Is the American Dream still alive and well

[bUU]

Several younger colleagues with a couple of kids ...their plan
1) community college for 2 years - live at home
2) local state university junior and senior years - live at home
3) reliable older car think Toyota / part time work.

All in cost $25k -
Debt at graduation...$0

That's great for them. Roughly 80% of college graduates aren't as fortunate as that, to have such an opportunity to gain a college degree in a field suited to their skills and walk away debt free. Costs beyond what money students can put towards school themselves has increased 25% over the last seven years, to an average of almost $30K in debt. The increase in college debt is attributable mostly to a reduction in grants, and an increase in costs far beyond the increase in wages a student can earn for jobs they can get while furthering their education. Such debt is a new encumbrance on the ability for young people to break out of the cycle of poverty they were born into, assuming that they're even "lucky" enough to have the opportunity to incur such debt, i.e., gain such an opportunity to enter a worthy career path.

Another interesting trend is internships. When I was in college, a few schools required practical internships for graduation. As a result, the internships I considered all paid decently. Required, unpaid practical internships are apparently much more common now. Internships represent yet another new financial barrier to entry for many careers. It is outrageous that the law allows unpaid internships and internships that pay less than any reasonable conception of the cost of living. My niece applied for three internships (the limit imposed by her certifying agency). She's already received an offer from one, which is luckily located here in the Atlanta area. While she'll have to pay for her own transportation (all over the county, which is 70 miles long from north to south) to her job assignments, she'll at least be able to live rent free with her aunt and uncle, who will be happy to feed her. She'll make some money this summer, before the seven month internship begins, but it will barely be enough to cover incidentals for that period of time. She'll have to borrow money to pay for that which, if she were an actual employee, her employer would be obligated to pay.

 

[Gumby]

It's still there. The dynamics about how to maximize your chances to get there have changed, though.
. . . Every generation has its defining challenges. They may be different, not necessarily much easier or much tougher to overcome, and our inability to relate to the realities (actual or perceived) of others spurs us on to try to compare who had it worse, as if we want to be martyrs. Seems silly to me.

. . .

This is a great post, Ziggy. I have eight nephews and a niece who are all between 20 and 30, and I know several more young people in that age group (children of friends, young people at church, etc.) In observing their lives, I have seen some of them succeed and some of them fail (so far). Certainly, their challenges are different from the challenges that the majority of the members here faced when we were young, but I don't think you can say those challenges are either more or less difficult. Some things are better -- no one is getting drafted and sent to Vietnam. And some are worse -- college is vastly more expensive and more necessary. But the basic factors that lead to success are, in my opinion, the same as they have always been.

1. You need a goal -- looking at both my contemporaries and their children, I find that the ones who are most successful are the ones who have a goal to focus their efforts and help them tolerate the tough spots along the way. The ones who did not have any idea of what they wanted to do or who they wanted to be typically have wandered aimlessly from low paying job to low paying job.

2. You need to work really, really hard toward that goal -- I've seen it with both my own cohort and the young people I know. If you're not willing to work hard, you can't expect good things to come to you. Yes, I'm well aware that you can work hard and success may still elude you for a variety of exogenous factors, but if you don't work hard, it will almost certainly elude you.

3. You need to suck it up -- life is hard, and you need to be hard too. If you want success, you'll need to be willing to do the the things others won't do, to forego the pleasures others can't imagine doing without, and to get back up when you've been knocked down, as you most likely will be. Lying in the mud and whining about how hard your life is will never make it better.

4. You need to seize opportunity when it arises -- life will sometimes hand you a lucky moment. You need to be mentally prepared to take it and not let is pass by because you are too indifferent or afraid or because you didn't build a sufficient foundation to take advantage of that bit of luck.


Let me close with an observation about college costs, in two different eras.

In 1976, when I was a senior in high school, I told my parents, both of whom were high-school dropouts, that I wanted to go to college. They said "That's great. But we don't have any money, so you're on your own." At that point, it didn't matter whether college tuition cost was $5k a year or $60k a year, as I had zero money. If I wanted to go to college, I had to figure out how to make that happen. So I joined the Navy and they put me through the US Naval Academy. In return, I had to abstain from the whole sex, drugs and rock and roll aspect of college, and then, for five years afterward, cram my butt in a dank, dark, smelly submarine and go without sunlight, fresh air, fresh food or contact with the the outside world, including my family, for literally months at a time. It was nine years of work that was neither easy nor pleasant, but I did what I had to do to get where I wanted to be.

In about 2010, the son of my admin assistant graduated from high school. His single mother certainly could not afford to pay for any part of a college education and he faced the same wall that I faced 34 years before him. So he enlisted in the Marines and went to both Afghanistan and Iraq. As a recent veteran he now gets free tuition at any school he wants to attend in the Connecticut state university system. He also gets monthly checks from the GI Bill that pay his living expenses. Now he is going to college and working on the side. He did what he needed to do to get where he wanted to be.

 

[nun]

You can join the military to get free college. If you are opposed to the military, maybe you are opposed to making sacrifices too.

....... And maybe your opinion and feelings about the military has nothing to do at all with your ability or desire to make sacrifices to achieve your goals.

 

[nun]

In 1976, when I was a senior in high school, I told my parents, both of whom were high-school dropouts, that I wanted to go to college. They said "That's great. But we don't have any money, so you're on your own." At that point, it didn't matter whether college tuition cost was $5k a year or $60k a year, as I had zero money. If I wanted to go to college, I had to figure out how to make that happen. So I joined the Navy and they put me through the US Naval Academy. In return, I had to abstain from the whole sex, drugs and rock and roll aspect of college, and then, for five years afterward, cram my butt in a dank, dark, smelly submarine and go without sunlight, fresh air, fresh food or contact with the the outside world, including my family, for literally months at a time. It was nine years of work that was neither easy nor pleasant, but I did what I had to do to get where I wanted to be.

In the 1970s I was working hard to do well at my exams back in the UK as if I got good results I knew I'd get into a good University....education was socialized and I would pay no frees and get a stipend from the Government. I sacrificed an worked hard and in 1980 I was accepted the UK's equivalent of MIT. I didn't live like a monk, but I also worked very hard and ended up by getting my PhD in physics at age 25.

In the US I've known kids who got full scholarships to Harvard and others that couldn't afford the fees to state schools, didn't want to join the military and so went to community college when they had saved enough for a course and some that have been ripped off by for profit universities. There are lots of ways to get an education, but the increase in state university fees and the cost of loans is making it increasingly difficult for many.

 

[razztazz]

Originally Posted by Senator View Post
You can join the military to get free college. If you are opposed to the military, maybe you are opposed to making sacrifices too.

-----------------------------------

nun ....... And maybe your opinion and feelings about the military has nothing to do at all with your ability or desire to make sacrifices to achieve your goals.
________________

And maybe one isn't qualified for the military. I know if I were 17 today and had the eyesight I had in 1975 I would not be able to get in using today's medical standards. Back in 1975 they couldn't give the job away.

Also, why is everything always framed into some kind of forced "sacrifice" paradigm? And in the end those imposing the the sacrifice paradigm on those who are not like them as defined by them, dismiss any guarantees of success as "freedom"? The Rich always and everywhere relieve themselves of any need for sacrifice, and indeed, feel entitled to it.

Sacrifice is a tool of desperation used by those without better options. Man, that's progress!

 

[marko]

During my last year in high school (1970) a friend and I were talking about all the hippies in our class who were dropping out and planning to 'live off the land'.

He thought it was a great idea---for them! "All I see is less competition for the good jobs; while they're all out grooving in the woods we'll be taking the best opportunities, each one of them is one less ahead of me in the job line".

He's now the CFO of a megacorp software company (you've heard of them)

 

[marko]

I haven't read every post in detail here but there is a position that says that the ease of getting student loans has led to such inflated tuition prices. Sort of a vicious cycle if so.

I wonder how valid that argument might be.

 

[W2R]

Lying in the mud and whining about how hard your life is will never make it better.

If we had a Quote of the Day on this forum, I'd like to nominate the above. Great visual! And so true IMO.

 

[razztazz]

You are right. For you, the american dream will never be achieved. You have far to many excuses why you, or your niece, can never achieve it.

That's not what he aid. but your non-reply reply was spoken like a true I got Miner. Only when one controls all inputs and outcomes would they have no excuses. Since we are far from than the status quo romancers know, even if they cannot be caught admitting that,(because they do know it They are not stupid) the system, like all systems, had a certain failure rate. Not the People. The System. As well as having a certain False Positive rate. Hard work? What's that? But wtf? I'm successful anyway. Successful is never defined as the working and the trying. It is always defined as the stuff or money you have. And that, like everything else, depends on far more things than One's own inputs to the exclusion of all else.

 

[Bestwifeever]

A long time ago I heard the saying "energy is dynasty" as a predictor of success and that seems to be true of every generation. The opportunities and challenges will be different but those who face them will survive.

 

[cooch96]

My viewpoint is decidedly regional, but if you can't find a job swinging a hammer, you aren't willing to travel. The NW is dying for Union carpenter apprentices. $19/HR with plenty of upside. No student debt needed.

Take care of your body, be smart, be safe, and be willing to travel where the work is, and that's an upper middle class career. If you're above average and have a pleasant working temperament, then you won't even have to travel; there'll always be work for you.

I know a lot of old carpenters. The smart ones buy undeveloped land and build houses on the weekends. After a couple decades of swinging hammers 6-7 days a week and you could be worth millions. I can only think of two examples like that, the rest derailed themselves with bad marriages or the bottle.

 

[razztazz]

A long time ago I heard the saying "energy is dynasty" as a predictor of success and that seems to be true of every generation. The opportunities and challenges will be different but those who face them will survive.

Nope. More Robospeak. Not everyone gets the opportunities. And just because one faces challenges does not mean they will survive. That would be what you call survivor bias. Many, perhaps most, who knows... will just get wiped out. And besides survive is not success unless you have a very low bar. Not a ringing endorsement for hard work. More like a nod to getting lucky

 

[youbet]

. Not everyone gets the opportunities.

But that's always been true. It's not any worse today than yesterday. The American Dream is still here as much as it ever was. Perhaps even more so.

 

[Music Lover]

My viewpoint is decidedly regional, but if you can't find a job swinging a hammer, you aren't willing to travel. The NW is dying for Union carpenter apprentices. $19/HR with plenty of upside. No student debt needed.

Take care of your body, be smart, be safe, and be willing to travel where the work is, and that's an upper middle class career. If you're above average and have a pleasant working temperament, then you won't even have to travel; there'll always be work for you.

I know a lot of old carpenters. The smart ones buy undeveloped land and build houses on the weekends. After a couple decades of swinging hammers 6-7 days a week and you could be worth millions. I can only think of two examples like that, the rest derailed themselves with bad marriages or the bottle.

There are other added benefits...you build a network of people in other trades and never have to pay "retail" when you need a tradesperson.

My cousin is an electrician and built his own house. He knew people in other trades from the job and got heavy discounts or simply traded labour with others. End result, he built a house for a fraction of the cost and became debt free that much faster.

 

[target2019]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dream

Since we are free to believe what we want, American Dream has different interpretations. I think it is implicit that you must be permitted to dream, and that clearly does not happen for everyone born here. But is is attainable for the majority.

I wasn't looking for American Dream, but found a very comfortable life due to values, education, work (sometimes hard), and a bit of luck.

 

[Senator]

And maybe one isn't qualified for the military. I know if I were 17 today and had the eyesight I had in 1975 I would not be able to get in using today's medical standards. Back in 1975 they couldn't give the job away.

Also, why is everything always framed into some kind of forced "sacrifice" paradigm? And in the end those imposing the the sacrifice paradigm on those who are not like them as defined by them, dismiss any guarantees of success as "freedom"? The Rich always and everywhere relieve themselves of any need for sacrifice, and indeed, feel entitled to it.

Sacrifice is a tool of desperation used by those without better options. Man, that's progress!

If you think you will be better than 'average', by being average, good luck to you. Good fortune comes to those that perform better than their peers.

It does indeed take some sacrifice to get ahead. Working longer hours and more days. I spent many weeks working 100+ hours a week doing rental rehabs and my FT job. It is now paying off. I risked a lot too, taking out large mortgages where it may have ruined me financially if I failed.

So, you do not have to sacrifice anything. My first groups of renters never sacrificed anything, and they lived the American dream. They had their housing, food, transportation, pocket money and plenty of support groups. And they 'retired' at the early age of 18.

 

[hnzw_rui]

So, you do not have to sacrifice anything. My first groups of renters never sacrificed anything, and they lived the American dream. They had their housing, food, transportation, pocket money and plenty of support groups. And they 'retired' at the early age of 18.

That's just the thing. Living on welfare can sometimes be more lucrative than working a median wage job.

 

[Souschef]

Fascinating Discussion

My son, who graduated from UCLA with some degree or other, ended up taking classes to become a video editor, and is now doing quite well. For a while he worked as a bicycle mechanic, then a movie camera repairer for Panavision before becoming an editor.
In my case, when i went to college in the early 50's tuition when was low, and graduated with an Engineering degree. i went back to school twice, both paid by my employer.
If you have ever watched Shark Tank, there are still people out there with ideas and willing to work their fannies off.

 

[bUU]

I haven't read every post in detail here but there is a position that says that the ease of getting student loans has led to such inflated tuition prices. Sort of a vicious cycle if so. I wonder how valid that argument might be.

It's part of a lot of very valid arguments that the things that help one's self the most are actually making more difficult for everyone overall. The ascendancy of a college education being the default means that you'll have far more college educated people than the economy needs. The only set of people who are guaranteed to benefit from that are those in the college industry. The individuals who gain a college education end up with far greater competition for the limited jobs that capitalize on that incurred expense, which means lower salaries, and of course the limited number of jobs means a higher level of underemployment. So how are people being advised to confront the situation? Incur more expense to chase a higher degree. Then that'll become the default, and all the benefits of being one of the few would be lost. If society valued each person and the work each person did within a more reasonable, tighter range, the incentive to excel would be retained by the out of proportion impetus to pursue specific paths would not be.

A long time ago I heard the saying "energy is dynasty" as a predictor of success and that seems to be true of every generation.

Only because history rewrites reality, defining that done by those who were successful as "energy" and that done by others characterized in disparaging ways. The more relevant sayings are "to the victors goes the spoils" and "history is written by victors".

But that's always been true. It's not any worse today than yesterday.

Yes, it is. Again: If you plot out a goodly number of relevant metrics on how the economy treats those less fortunate you'll see them peaking in the 1990s, and then declining.

Good fortune comes to those that perform better than their peers.

There's a difference between there being a bonus of "good fortune" and there being a dichotomy between "have" and "have not", i.e., can afford Medicare Supplement Insurance and cannot. That dichotomy is correlated with life and death. [Sources: Am J Public Health. 2004 May; 94(5): 778–782. Am J Manag Care. 2015;21:S165-S172; et. al.]

 

[Bestwifeever]

D'oh--spellcheck changed my favorite saying--it's "Energy is destiny," NOT dynasty. Although I sort of like it both ways.

 

[kcowan]

It does indeed take some sacrifice to get ahead. Working longer hours and more days. I spent many weeks working 100+ hours a week doing rental rehabs and my FT job. It is now paying off. I risked a lot too, taking out large mortgages where it may have ruined me financially if I failed...

Yes I think the role that taking risks plays is vastly underrated in discussions of finding success.

Those of us who take calculated risks that work out are often classed as lucky. It might seem lucky in hindsight, but there was no way it seemed lucky when we were taking the plunge.

 

[Senator]

Yes I think the role that taking risks plays is vastly underrated in discussions of finding success.

Those of us who take calculated risks that work out are often classed as lucky. It might seem lucky in hindsight, but there was no way it seemed lucky when we were taking the plunge.

I saw Jeno Paulucci speak once in grad school. He is the founder of Chun King Chinese food line.

He was talking about risk taking and following your dreams. He said a lot of people discouraged him from starting a Chinese food business. I remember his words.

"Can you imagine how much discouragement I faced, a son of Italian immigrants, opening up a Chinese restaurant, in Northern Minnesota".

And he went on to be come a multi-millionaire, many times over. He had a lot of great success and risk stories during that hour. He did not mince words, and never backed down from opposition or aversion.

The American Dream is very much alive, some people have a distorted way of how they think they should be able to achieve it. Or whether it should be guaranteed.

 

[6miths]

Not precisely sure what the AD is. I suspect that for my ancestors it was that their children would have a 'better' life than they did. I agree that the prosperity and security of the latter half of the 20th century was the result of much chaos and turmoil that hopefully won't ever be repeated. Going forward it would seem that things are going to be tougher and in the many countries already have been for some time. Social mobility in the US has been quite low for quite awhile and I would think that this would be seen as the opposite of the AD. It is quite difficult to move up in the world just on the basis of hard work and will of spirit in the US. Take a privilege survey if you want a humbling experience. Many of us had a very significant head start on other members of our society and it seems that conditions have changed so that over the last 30 years this head start has become much more important. On a brighter note, if you are in the top 10% things do look pretty good for your children. Unless of course the whole thing comes tumbling down.

 

[DrRoy]

There is a position that says that the ease of getting student loans has led to such inflated tuition prices. Sort of a vicious cycle if so.

I wonder how valid that argument might be.

It is completely valid, and is also an example of unintended consequences of government involvement in the marketplace. Lower cost student loans were intended to make it easier for people to attend college. Reducing the immediate cost to students made it easier for universities to raise the price, which made the students have to borrow more. The debt burden makes many worse off than if they had not gone to college.


Sent from my iPhone using Early Retirement Forum

 

[Senator]

It is quite difficult to move up in the world just on the basis of hard work and will of spirit in the US.

It is difficult, as it should be, but 100% achievable. As someone who came from a single parent family, watching my mother work two full time jobs and a part time job at the same time, it can be done. For quite a while, our refrigerator was a Coleman cooler that was replenished with ice periodically.

There are many things you get today that are just assumed and were not available in yesterdays 'American Dream'. Cleaner air and water. Safer roads and cars. Maintenance free siding. No lead paint or fuel. More efficient farming practices with higher yields. Healthcare that can repair or replace about any part in the body.
Easier access to the grocery stores, 'free' calls around the world, etc.

These were just pipe dreams only a few years ago. Now they are just assumed and no one thinks about them.