Mac or PC?

setab said:
We are still referring to MAC vs. PC, right? I just find "bang for the buck" to be an interesting phrase in this context. :D

setab

Bang for a buck, isn't that from the place where you can 'live for a king for pennies'?
 
I have learned (on CNBC I think). That Apple has problems with MAC reliability. If you opt for MAC get an extended warranty.
 
perinova said:
I have learned (on CNBC I think). That Apple has problems with MAC reliability. If you opt for MAC get an extended warranty.

That belies everything I have read and experienced. Got anything more specific? I'd like to learn more

I've never bought any extended warranty - just gave away a 7 year old Mac laptop which was working fine, just not powerful enough for modern applications.
 
Does Apple still make their own machines? I thought they outsourced to Taiwan like everybody else.

link
 
I dont think they have any specific reliability issues, although I'm extremely unfond of passively cooled machines like the imacs. Had they done a little more for the disk drive cooling I'd have likely not had the problems I did. They had a few problems with some slot loading cd/dvd's and of course the battery problems everyone had.

The laptops are pretty well made, whoever makes them.

Their service and support are usually in the top 2. That having been said Dell beats them out on some surveys and Dell's support sucks.

There are some lousy PC machines too. Some vendors cheap out on the power supply, motherboard and/or the memory and then the customers blame all the glitches on the operating system.

That having been said, I saw nothing in the macs I've opened up to inspire me to pay a premium for them. The quality was perfectly good, but nothing really that great.
 
Cute Fuzzy Bunny said:
The quality was perfectly good, but nothing really that great.

Yeah, but they think differently different, right? :)
 
Fishing ourselves from the religious stuff, the reality is that for a little web browsing and some word processing, the OP would likely notice almost no difference between the two.

In fact, a five year old version of either machine would do just nicely.

Price out a basic dell machine and a basic mac and see what you like about them. The inner workings are probably irrelevant.
 
I knew this thread would evolve into religion after a few posts :p

Although I use linux on my main computer, I have a Mac G4 powerbook and several Dells (laptops and desktops) running Windows XP. I write software for all three operating systems: Mac/OSX, Linux and Windows.

After extensive years of working with all the different machines, my consistent recommendation is to go with a Windows PC. The Mac is a great piece of hardware, but the operating system is years behind Windows. Yes, at one time it was years ahead, but not anymore. The zealots who push Macs just haven't looked at how advanced Windows is nowadays. Everything the Mac has, Windows has and often better and easier to use.

I think your productivity will be much higher on the Windows PC than on the Mac. It is painful for me to watch Mac afficionadas try to do simple things because it takes them forever what with all the mouse clicks and all.
 
Cute Fuzzy Bunny said:
Fishing ourselves from the religious stuff, the reality is that for a little web browsing and some word processing, the OP would likely notice almost no difference between the two.

There will be a HUGE difference web browsing. Many web sites do not work with Safari and IE on a Mac or worked in a retarded way. But don't take my word for it, go try a Mac and see for yourself. Of course, Mac users don't know what they are missing because they have Macs!
 
The main reason for owning a computer is to run programs or software. Software today is complex and requires lots resources of capital to succeed.

So, a developer must always choose a platform for the developed software. Unix/Linux, Mac, or WinTel? Market share almost always dictates the final decision.

As far as viruses and malware are concerned, the same principle applies. The perpetrators, too, want to create the most damage to as many people as possible.

I owned a Mac too, the first Mac with floppy in the early 80s. I loved it, but can not find software to run. My IBM PC at that time looked completely out-of-date next to the Mac, but it was useful.

So, if you decide to buy a Mac, make sure all the software you need are available and up to your standard. One thing I keep hearing from Mac users is: "Oh, I also have a PC for other tasks". I am not aware of the reverse.

Last but not least is cost. Mac hardware, software, accessories, parts are more expensive.
 
I grew up on PCs, programmed with PCs, taught with PCs, use PCs at work, so that's why my family has 5 Macs at home. You want to simplify your life in retirement and get as much done as possible when you want to work. Yes, Macs are more expensive, but they are virtually virus-proof and security updates can be downloaded and installed automatically for you. Most of them come with a boatload of installed software, including Appleworks, which saves documents in Word format for the Gates side of the world. It also prints to PDF, so anybody can read your document if they have Adobe (free) Reader. My wife and 3 kids all use Macs. The boys have wireless laptops for school. My daughter became a convert once I handed down my eMac when I upgraded to a G5 and her PC had clunked out.

You've seen all those cute little Mac commercials with the hip guy poking fun at the Gates clone - ALL TRUE. Mac makes Web life and communication so much easier. I have much more fun with the things I enjoy instead of worrying about how to be compatible with an entire group of people trying to figure out how to use, protect, and optimize their machine. Plug it into a cable or DSL modem and it practically configures itself! You only have to answer 3 questions about your Internet service name, your netwok login and password, and BAM - Connected!

I could go on, but I think you get the picture. There are enough Mac users here, that you can get an operating tip now and then if you need one.
Actually, just do the 10-minute tutorial that comes up the first time you run your machine and you're up to speed and on your way.
 
shoe said:
I grew up on PCs, programmed with PCs, taught with PCs, use PCs at work, so that's why my family has 5 Macs at home. You want to simplify your life in retirement and get as much done as possible when you want to work. Yes, Macs are more expensive, but they are virtually virus-proof ...

Virtually virus-proof? I would like to know the technology enabling this feature.

No one or only few tries to do harm to Macs, simply because it's such a small minor community, not because it's virus-proof.

One more thing: There are programs you can buy for your Mac that emulate a Wintel environment, but I don't think one exists for the PC.
 
There actually are a few emulators that can run PPC mac software on an x86 platform. Of course, plain old osx for the x86 platform would work on almost any intel platform that fit the specs, providing you get by the platform check at the beginning...which of course some folks have figured out.
 
ooo I knew this would eventually come around again if CFB came back.
(He probably knew I would come out of the woodwork as well! ;) ;)).

This seems to be one of his HAIRBALLS:
people with Mac's who dont have anything loaded and are pretty sure they're still quite safe have a very bad surprise coming to them, sooner or later.

Sigh. Yes, my computer MIGHT get struck by lightning. But so what? It's only a computer.

I might get a virus, but I have never had one and I won't get one tomorrow.
In the meantime, your PC will be reduced to a doorstop if you let your guard down and get off the computer-defense treadmill.
I have spent ZERO extra time and money on the issue, while you have spent lots...

Calculate every minute of your life that you have devoted to anti-viruses and firewalls and spyware and blue screens and so on and tally it up. What's your hourly rate? I will bet the farm that I could buy myself the top-of-the-line Mac Pro and their biggest cinema display with what you've 'invested' in wasted time in your PCs and still have money to burn.

I am thrilled beyond words to have had 20+ years of working with Macs. They have all performed excellently; the older ones would go out to pasture as print servers and are still going strong. One or two bum hard drives after years + years of hard daily use of multiple macs.. so what?

Macs just work*. I don't care if it's a "run" that might end. I'm Enjoying the Here and Now!!!

If you don't need a specialized program for work and you're not addicted to some particular game, you will avoid infinite headaches by just getting a Mac and a printer and plugging them in. 'Wa la'! as they say..

*Of course on a piece-by-piece basis there could be lemon machines, but I'm talking about the underlying concept and design that makes them people-centric and not making people run around like chickens with their heads cut off with not-ready-for-primetime software and hideous device-compatibility nightmares.

It's possible the all-in-one form factors have more issues. I prefer the idea of the separate box plus monitor. My almost-2-y.o. Mini is awesome, and so tiny! It's sitting next to my old G4 which is probably 20x the volume and 5x as loud.. and just yesterday I was working in Photoshop CS2, Quark 6.5, InDesign, Acrobat 7 Pro, and MSWord 2004 and Mail and Safari all chugging happily along simultaneously. In 6.5" x 6.5" x 2".

Maybe what bugs CFB is the emotional component.. that people are usually happy with their Macs. I don't see a lot of people happy with their PCs.. they use them and tolerate them. There is that emotional component for me, but it's not based on making the hippest, coolest purchase, it's based on actual experience. And as more people start trying Macs, the news will finally start to spread after 20 years of disdain and marginalization. Just look at the number of Mac-recommenders on this thread, compared with a thread I remember a while back here on this same forum-maybe a year or so ago?- where the majority was counseling PCs.. because that's all they knew and were familiar with. "The devil you know..", etc.

For those worrying about Safari.. In my experience I can only remember about two instances of flaky sites (and I do a LOT of surfing).. they're usually sites that are wedded to Microsoft's X-something or other for video or interactive content. F** 'em. One of them was NBC. I can live without NBC. That was over a year ago, and I've had zero surfing problems since then.
 
ladelfina said:
For those worrying about Safari.. In my experience I can only remember about two instances of flaky sites (and I do a LOT of surfing).. they're usually sites that are wedded to Microsoft's X-something or other for video or interactive content. F** 'em. One of them was NBC. I can live without NBC. That was over a year ago, and I've had zero surfing problems since then.

I have Firefox loaded for just such instances.
 
I cut my teeth on VMS, grew up on Unix, and largely managed to avoid both Macs and PCs until about 10 years ago. I find both of them distasteful, but find PCs at least tolerable, while Macs are incredibly counter-intuitive to me. I just feel like I'm banging my head against the wall every time I try to use one -- they seem to intentionally not do what you expect or want them to do, even if they do have unix underpinnings these days.

But play with them both -- maybe even try out Linux -- and get whatever you feel most comfortable with. In the end, it's all just ones and zeroes.
 
I still have my chip removal tools. Anyone still have their Mac cracker?

As for the debate, geez guys-- I just want to get my work done. Right now the PC world seems to require more fuss & maintenance than is rewarded by being the industry standard. Those of you who think a PC is a better/safer platform don't spend enough time in a houseful of teens accessing gaming & music websites. Microsoft's "permissions" system just seems designed to make life harder on the system administrator ("Daa-aad, could you install this for us please?") instead of making things safer for the user.

A friend has picked up a Mac laptop and is giving me his Mac Mini, complete with KVM switch for quick comparison between our PC and the Mini. It'll be interesting to see what's better worse differently different. Especially when I port our 15 years of Quicken data over to a Mac...
 
ladelfina said:
Sigh. Yes, my computer MIGHT get struck by lightning. But so what? It's only a computer.

But wouldnt it suck if someone loads a keystroke logger on your machine and captures your passwords to your financial institutions, your email, and everything else? You'd never know...no protection to tip you off. And I dont know about you, but while I keep good backups, it takes me a day or two to reload all my software and files onto a wrecked machine. Theres absolutely zero economy to doing that task on a mac vs a PC.

I have spent ZERO extra time and money on the issue, while you have spent lots...

Au contraire. I've spent zero extra time and money as well. Virus protection is provided for free by most system manufacturers and ISP's. Its already on the machine. It updates itself. It only interrupts me when something bad happens, which for the last 2-3 years has been never.

Nords...you're about to learn the mac mantra that I developed when asked to install something, make something work properly, or fix something:

"That doesnt run on the mac" and "I dont know".

At least you're getting it for free ;)

Seriously though, if anyone swallows the Mac OSX hook, get a core duo/core 2 duo intel based machine. Then at least your hardware will let you change your mind later.

One of the things that really bugs me is when I get stung by a marketing campaign that sells me a package of goods that isnt delivered. I always feel like an idiot. Buying a mac was one of those times.
 
Cute Fuzzy Bunny said:
And I dont know about you, but while I keep good backups, it takes me a day or two to reload all my software and files onto a wrecked machine. Theres absolutely zero economy to doing that task on a mac vs a PC.

I use Norton Ghost and external USB drive for automatic backups. I had my hard drive go out last week and I used the the Ghost recovery CD and had my computer restored EXACTLY to its condition of the night before in 15 minutes on the new drive. I was impressed.
 
I've had no end of problems with backup tools accurately restoring a bootable windows system drive, but Ghost always worked well. My persistent problem is with getting all the updated application bits and files since I last backed up...right now i'm using a mirrored raid pair and some nice tools from Apricorn that do an image backup and can synchronize directories with other machines.

External disk drives are really, really good things. The Apricorn ones are especially sweet due to the nice layered software they include.
 
I generally avoid talking about religion, politics, or operating systems because you're not going to change any minds on any of these topics.

My first personal computer was an Apple ][. I wrote the modem software, a database system, word processor and a Pascal compiler for it all in FORTH. I bought a Mac SE when they came out and liked Apple. At the same time I had a DOS machine for work and when Windows 95 came along I went completely to the dark side.

I haven't used the new Macs so I won't try to make comparisons, but I am always surprised when Mac people talk about how difficult it is to do something on a Windows machine or how often they crash. I develop software part time and I stress the resources of a machine far more than most folks and I have zero problems with my computer crashing.

Installing software is no harder than clicking on an installation file. Connecting my external hard drive was a matter of plugging in the USB cable. Yesterday my wife wanted some video of one our dogs to send to someone. I shot the video, plugged my camera into my new Dell laptop for the first time ever and turned on the camera. Up pops a wizard and I download the video, edit it with a program I've never seen before and in 10 minutes had some clips to send off. I will concede I had to put a CD in to install my HP LaserJet, but I guess I will just have to pay that price for the other advantages I see.

I'm probably setting myself up for a big fall here, but I've had no problems with viruses or other security problems. I would run a firewall no matter what operating system I ran. I like knowing what is going out from my computer to the Internet. You might be surprised how many programs call home and I like knowing who they are connecting to and what they are sending. The Mac OS may be fundamentally more secure, I don't know, but I don't think you can discount completely the market share argument. Some of you may remember in the early days when Macs had a larger market share they also had the market share of viruses and everybody ran Disinfectant on their Macs. (I know it's a different OS, just saying the market share argument has some merit.)

Finally, there are specialized areas where there are few software choices for a Mac. One of my hobbies is astronomy. One of my astronomy friends has a Mac and he has problems finding astronomy software that runs on his Mac. He ordered a CCD camera but had to cancel when the promised software version for the Mac never developed. The plans for his observatory came on a CCD that required a program that did not run on a Mac. He can't use a lot of equipment or software because there is no version for the Mac.

If you like Macs then good for you, but I wouldn't be put off from getting a PC by the usual arguments I hear.
 
shoe said:
Yes, Macs are more expensive, but they are virtually virus-proof and security updates can be downloaded and installed automatically for you. .... It also prints to PDF, so anybody can read your document if they have Adobe (free) Reader....
Plug it into a cable or DSL modem and it practically configures itself! You only have to answer 3 questions about your Internet service name, your netwok login and password, and BAM - Connected!

This is exactly what I wrote about in my previous post. Mac owners seem to believe that they've got something that Windows PCs don't. But this is simply not true. Windows PCs now come with anti-virus software making them virus-proof. They also come with automatic security updates that are downloaded and installed automatically for you. My Windows PC also prints to PDF if I select that printer. I connect my PC to networks all over the world and I don't have to answer any questions.

Telling us these things is like telling us that the Mac has a keyboard.
 
My wife is in the design business. She runs a mac in the house. When I was working on records in LA, I did all my work stuff on Macs. Now I run a PC for myself, just for everyday home office stuff. I've got PCs at school. It does seem that entire industries choose to run Macs (generally art related).

Since I work on them both throughout an average day, my gut is just that the Mac is elegant. I think the iPod is good parallel. Yes, you can get the same features for less money, but, man, the iPod is just cooler, easier and more fun. Yes, all gut stuff. You can do it with either one, but, if you can afford it, take the Mac.

I'll continue to run a PC for myself, because I can't justify the extra cost. But would I rather be on a Mac...yup.

Elegance.

devo O0
 
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