system keeps the temperature to the set point and how well the AC dehumidifies.

Yep. Got it installed yesterday, weather was pretty mild. Today it got hot, but not crazy hot, and humidity was mild, (near 90 F, but only 50-60% humidity, but sunny, and very little west shade on our house).

So the install went well. A truck showed up early and (gently!) dropped off everything in the driveway so it was ready - the installers (two young guys that seemed well versed in everything they had to do) got here at the prescribed time, and we walked through everything, and they got to work. I did some prep, cut back some bushes where they had to run the lines to the compressor (we moved it from where it was - more on that later), and cleared out my projects in the basement so they could get the furnace and water heater in/out easily. They said (and I was pre-warned) that it might go into Saturday, so they planned to hold off on the water heater install, and let that roll into Saturday if needed. But they got it all done in one long day - they were here from 7:30 AM to ~ 7 PM, and kept busy the whole time (they had pizza delivered ~ 4PM).

I even threw in a change on them (after the old AC was pulled out, we rethought about where we wanted the PVC in/out for the furnace positioned). No problem, they checked it out, said they could do it (it was more work for them), and they got it done. Everything was done neatly, no short cuts that I could see. And yes, I'm pretty picky, though I will give pros a little slack in that they have to get a job done and get out- a DIY can have flexibility to stretch things out over a few days (weeks, months, years? in my case) if needed.

The big surprise - after they unpacked the AC compressor - that thing was HUGE! The brochure never shows it with anything to compare it to. Our old one was probably below waist level height, this thing is the almost the size of a refrigerator (about shoulder height)! Actually 37" wide, 24" deep, and 53" high. It's a monster. I'm so glad we decided to have it moved around the side of the house, off the garage. I was a little concerned, as moving it puts it closer to the neighbors, but when it was started to test it, I couldn't believe how quiet it was. I thought, and verified today, if I'm 10 feet away from it, the neighbor's AC is about the same volume as this thing. I was in the back yard today when it started, and I didn't even notice. No, no problem for the neighbors.

I got a chance to peer inside it today through the grill vents - it's almost empty! The motor/compressor look to be smaller than a couple one gallon paint cans. A lot of empty space, but all the perimeter is taken up with the coils which have what looks like aluminum 'hairs' to distribute the heat - looks kind of like shiny Christmas tree garland. I guess that is what is needed for the high efficiency. And a large fan on top (but the motor is just 1/5 HP).

I knew they said I needed a new high-tech thermostat to take advantage of all the features, and they upgraded me to the full wi-fi enabled version. I started to have second thoughts about all this when I saw all the complexity of this thermostat - a bunch of set up options (they did that though), and so many options. But the basics are pretty easy. And after I had a chance to get familiar with it, I realized that there isn't much extra hardware in all this. But having a 2 stage AC (not sure if that even involves extra valves or anything - maybe just a low -power mode?), and a variable speed blower, plus a humidity sensor opens up a LOT of control possibilities. So really, the complexity is in the thermostat controller, I think. If that is reliable (a Trane XL850 with Nexia apps).

Sooooo, I started it up ~ 11AM today, as it reached ~ 78-79 inside. It ran for about an hour to bring it down to the 76 setting. And the 'intelligence' became obvious right away. The default humidity target is ~ 45-55%, so it ran at the stage 1 mode and with a 45% blower speed to bring down the humidity. After about an hour, it decided to go to stage 2 to get the house to target temperature. After that, the cycles were more like 10 minutes on, 15-20 minutes off. Sometimes, it ran at 65% blower (I guess it decided humidity was close enough, and prioritized cooling?). I noticed the variable speed fan would run a few minutes at a very slow speed at the end of the cycle to squeak out the last bit of cooling from that coil.

So with this running almost always at stage 1 mode, and at a reasonable duty cycle, it looks like I will have the reserve I hoped for for the really hot days, when we inevitably have a large group over.

Bottom line - it really performed as I had hoped, and quieter than I expected. Got the humidity down. I later selected 'circulate' mode for the fan, which will run the fan for a minimum of 30 minutes out of an hour, to help keep the upstairs cool. I might just set the fan 'ON" for tonight. I have no measured yet, but I understand the VS fans take very little power in these circulate modes.

Time will tell, but I think these things could be as reliable as the old units. Variable speed motors are established technology. Devil's in the details.

So far, very happy. Again, I really was going for comfort, but that required the features in the high efficiency units. That added dollars, but the various rebates and tax credits look like they keep the payback to ~ 4 years. Not bad (if it is reliable).

Oh, the water heater has a power damper on it, that qualified it for a credit, and probably makes sense to reduce air infiltration.

OK ERD50- If you don;t mind, can you say what tonnage, and approximate costs?

Thanks!

The AC is 4 ton (old unit was 3.7 ton, but probably never ran optimally), and in stage 1 is 2.8 ton (70%).

I'm almost afraid to post the price

This install was moving the compressor ~ 50 feet (closer to electrical source, so that was no issue, but lots of refrigerant lines to run, and a somewhat complicated run - through the basement, crawl, out the wall, over and around the side of the house), PVC in/out vents added, old stuff removed, some duct adaptations. New humidifier and smart thermostat. Lots of details that they handled very well. High eff, 2 stage furnace with VS fan, new water heater.

OK, $10,000 ( they took my 2% rewards AMEX though). Yep, that's a lot. Should get a $500 tax credit. Yes, big bucks, but this was a big job, and everyone seemed very professional. Hopefully, I feel the same a few years down the road.

Just started playing with the connected apps. DW is already tired of hearing me talk about reported duty cycles, fan speeds, and humidity targets But she said she is very comfortable, so that's good.

Any other questions?

-ERD50

 

[meierlde]

RE Huge AC compressor units. They have been getting larger since the 1970s as the SEER goes up. The first unit in my house in Houston, was about 2foot tall 2 foot wide and 3 foot long. The next unit got bigger and the final unit was bigger still (4 ton units). The last unit there was installed in the mid ninteys and i sold the house in 2005. Interestingly at my current house when I replaced the units they got taller but with a smaller footprint as instead of a distinct compartment for the compressor it was put in the middle of the empty space in the unit.

 

[target2019]

RE Huge AC compressor units. They have been getting larger since the 1970s as the SEER goes up. The first unit in my house in Houston, was about 2foot tall 2 foot wide and 3 foot long. The next unit got bigger and the final unit was bigger still (4 ton units). The last unit there was installed in the mid ninteys and i sold the house in 2005. Interestingly at my current house when I replaced the units they got taller but with a smaller footprint as instead of a distinct compartment for the compressor it was put in the middle of the empty space in the unit.

Recently had two 2.5 ton Rheem units installed. These have large fan blades, with each unit being approximately 35" x 35" x 26". 16 SEER.

 

[RobbieB]

Yes, the new efficient models are much larger.

My new one and my old one. New is a bit larger (3.5 ton) than the old (3 ton) but you can see the new on is like 4X the volume.

 

[ERD50]

... Interestingly at my current house when I replaced the units they got taller but with a smaller footprint as instead of a distinct compartment for the compressor it was put in the middle of the empty space in the unit.

That might be the case for mine as well - I didn't measure the old one, but it definitely had the compressor/motor off to the side, where the new one has so much empty space in it, the compressor/motor are in the middle with lots of room to spare.

I put it on "circulate" mode last night, which keeps the fan running a minimum of 30 minutes an hour, and that kept the upstairs within a few degrees of downstairs. And it got cool outside last night, so the A/C barely ran. With our old system, that would have left the upstairs get hot. We would sometimes keep the fan ON continuous mode at night, but that would suck up some not insignificant amount electricity. I'll also try this new system with fan ON continuous at night - my understanding is the variable speed will run at an even lower speed, but enough to keep even temperatures, and not use much juice at all.

I hope to find wattage specs for the motor at these different speeds, but at some point, I'll probably plug in my Kill-a-Watt meter to see (I had them put a plug on the furnace, like my old one, so I could do that and plug it into my inverter in case of a long power outage).

-ERD50

 

[RobbieB]

Consider a "whole house" attic fan. I put this one in the existing access. It's just sitting in there with stops so it can't move sideways and can be removed easily.

I just open the windows at night and leave it running all night. Come morning the house is the same temp as outdoors and I shut it down and close the windows.

Since I used the existing opening, I had to make a custom shutter frame and buy a new shutter.

 

[ERD50]

Consider a "whole house" attic fan. ...

I've considered them, they seem like a good idea. Always better to just move air than to move energy.

But it might not be that great in our climate. I'll try to note how many nights this season we could make use of a system like that. Often, if the day was warm and the night will be cool enough to open up, the night air is 'muggy/clammy'. So we might cool the house temperature wise, but then we are back to trying to bring the humidity down.

I'm going to guess that maybe 10 nights a year we would make good use of that system here. Probably not worth the cost of installation and run time, compared to our now high-efficiency air conditioner?

Sounds like a good investment for your climate though.

-ERD50

 

[RobbieB]

Pops had one back in Michigan and it worked well. Especially good for 2 story homes where all the hot air rises. At least you start the day with a cool house and then AC later as the day heats up.

The other thing that just rocks is the fresh air. House doesn't smell "stuffy" anymore. And if you burn something in the kitchen or cook up something "stinky" it's easy to get rid of the smoke/smell.

Yeah, cheap too, about 150 watts -

 

[travelover]

I thought about installing a whole house fan, but found that two 20" fans side by side in a 42" window and an open window on the other end of the house will cool down the house nicely as long as over night temps are 65 degrees. Of course, as temps rise, one needs to close the windows. If overnight temps are too warm, I just run the AC. This has worked for 25 years in this house in MI.


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

 

[molly312]

If you have radon in the area - frequently found in Michigan regions and other states, Whole house fan is not recommended as it sucks up the radon into the house. Also, energy people do not recommend attic fan as it is usually a warm air loss in cold climate. That was what we were told when we had an energy audit performed. They recommended removing the whole house attic fan.

 

[Pilot2013]

Thanks for the info ERD50. I think I am not far behind with having to replace my Goodman (installed in 2007 - New home). I think it is 3 Ton unit, and probably need at least that, if not 3.5 Ton. Luckily, my neighbor across the street owns an HVAC company. Hoping for some good support in decision making.

 

[RobbieB]

If you have radon in the area - frequently found in Michigan regions and other states, Whole house fan is not recommended as it sucks up the radon into the house.

This is not a problem if you open the windows and that is required for proper operation of the fan. You need at least as much open window area as the fan intake, more is better. If you don't open the windows all sorts of evil stuff happens as you pull vacuum on the whole house and draw air down places that were never designed for it like the fireplace flue and the furnace flue and kitchen and bath vents.

With windows open the house is constantly refreshed with outside air which exits the attic vents. There will be no more radon inside the house than there is in the outside air.

 

[target2019]

The humidity in this area is very high, so I'm thinking the whole house fan would pull in more humidity.

 

[meierlde]

Pops had one back in Michigan and it worked well. Especially good for 2 story homes where all the hot air rises. At least you start the day with a cool house and then AC later as the day heats up.

The other thing that just rocks is the fresh air. House doesn't smell "stuffy" anymore. And if you burn something in the kitchen or cook up something "stinky" it's easy to get rid of the smoke/smell.

Yeah, cheap too, about 150 watts -

I grew up near Detroit and the whole house fan worked great, because it typically cools off into the 60s at night there. Open all the windows in the upstairs and it moves a lot of air. It would not work as well further south, for example in Southern Indiana, where it does not cool off as much. (Does not work to well those few nights when it does not cool off in MI also)
One metric is to look at what the dewpoints about 6 am are and if above 65 then likley it won't work to well.

 

[RobbieB]

It will, no doubt about it. If you run it all night long the house will be almost the same temp and humidity as the outside air. The idea is you cool the whole house down for cheap at night and then shut it down in the morning and delay the turn on of the AC.

The good news is that cooler air holds less water (dew on grass in morning) and you start the day with cooler less humid air in the house.

 

[Sunset]

I first saw them in Kansas, and it worked well to cool the house down, and sometimes then switch if off and use the AC for the final cooling. This was in a 2 story house.

As for not being good in cold climates, we have one, and I build a styrofoam box to place over the top inside the attic, just used caulking to glue sheets of styrofoam.
Each spring I have to remember to remove the box and put it back each fall.

Now whole house fans come with insulation that folds off the top when you go to use it and returns when you don't use it.

 

[Music Lover]

Whole house fans are not for everyone, but used appropriately in the right climate, they can greatly minimize AC usage, or make a house with no AC far more comfortable.

 

[rodi]

Y
Just started playing with the connected apps. DW is already tired of hearing me talk about reported duty cycles, fan speeds, and humidity targets But she said she is very comfortable, so that's good.
-ERD50

Happy wife, Happy life... and all that. I would definitely be walking out of the room (or turning up the volume on the tv) if the conversation remained on duty cycles and fan speeds too much. LOL.

As for attic fans. We have one and use it a lot during the summer. We use it as Robbie describes - run it overnight then turn it off in the morning... then when the temps start rising in the morning, shut the windows to keep that cool relatively dry air inside. We'll use ceiling fans to move the air around inside, and create that "breeze" feeling. We're in a heat spell right now - and it's quite comfortable in our house.

Fortunately, we're close enough to the coast that we get marine layers and temperate temperatures most of the time... which is good because we don't have AC at all.

 

[samclem]

Thanks for the info ERD50. I think I am not far behind with having to replace my Goodman (installed in 2007 - New home). I think it is 3 Ton unit, and probably need at least that, if not 3.5 Ton.

Your unit may be under warranty--Goodman AC units started coming with a 10 year warranty starting in January 2007 (more here), and they had a lifetime warranty on the compressor even before that. It might be limited to the original purchaser, I'm not sure.

Meanwhile, ERD50, thanks for NOTHING! You have jinxed my home AC . I came home from trip and found that my AC was barely keeping the house at 75 degrees when the temp was 90 outside--was running constantly and would not get the house any cooler than 75. It's a 22 year old 2 ton Lennox, 11+ SEER (maybe a bit more depending on the evap coil installed, I have to do a little more research). I may be in the market for a new unit, but first I'll have the maintenance guys out to give it a look. I really don't want to replace it, and hoped it would keep us cool for quite a while longer (I'm in southern Ohio, we do about 4 months of serious cooling per year). It's got a scroll compressor, and even if I buy a 14 or 16 SEER replacement I don't anticipate seeing any monumental decreases in our electric bills.

 

[meierlde]

Your unit may be under warranty--Goodman AC units started coming with a 10 year warranty starting in January 2007 (more here), and they had a lifetime warranty on the compressor even before that. It might be limited to the original purchaser, I'm not sure.

Meanwhile, ERD50, thanks for NOTHING! You have jinxed my home AC . I came home from trip and found that my AC was barely keeping the house at 75 degrees when the temp was 90 outside--was running constantly and would not get the house any cooler than 75. It's a 22 year old 2 ton Lennox, 11+ SEER (maybe a bit more depending on the evap coil installed, I have to do a little more research). I may be in the market for a new unit, but first I'll have the maintenance guys out to give it a look. I really don't want to replace it, and hoped it would keep us cool for quite a while longer (I'm in southern Ohio, we do about 4 months of serious cooling per year). It's got a scroll compressor, and even if I buy a 14 or 16 SEER replacement I don't anticipate seeing any monumental decreases in our electric bills.

You are aware that a unit that old likley uses R22 refrigerant and if there is a need for topping up it will cost an arm and a leg for the refrigerant. Any replacement will also mean replacing the indoor coil at the same time as R410a requires new indoor coils.

 

[samclem]

You are aware that a unit that old likley uses R22 refrigerant and if there is a need for topping up it will cost an arm and a leg for the refrigerant. Any replacement will also mean replacing the indoor coil at the same time as R410a requires new indoor coils.

Yep, thanks. If I scrap my old unit, I wonder if I will get any meaningful credit for that now oh-so-precious R22. Somehow, I doubt it--I'll probably be charged for its removal, reprocessing and "disposal" (i.e. resale or venting). If so, well, I think I have at least one answer for that . . . .

It looks like the retail price for a Goodman 2 ton unit (single-stage, nothing fancy) is about $900, and the evap coil (for using R-410a) will run about another $275. I don't know yet what it will cost to have an HVAC tech connect the lines and do the sign-off if I do the physical installation, hook up the power, etc. I may also move the outside unit, which would require an additional line set for about $100 (plus my time and a few supplies to move the 220V connection).

Right now, I'd lean toward a SEER14 unit rather than the SEER 16 model. The SEER 16 model would require the additional purchase and installation of a $100 expansion valve (which is not an entirely trouble-free item), and a hard-start cpacitor kit (necessitated by the expansion valve). It also comes with all kinds of telemetry which might be fun (per ERD50s new hobby of monitoring the HVAC unit's activity), but I really don't want any extra "functionality" that can break and/or cause trouble. I just want a cool house with controlled humidity, and we're completely happy with a simple AC unit.

 

[ERD50]

...

Meanwhile, ERD50, thanks for NOTHING! You have jinxed my home AC . I came home from trip and found that my AC was barely keeping the house at 75 degrees when the temp was 90 outside--was running constantly and would not get the house any cooler than 75. It's a 22 year old 2 ton Lennox, 11+ SEER ... .

Oh no! I feel your pain!

Hope it can be fixed for cheap, but at age 22 it may be near end-of-life? At least you got to 75, but running 100% it probably won't be able to keep up for long, and is probably effectively about a SEER 3?

Now I'm curious what causes most AC to fail. I've got re-fridges and freezers that run 24/7/365 (at ~ 50% duty cycle) and are still going at 25 to 30 years old (and they are not energy hogs). Are the seals different? My freezer has been in the unheated garage, so environment not so different from outside. So an AC with far fewer hours on it annually (for us northerners at least) ought to last. Of course they are larger units, more power, more everything.

-ERD50

 

[meierlde]

Oh no! I feel your pain!

Hope it can be fixed for cheap, but at age 22 it may be near end-of-life? At least you got to 75, but running 100% it probably won't be able to keep up for long, and is probably effectively about a SEER 3?

Now I'm curious what causes most AC to fail. I've got re-fridges and freezers that run 24/7/365 (at ~ 50% duty cycle) and are still going at 25 to 30 years old (and they are not energy hogs). Are the seals different? My freezer has been in the unheated garage, so environment not so different from outside. So an AC with far fewer hours on it annually (for us northerners at least) ought to last. Of course they are larger units, more power, more everything.

-ERD50

One difference is that the fridges in general are not exposed to the weather. An unheated garage does in general not get precipitation and the like. Second the fridge system is sealed at the factory with welded joints thruout, whereas the lineset to outside unit and inside coil are just brazed.