Incandescent, CFL, LED, Halogen

I've yet to have an LED bulb die prematurely on me. As for CFLs, there are times when I bulb stop working I am sure it didn't last the 7 years as mentioned on the packaging. I do think though the choice isn't an either or thing.

For example, most LEDs aren't recommended for lights with enclosed covers.

But when I can, I'd go with LED and then ponder that those bulbs will probably outlast me. :blush:
 
I have thought about getting LED bulbs for a while, but with all the improvement being made and the falling prices, and the long life of these bulbs, it seems prudent to wait a while and use up my supply of CFL bulbs. Also, I am waiting for a reasonably priced LED that gives the same amount of light as a 100 watt incandescent balb.
 
Even at current prices, LED's have the lowest life cycle cost, then CFL's (about 2X LED) and then incandescent bulbs (5-10X life cycle cost vs LED). However, that may be of little value for bulbs that aren't used as often. Other considerations:
  • CFL's contain mercury, an environmental issue, LED's do not
  • CFL's are more sensitive to cycling than LED's, cycling shortens the ultimate life of CFL's considerably more
  • CFL's are more sensitive to humidity, see reports on CFL lifespan in bathrooms
  • CFL's are far more breakable than LED's
  • CFL's take several minutes to warm up and provide full output, LED's are instantaneous by comparison
  • We bought premium and bargain CFL's, but they all gave a yellow cast compared to the LED's we've had so far, noticeably. Could be we bought the wrong types, but the difference was dramatic.
  • While it takes a while (years) to breakeven, utility savings begin immediately using LED's, less so CFL's vs incandescent bulbs
One of many sources of info: Compare: LED Lights vs CFL vs Incandescent Lighting Chart
 
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Two thoughts on CFL and LED bulbs and their life expectancy.

According to articles I have read, some of the cheap ones will fail early not because the the light emitting part of the bulb fails but because the electronics that control the bulb fail. I have had CFL's that have lasted barely 2x the life of an incandescent bulb and others that have worked for many times that.

Second thought: I understand (please correct me if this is wrong) that the published lifespan of the bulb is an statistical midpoint. They line up 100 bulbs, turn them on and when the 50th bulb burns out, that midpoint becomes the expected lifespan of the bulb. So, if you are unlucky enough to buy a bulb that is in the first few percent to fail you will wonder why you bothered. OTOH, if you buy a bulb that is in the last few percent to fail, you will congratulate yourself on a very wise purchase.
 
What you won't find on the CFL package...
CFL lifespans are based on a three-hour run time per start. In other words, during CFL testing, bulbs are cycled on for three hours and off for 20 minutes until half the samples have failed. If you turn them on frequently for less than three hours at a time — as I do in my bathroom — you’re in for a surprise.

“Incandescents [and LED's] are somewhat immune to the number of times you switch them on and off,” Leslie says, “but the electrodes inside a CFL are stressed with each burst of starting voltage, and will eventually degrade and fail. With a CFL, the number of starts is the primary factor for determining how long it will last; the number of burning hours is secondary. A CFL rated at 10,000 hours in the three-hour-on standard test might last only 4,000 hours if left on for only 15 minutes per start.”
 
I noticed a drop in my electrical bill when I replaced just two outdoor lights (that stay on all night long) with CFL's. I've since started to replace the interior lights, especially the ones that stay on a lot.

At my last house, I replaced about 72 bulbs with CFL type bulbs in just a few weeks. Six months later, at the end of my billing year, I got a zero bill. i.e. one month free, I had level billing. My monthly fixed payment was also adjusted down. At the end of the next year, the same thing happened since it was now a full 12 months with CFLs. Two year utility savings was about $380 at a time when my total electric cost was 9 cents per kWh. My electric per kWh is just a little higher now. But, from another thread on this forum, I have seen that I am on the low end of electric cost. I would imagine some on this forum could save quite a bit of coin by switching if they have not already.

ETA: had to correct the total electric cost, my original figure was generation cost only.
 
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Our DD replaced all the lights in their home about 2 years ago with CFL and saw a good drop in their electric bill.

The best explanation I have seen on all this is here: https://www.stearnselectric.org/files/2613/8912/3323/CERTs_RightLightGuide_v2.pdf

One thing I would add to that pdf is a discussion of color temperature. They tell you to buy Soft White or Warm bulbs for general residential lighting, but not all CFL bulbs are labelled that way. 2700-3000 degrees kelvin is Soft White or Warm bulbs. Historically these low temp CFLs were the cheapest, not sure if that is true anymore.

3500 is bright white, maybe good for a bathroom mirror (unless you don't want to see what you look like, then laundry room or garage). 4500 is a bright white reading lamp. 5000 is noon, summer sun outside no clouds.

Higher temp is often described as bluer in appearance.
 
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The top table in that link assumes 30 light bulbs burning 5 hours a day each. I've got just a few that I might burn that much, and I've converted them to CFL or they are on dimmers and (hopefully) drawing less power. The others are only on a few minutes a day. Maybe others turn more lights on. My neighbors do comment that they often can't tell when I'm home, though in part that's because none of my most used rooms are on the front side.
 
I think the concern over mercury in CFLs is a scare tactic. I used to play with balls of mercury when I was a kid and it never affected me. never affected me neveraffectedme.
Uh huh.

Did you weight 7 pounds at the time?
 
Uh huh.

Did you weight 7 pounds at the time?

When I worked at a chem lab while in college, the old farts (aka guys not much older than me now) used to tell of a prank they pulled with mercury. They claimed they would place several drops into someones coffee. Many hours after drinking the coffee the person would have an "accident" because the urethral sphincter was often not strong enough to handle the weight of the mercury.

It could be they were just pulling my leg, but they seemed serious about it. And they were concerned about the health impacts they may have subjected upon themselves and their targets.
 
Huge difference between the liquid and the vapors of mercury:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_poisoning#Elemental_mercury

... (liquid metallic mercury) is poorly absorbed by ingestion and skin contact. It is hazardous due to its potential to release mercury vapor. Animal data indicate less than 0.01% of ingested mercury is absorbed through the intact gastrointestinal tract, ....

.... In humans, approximately 80% of inhaled mercury vapor is absorbed via the respiratory tract, where it enters the circulatory system and is distributed throughout the body.[25] Chronic exposure by inhalation, even at low concentrations in the range 0.7–42 μg/m3, has been shown in case control studies to cause effects such as tremors, impaired cognitive skills, and sleep disturbance in workers

-ERD50
 
And they were concerned about the health impacts they may have subjected upon themselves and their targets.
Precisely. I think marginalizing the risks is foolish, but failing to recognize that the risks are more extreme for children and especially pets is of especially great concern.
 
Does anyone remember Minimata disease? Of course, this was mercury poisoning on a grand scale, far worse than exposure to a few broken light bulbs.

The Poisoning of Minamata
 
We have had about 30 LEDs in place for about 5 years. 1 has failed in that time. A few CFLs and all the remaining incandescants.
Cycling and time in use are big factors. If you have an incandescant and never turn it on, it will last forever:)

I like the durability, longevity, and quality of light from LEDs.
While CFLs us a lot less power than incandescants, LEDs do use about 20% less power than CFLs.
 
I was being somewhat facetious about mercury, but I think that the hazard from CFLs has been overblown, similar to asbestos. It is a long way from grinding asbestos in a ship yard 8 hours a day with no respirator, to shuddering over an undisturbed, well wrapped and sealed pipe in one's basement.

Maybe I'm wrong though. Anyone seen any data indicating a big flare up of mercury poisoning due to CFLs? :confused:
 
I replaced most incandescents with CFLs about seven years ago. Have had one failure, in a flood-light fixture in a bathroom. Have LED under-cabinet lights in the kitchen.

Hard to pin down the exact energy savings, since I installed radiant barrier, and my DS moved out, all about the same time. But the summer temps around here, and the resulting A/C bills, mean that I save both on lighting, an admittedly small part of my energy usage, and also save on the lower heat output of CFLs.
 
I was being somewhat facetious about mercury, but I think that the hazard from CFLs has been overblown, similar to asbestos. It is a long way from grinding asbestos in a ship yard 8 hours a day with no respirator, to shuddering over an undisturbed, well wrapped and sealed pipe in one's basement.

Maybe I'm wrong though. Anyone seen any data indicating a big flare up of mercury poisoning due to CFLs? :confused:

I haven't seen any real data on mercury poisoning.

Consider that CFLs made after 2008 have much less mercury than older ones. In a 13 watt CFL the amount ranges from 0.17 milligrams to 3.5 milligrams. California and Europe mandated bulbs to be less than 2.5 milligrams in 2013. Since California is a major consumer in the US, this will drive most US suppliers below this level. The Mercury Myth: How Much Mercury Do CFLs Actually Contain? | EarthTechling

When a CFL breaks the mercury in it becomes a liquid very fast. Due to the vapor pressure of mercury it then releases mercury in to the air very slowly. It can take up to 2.5 months to release it all. Breaking a CFL and not cleaning it up immediately is a bad idea. And as others have pointed out small varmits like kids and pets are at greatest risk to exposure. See proper cleanup and disposal at Cleaning Up a Broken CFL | Compact Fluorescent Light Bulbs (CFLs) | US EPA

Even when CFLs had up to 5 milligrams of mercury their use reduced the mercury released into the atmosphere due to burning less coal to power them as opposed to using incandescent bulbs. Just depends on where your electricity comes from.

But the great news is that CFLs are/were just a stepping stone on the way to LED lights which provide the energy savings and no mercury.


ETA: I should have pointed out that the comment about the "mercury in it becomes a liquid very fast", assumes you break the bulb when it's on. If it's off when you break it the mercury is already liquid. Current mercury amounts are so small that if it was all collected in one place it would not cover the head of a ballpoint pen. You need about 5 milligrams to do that. In other words, you are not going to see it if you break a bulb.
 
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We have a half bath adjacent to the kitchen. This bathroom has a 6 bulb light fixture above the mirror. Family members are not well trained to turn off the lights when they leave a room.

When I had incandescent bulbs in the bathroom the room would get unreasonably warm and the bulbs would last only about a year or less. I replaced them with CFLs and that help the heat issue.

Next I replaced the light switch with a motion sensor switch with a variable time delay to turn them off. This caused a flickering of the CFLs when no one was in the bathroom and the garage door was open allowing daylight to reflect into the room. This flickering, I think caused a high failure rate of the CFLs.

When LED bulbs of the needed luminosity became available and affordable, I replaced the CFLs with 60w equivalent Cree bulbs.

The flickering stopped but two of the 6 LED bulbs failed within 6 months.

I have replaced the motion sensor light switch with a normal light switch and am waiting. The room does not get warm from the LEDs and I turn off the light when I see it has been left on.

I continue to attempt training family members but I am not optimistic of success.

Electricity usage today is less than before since the majority of the light sockets in my house have LEDs in them.
 
Maybe I'm wrong though. Anyone seen any data indicating a big flare up of mercury poisoning due to CFLs? :confused:
Speaking for myself, I wasn't concerned about direct poisoning, I was wondering about the mercury in landfills and groundwater, but that will probably take many generations to manifest.
 
Speaking for myself, I wasn't concerned about direct poisoning, I was wondering about the mercury in landfills and groundwater, but that will probably take many generations to manifest.

This is what I would think is the biggest problem with CFLs. Improper disposal. It's still less mercury in the environment than burning coal to run incandescent bulbs.

But it's a catch 22. You scare people into proper disposal and then they think the CFL bulbs are so dangerous that they keep using incandescent bulbs and cause more mercury to be released into the environment. On they opposite side you convince people they are less of a threat and they start tossing them in the garbage which is still bad.
 
... But the great news is that CFLs are/were just a stepping stone on the way to LED lights which provide the energy savings and no mercury. ...

Agreed, and I just did a little research that indicates that LED efficiency improvements are still ongoing. The LED 'bulb' I just bought to try out is ~ 63 lumens per watt (850L/13.5W), and CREE has lab samples of LEDs at 300L/W - lab is different from 'on the shelf', but at least there is some room to grow, and predictions indicate we will see ~ 2X improvement in the next 10 years. Now that has diminishing returns on energy savings, but it directly relates to heat generation in the 'bulb', and if heat is cut in half, cost comes down (half as many LEDs for the same light), weight and size come down, reliability goes up.

So yes, I think CFLs will fall out of favor in a few years. I wish they'd drop the stupid filament ban, as I'd rather put a super-cheap, reliable filament bulb in my low use sockets than a CFL, and LEDs are still too expensive for those sockets. The 'loop-hole' is to use 'rough service' bulbs in those sockets, those are not banned - and they are less efficient than standard filament bulbs. :facepalm:




We have a half bath adjacent to the kitchen. This bathroom has a 6 bulb light fixture above the mirror. Family members are not well trained to turn off the lights when they leave a room.

When I had incandescent bulbs in the bathroom the room would get unreasonably warm and the bulbs would last only about a year or less. I replaced them with CFLs and that help the heat issue.

Next I replaced the light switch with a motion sensor switch with a variable time delay to turn them off. This caused a flickering of the CFLs when no one was in the bathroom and the garage door was open allowing daylight to reflect into the room. This flickering, I think caused a high failure rate of the CFLs.

When LED bulbs of the needed luminosity became available and affordable, I replaced the CFLs with 60w equivalent Cree bulbs.

The flickering stopped but two of the 6 LED bulbs failed within 6 months. ....

Here's a work-around for those types of motion detectors or timers - if you replace 1 or 2 of the CFLs or LEDs with a low wattage filament bulb, that will very likely make the motion detector/timer work properly and eliminate the flickering. Basically, those devices need a small constant load on them when they are 'off' - CFLs and LEDs don't provide the same kind of simple resistive load as a filament does.

That flickering is bad for the device, and bad for the CFL/LEDs. But 1 or 2 small filaments should be enough to provide an 'off' current, and damp out the reactive loads from the CFL/LEDs.

Two thoughts on CFL and LED bulbs and their life expectancy.

According to articles I have read, some of the cheap ones will fail early not because the the light emitting part of the bulb fails but because the electronics that control the bulb fail. I have had CFL's that have lasted barely 2x the life of an incandescent bulb and others that have worked for many times that. ...

Yes, there are electrolytic capacitors that degrade with heat. They may have a life expectancy of only 2000 hours in some designs. Higher life caps cost more, and there is a cost war going on, so it's hard to make an informed purchase, but don't expect anywhere near those 25,000 hour ratings...

Second thought: I understand (please correct me if this is wrong) that the published lifespan of the bulb is an statistical midpoint. They line up 100 bulbs, turn them on and when the 50th bulb burns out, that midpoint becomes the expected lifespan of the bulb. So, if you are unlucky enough to buy a bulb that is in the first few percent to fail you will wonder why you bothered. OTOH, if you buy a bulb that is in the last few percent to fail, you will congratulate yourself on a very wise purchase.

It's even worse than that, far worse. Yes, it is based on a median figure, but that figure is NOT based on how long the bulb lasts. It is a measure, based on extrapolation of much shorter test times, as to when half the 'bulbs' will reach 70% brightness. But the test is done over a shorter time, so they may not be hitting the failure modes of the other components.

Those capacitors are fairly well characterized, they have a good idea of how long they will last at elevated temperatures, so they can make reasonable predictions of bulb life based on the components and the temperature they see in an LED bulb. But they are not doing that, they are using this stupid 70% dimming value.

-ERD50
 
And a little geeky 'fun' info - our standard filament bulbs in the US are more efficient than the standard filament bulbs in Europe! With their higher voltage, the filament needs to be longer, and needs more supports, and each support draws away the heat that is needed to create light.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescent_light_bulb#Current_and_resistance

Lamps designed for different voltages have different luminous efficacy. For example, a 100-watt, 120-volt lamp will produce about 17.1 lumens per watt. A lamp with the same rated lifetime but designed for 230 V would produce only around 12.8 lumens per watt, and a similar lamp designed for 30 volts (train lighting) would produce as much as 19.8 lumens per watt.[40] Lower voltage lamps have a thicker filament, for the same power rating. They can run hotter for the same lifetime before the filament evaporates.

The wires used to support the filament make it mechanically stronger, but remove heat, creating another tradeoff between efficiency and long life. Many general-service 120-volt lamps use no additional support wires, but lamps designed for "rough service" or "vibration service" may have as many as five. Low-voltage lamps have filaments made of heavier wire and do not require additional support wires.

Very low voltages are inefficient since the lead wires would conduct too much heat away from the filament, so the practical lower limit for incandescent lamps is 1.5 volts. Very long filaments for high voltages are fragile, and lamp bases become more difficult to insulate, so lamps for illumination are not made with rated voltages over 300 volts.[40] Some infrared heating elements are made for higher voltages, but these use tubular bulbs with widely separated terminals.

-ERD50
 
And a little geeky 'fun' info - our standard filament bulbs in the US are more efficient than the standard filament bulbs in Europe! With their higher voltage, the filament needs to be longer, and needs more supports, and each support draws away the heat that is needed to create light.
That's interesting, thanks. Despite the inefficiencies with incandescent bulbs, I'd bet the 230V service produces lower line losses/waste heat overall than the 110V US setup.
I was using an clothes iron in a GE hotel room and was surprised by the impressive arcing when I (inadvisedly) pulled the plug from the wall without assuring it was turned off. There's a reason the poles are so far apart on those plugs!
 
That's interesting, thanks. Despite the inefficiencies with incandescent bulbs, I'd bet the 230V service produces lower line losses/waste heat overall than the 110V US setup.
...

I doubt there's much difference. I'm pretty sure most European homes are single phase 230, while most US homes are 110 two phase, which is really just distributed as 220V with a center tap - so very similar in that regard. And most of the distance covered is done at higher voltages in both cases.

The losses internally in the home are minor. A 100W bulb, 250' from the panel (500' of 14 ga wire) would lose 0.86% in the home wiring (1.25 ohms in wire / 144 ohms in bulb - I used 120V for that calc). I'd also assume that they use the next smaller ga wire size in Europe, since currents are lower for the same power, so even these very small losses are probably in the same ballpark (pitch?).

-ERD50
 
We have a half bath adjacent to the kitchen. This bathroom has a 6 bulb light fixture above the mirror. Family members are not well trained to turn off the lights when they leave a room.

When I had incandescent bulbs in the bathroom the room would get unreasonably warm and the bulbs would last only about a year or less. I replaced them with CFLs and that help the heat issue.

Next I replaced the light switch with a motion sensor switch with a variable time delay to turn them off. This caused a flickering of the CFLs when no one was in the bathroom and the garage door was open allowing daylight to reflect into the room. This flickering, I think caused a high failure rate of the CFLs.

When LED bulbs of the needed luminosity became available and affordable, I replaced the CFLs with 60w equivalent Cree bulbs.

The flickering stopped but two of the 6 LED bulbs failed within 6 months

You need motion sensor switches that are specifically compatible with CFL or LED bulbs. There are several available as well as dimmers and timers.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005WM392C/ref=twister_B00IJRIQMU
 
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