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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-25-2007, 10:50 PM   #61
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Re: Mac or PC?

Its all old news ERD. Thats the way it was 3-5 years ago. Old marketing takes a long time to die, particularly when it plucks the right strings.

But if it makes anyone feel better to pay twice as much for what they perceive to be a better value for them, they should do so.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-25-2007, 11:02 PM   #62
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Re: Mac or PC?

RE: virus attacks -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
Perhaps since I've been working with unix since the 1970's, I might qualify

Read this: http://www.techworld.com/security/ne...fm?newsid=1798
or: http://news.com.com/Is+Mac+OS+as+saf...3-6043353.html

Pretty much sums it up. Lots of folks will argue with all the parameters, but the bottom line from this old operating system coder is that unix has plenty of deficiencies and the variant apple uses is arguably worse than most modern unix variants.
OK CFB, let's 'get real' about those links and viruses on the Mac.

A) The first link is a report that is a year old. Yet, despite all their 'concerns' (fear mongering), a year later there still have not been any viruses out in the wild. From the article:
Quote:
there is no need for Mac owners to worry, experts said, as the published attacks are still mainly theoretical and not widespread.
Heck, they didn't spread at all!

So, they make some headlines, but there's no meat to it. To me, there sure is a real-world difference bewtween theoretical vulnerabilities that *might* be exploited (but never have affected anyone that I know of), and the many actual exploits that exist in the Windows world that require daily updates (albeit automatically) to the virus profiles.

B) The methodology of that second link has been widely discredited. One example: http://blogs.zdnet.com/Murphy/?p=542

I spend some time on various Apple forums and with some Apple programmers. No one has experienced a virus problem. *NO ONE*. Of course that does not mean it can't or won't happen. I have yet to meet a Mac owner that believes they are totally immune from any future attack. But, how much time do you spend worrying about what might happen? Backups are required to protect against a HW failure (a real concern) - if I do get hit by a virus, I'll wipe the drive and go to my back up.

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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-25-2007, 11:13 PM   #63
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Re: Mac or PC?

Everythings arguable.

I have three PC's that came from the maker with software installed. Been in service for years. No viruses. No work. No expense. Bupkus. Nada. Nothing special done. No expertise required.

My brother in law has a dozen teenagers whacking away at a windows machine, clicking on every 'free!" link and every questionable email attachment. About once a year, through the worst possible 15 year old "who cares" attitude, they manage to pick up something that hoses the machine. I dont do anything special with it, I just loaded Windows and Mcafee.

Running MacOS might fix that. But five bucks say they'll find another way to make Uncle Bunny spend an hour restoring a backup.

On the other hand, half the games they use and a fair percentage of their other s/w wont run on a mac without special s/w...or at all.

And my brother in law cant afford a mac. The brand new $350 dell machine he bought on sale was a pretty good machine he could afford.

But like I said...if you perceive the benefit, you can afford it and it maks you feel right, you oughta get a mac.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-26-2007, 12:29 AM   #64
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
Its all old news ERD. Thats the way it was 3-5 years ago. Old marketing takes a long time to die, particularly when it plucks the right strings.
Is it 'all old news'?

Apple customer service is *currently* and consistently rated higher than other companies. And, that is relevant to the OP.

Viruses are not a real-world issue on Macs. Sure, that is old (and current) news. In this case, old news is good news.

Which one is 'easier to use' is subjective (unless someone defines a nice objective standardized test), so I can only share my experience using both, and my observations of others. We can have a different opinion on that, but Apple marketing never influenced my opinion - it was my own observations and experiences. Look at all the posters that feel the same as I do. This is not a group that is influenced by marketing messages, or we would be all be racking up the credit card debt, buying into all those marketing messages Saying that we all just bought into a marketing message is not defendable.

But, if you want an outside view, here's a recent link (not 3-5 years old) to an Information Week review, not exactly a Mac fanboy site:

http://tinyurl.com/2gob3g
Quote:
Originally Posted by Information Week
Jan 6, 2007 08:00 AM
Review: Mac OS X Shines In Comparison With Windows Vista
Better Than XP
Jan 6, 2007 08:00 AM

However, is it significantly or even slightly better than Mac OS X? Maybe in a couple of low-level ways, like the randomizing memory address usage function, or being able to use USB memory sticks as additional RAM, but at the human level? Not even close.

Microsoft still can't manage to make something simple and easy to use. Vista reeks of committee and design by massive consensus, while OS X shines from an intense focus on doing things in a simple, clear fashion and design for the user, not the programmer
Sounds just like what the OP ordered, doesn't it?


Quote:
But if it makes anyone feel better to pay twice as much for what they perceive to be a better value for them, they should do so
Price comparisons are tough. I've seen this go round and round ad nauseam on other forums. Configurations vary between companies, and some of those features mean nothing to some people. For example - in a laptop, is 'lighter and smaller' 'better' if it means a smaller screen? For some, yes - others no. Even now that Apple is on Intel based HW, it is tough to really spec out identical systems. How much is a 'Mag-Safe' connector worth? I know some people that would never use the included iLife programs, so they are zero value to them while others love them. Value can be very specific to the user. I'd agree that there are not any 'bargains' to be found (in pure $ terms). But I doubt I ever paid 'twice as much' with any reasonable comparison.

To make this relevant to the OP, if he considers a mac, we could price out what he might need, and see where it falls.

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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-26-2007, 04:55 AM   #65
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Re: Mac or PC?

You have to get over price comparisons, but also HW comparisons, which can be deceiving. There are any number of sites where you can find Mac/PC speed and performance comparisons for various tasks (tho' they usually don't have the latest and greatest recent configurations). Something like Photoshop will run faster on certain Macs that have 1/2 the advertised speed of certain PCs; whether the Photoshop folks optimized for the Mac's processor, or the processor designer optimized for Photoshop I don't know-- doesn't really matter-- but all programs don't run the same on theoretically "equivalent" machines. Usually Graphics => Mac wins / Games => PC wins.

CFB says Apple is all marketing. But it's only in recent years that Apple has even DONE any serious marketing. They burst on the scene with the "1984" ad and then basically left people to make up their own minds for the next 15 years... It's only with the iPod, the mini, and OSX that they've started agressively selling their flavor of Kool-Aid.

Hey..I'm glad if, in the recent past, PC users have had a better time with XP than with previous versions; if you tell me that's the case, fantastic! But I'm still MORE glad that I avoided as much of the Microsoft BS as possible to begin with, and lived a comparatively tranquil life for 15 years while PC folks were, generally speaking, tearing out their hair.

CFB is undoubtedly right about the first releases of OSX. I didn't go there; I held off a couple years, as he wisely suggests doing with Vista, for those who swing that way. But when Vista matures, ask the OP if he knows whether he'll need "Home Basic", "Home Premium", or "Ultimate"? We'll leave out "Business" and "Enterprise". What a waste of time.. and you haven't even bought the damn thing yet!! It's worse than Quicken / TurboTax.

Check out the "Home Basic" Vista specs: you'll need 15GB. OSX fits in 3GB. Is it naive to assume that PCs need to have more firepower in order to deal with a bloated OS? And this is what a company with essentially unlimited resources came up with after [insert plausible number here; I have heard various numbers-- 17, 10, 5] years of development? A warmed-over version of what's been out there for a few years already? Color me not impressed.

Also, I'm (only mildly) curious about what you say is "automatic" PC virus protection that you don't have to think about. For something like McAfee, don't you need to buy ongoing yearly subscriptions? Do people factor that lifelong expense into their cost of ownership?

I highly doubt that M$ owns any significant part of Apple. Tried to investigate it a bit but didn't come up with much.. someone mentioning on a forum a $125M stake that someone else thought had been sold. Not much in any case. I'd actually heard a different kind of theory: that M$ instead had stakes in the anti-virus companies..!

MORE interesting, now that I'm on the virus jag.. is that is see that Microsoft has jumped into the anti-virus subscription market in its own right.. not only undercutting McAfee et al. pricewise, but now blocking independent security software sellers from looking at the Vista code they want to. Fox... Chicken coop... Does that spell better PC security for the future? Dunno..
http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/53540.html

"Your computer may be at risk."

Yeah, the computer wars ARE a lot like politics and religion.. You can't seem to go wrong by exploiting people's fears in order to make money and establish power. Especially when you offer $olution$ to an instability that you created in the first place.

--
Now, when will someone come out with a truly kid-proof (or let's say kid-resistant) computer?? When I last visited sis, her 3 y.o could often be seen emitting a string of drool aimed right at the little laptop trackpad. "Katie! Stop spitting on the computer!" Turns out she was just trying to get it so that her fingers would slide around better on the pad! :

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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-26-2007, 05:45 AM   #66
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ladelfina

When I last visited sis, her 3 y.o could often be seen emitting a string of drool aimed right at the little laptop trackpad.

Katie and I have something in common.




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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-26-2007, 08:05 AM   #67
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ladelfina
You have to get over price comparisons, but also HW comparisons, which can be deceiving. There are any number of sites where you can find Mac/PC speed and performance comparisons for various tasks ..... whether the Photoshop folks optimized for the Mac's processor, or the processor designer optimized for Photoshop ...
good points on the rest, but now that *all* Macs are on the Intel platform, the speed and power comparisons are much more straighforward. But I still find it tough to compare - graphics cards, screen size, size/weight, customer service, number/type of I/O, included memory, HD size, optical specs, SW bundle, virus issues, etc, etc, etc.

If one is on the fence, they need to confiure the systems that they estimate will fit their requirement, and then compare prices and weigh the plus/minuses. What is importnant to one means nothing to another - no one else can tell you which is right. I did this in 2000 when I was on-the-fence, I am rreally happy that I stayed with the Mac - OSX and iLife and everything has improved so much and (IMO and most other reviews I've seen) OSX >> Windows, so I am happy.

Here is a link to one comparison site.

http://www.systemshootouts.org/shoot...26_dt0600.html

Again, I don't take any of this as 'definative' kust another fdata point to assist in a decision.

Considering all the LBYM people on this forum, and all the Mac supporters, there must be something to that 'value' statement, right?

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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-26-2007, 08:30 AM   #68
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Re: Mac or PC?

Absolutely. When people buy destination products they tend to defend them to the death. Its called "validation".

The primary points are that the mac OS is not "virus proof", and they no longer enjoy a significant ease of use factor like they did 5-10 years ago. And pound for pound, they cost more.

Both do the job, both take some time to learn, both have their quirks. One is more expensive and you may be able to get away without virus protection, but I wouldnt recommend it. Smug todays will turn into very unhappy tomorrows.

For the third time, if you think there is value for you here, you should get a mac. And pick up one of those german eurosedans that used to be good but have bottom of the barrel reliability now, and one of those poorly rated colorful vacuum cleaners advertised by the guy with the english accent, and one of those $4000 stainless steel stoves thats also at the bottom of the ratings and anything else hawked by cool looking people telling you how great its gonna be.

Just dont BS me.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-26-2007, 08:35 AM   #69
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny

I have three PC's that came from the maker with software installed. Been in service for years. No viruses. No work. No expense. Bupkus. Nada. Nothing special done. No expertise required.
All well and good, but you did describe yourself as someone with above average computer skills, so maybe you are much more attuned to getting these set up properly. I don't think you can extend that experience to all Windows users. If it was as easy as you indicate, we wouldn't be reading about security problems in Windows, would we?

I know for certain, if you took 10,000 Mom & Pop type Mac OS X users, you would not find a single one that has had a virus issue - ever.

If you took 10,000 Mom & Pop type Windows XP users, I am sure you would find a different story.

Quote:
On the other hand, half the games they use and a fair percentage of their other s/w wont run on a mac without special s/w...or at all.
True (so I'm told, I'm not a gamer), some (many?) of the Mac action games are probably a gen behind the windows version, or maybe not even available. If action games are your thing, and you don't want to use a console game machine for that (probably the best way to go), then that is a valid consideration.

Quote:
And my brother in law cant afford a mac. The brand new $350 dell machine he bought on sale was a pretty good machine he could afford.
Like I said, you won't find bargain basement prices on Macs, the Mini is as low as they go in that area (add monitor and keyboard), and sales are almost non-existent (try a 'refurb' or the edu pricing to get a bit off - 'refurbs' are as good/better than new most people report). If a $350 Dell fit his needs, that is great. It is good to have a choice.[/quote]
Quote:
About once a year, through the worst possible 15 year old "who cares" attitude, they manage to pick up something that hoses the machine. ...

Running MacOS might fix that. But five bucks say they'll find another way to make Uncle Bunny spend an hour restoring a backup.
See now, IMO, this is where your bias shows. You admit that their machine gets hosed once a year (OK, the 15 yo is a contributing factor), and you need to go fix it for them, but then you just *assume* that a Mac would have some sort of similar fate, even though you have zero evidence of that. You just seem to need to confirm your own prejudices


Quote:
But like I said...if you perceive the benefit, you can afford it and it maks you feel right, you oughta get a mac.
Right - to each his own. I just like to see people make informed decisions. I felt your view on security issues, pricing, and ease of use was too biased to be of value to the OP.

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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-26-2007, 08:43 AM   #70
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
Just dont BS me.
Exactly my point. I provided links that confirm viruses have not been a problem on OSX, I can dig up plenty of links that show viruses *are* an issue on Windows, I provided links of reviews that do praise the ease-of-use of Mac vs Windows ( part of the OP original question).

You are, IMO, the one spreading the FUD. I can't imagine why you care to do this.

For the umpteenth time, it's not a 'falling for the marketing hype' thing. I don't own a dyson or an expensive foreign car, or anything like that. More FUD on your part.

I am trying to address the OP question. If he ends up reviewing everything w/o bias, and decides a Windows machine meets his needs, good for him. Competition is good, choice is good, FUD is not needed. Why not try to help the OP?

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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-26-2007, 08:59 AM   #71
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Re: Mac or PC?

Ah, we've reached the multi-quoted diatribe stage where you arent reading what i'm saying, or are reading into it what you will.

One last time.

I have three machines. Software installed by the manufacturer. I did nothing. They dont get viruses.

But let me tell you what? PM me your IP address and leave your Mac on for the rest of the day. See what you have left by 6pm.

My BIL has a LOT of teenagers whacking away at a computer for 10 hours a day, not just one. Three of them in-house and all of their friends. They install 10 different software packages a week, and do every "bad behavior" one could do.

I'm not mac stupid, I've owned them and worked for companies that were very mac centric. They get screwed up too. I had to reload my wifes mac twice and we didnt even do anything weird with it.

That having been said, I have the same opinion of your opinion. Too biased. You paid too much, did your comparisons 5 years ago, and somehow that opinion translates to facts. I'm sorry you overpaid for your computer and now feel the need to compensate for that.

As far as pricing? Dell web site shows a buttload of refurbished windows desktops for $300, brand new for $419 with a monitor. Apple web site shows a similarly configured mac mini refurb for $650 and a skimpier config with no monitor for $599. Cheapest apple 14" laptop is a refurb unit for almost a thousand bucks. I can get new windows based notebooks for $350-400 anytime.

2:1, 3:1 price differential. Not even close.

As far as the OP, probably best off buying the cheapest dell machine they can buy and going with it. Theres absolutely zero ease of use benefit in running a word processor and web browser on either machine. $400 or $800 for the same thing? No brainer.

But they could go buy a 2-3 year old used mac for about the same $400 price point and it'd be fast enough to do the job and probably live a long life.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-26-2007, 09:01 AM   #72
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Re: Mac or PC?

Ah...I'm spreading FUD, while you're frantically arm waving about virus problems and ease of use benefits that dont exist.

Got it.



Why do I do this? Because I hate to see someone get ripped off for perceived benefits they arent going to get. No other reason.

Continue on, i'm done with this discussion. Theres no resolution to this, and no further benefit to anyone, including the OP.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-26-2007, 09:29 AM   #73
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote from: Information Week
Quote:
while OS X shines from an intense focus on doing things in a simple, clear fashion and design for the user
Then why can't I ever get it to do what I want?

I use Macs, PCs, Unix and Linux on a daily basis. Choosing between Mac and PC is like choosing whether to take a hammer to the left kneecap or the left nut -- not much fun, and you'll never end up fully functional afterwards. The only operating system I really need is Emacs. Failing that, in a pinch, I can at least get something done on a PC (much as I dislike Microsoft). Macs on the other hand are just frustrating. As I've said, totally counter-intuitive.

On the other hand, if the OP is computer-challenged, the Mac is probably not a bad machine to start out on. Learn to think like a Mac from the outset, and it'll probably be fine.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-26-2007, 09:46 AM   #74
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
Especially when I port our 15 years of Quicken data over to a Mac...
To change gears slightly....

Be warned - I know someone that tried to move Quicken data between systems and it was a BIG problem. I figured it was pilot error, but when I researched it I was surprised to find that Quicken did a lousy job of providing file compatibility between Mac/PC. There were problems going either way. Dates change, entries dropped, all kinda cr@p.

It's a one time thing - once it is converted you should be OK, but it may be more than you want to tackle. Or it could go smooth, I forget what the catches were. This person thought they could just go back/forth (which is a reasonable expectation for data), but Intuit screwed that up royally.

This was several years ago, *maybe* Intuit got their act together (I doubt it), but do some googling before you attempt this.

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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-26-2007, 09:47 AM   #75
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Re: Mac or PC?

Here's a real-world test I did:
I put my Mac G4 powerbook on the coffee table, I connected to the internet leaving Safari open.
I put my Dell Latitude laptop on the coffee table; I connected to the internet leaving internet explorer open.

I went out shopping and left the kids home alone. When I come back, ....

The Dell is in full use. My then-13-year old has installed instant messager and is chatting with her friends, playing MP3s, watching a DVD, is writing a report for school, and has powerpoint started as well.

The Mac is sitting idle.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-26-2007, 09:54 AM   #76
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOL!
Here's a real-world test I did:
I put my Mac G4 powerbook on the coffee table, I connected to the internet leaving Safari open.
I put my Dell Latitude laptop on the coffee table; I connected to the internet leaving internet explorer open.

I went out shopping and left the kids home alone. When I come back, ....

The Dell is in full use. My then-13-year old has installed instant messager and is chatting with her friends, playing MP3s, watching a DVD, is writing a report for school, and has powerpoint started as well.

The Mac is sitting idle.
Thanks for that scientific, well designed, statistically significant study. Very enlightening! [/satire]

You got a spellchecker on that Dell (messager) ?

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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-26-2007, 10:45 AM   #77
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa
That belies everything I have read and experienced. Got anything more specific? I'd like to learn more

I've never bought any extended warranty - just gave away a 7 year old Mac laptop which was working fine, just not powerful enough for modern applications.
Sorry Rich I don't have more specifics.
I only remember that the broadcast was about extended warranty and that it was - as you said - always a waste of money. But they singled out two products in the program where it could actually make sense due to initial quality and one of them was the Mac.
I recall this because I made a point to remember not to get a Mac.

You might know that initial quality doesn't mean that long term reliability is bad or that the product is not performant. JUst that there is a high "infant mortality" (as they call it).
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-26-2007, 11:15 AM   #78
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by perinova
Sorry Rich I don't have more specifics.
I only remember that the broadcast was about extended warranty and that it was - as you said - always a waste of money. But they singled out two products in the program where it could actually make sense due to initial quality and one of them was the Mac.
I recall this because I made a point to remember not to get a Mac.

You might know that initial quality doesn't mean that long term reliability is bad or that the product is not performant. JUst that there is a high "infant mortality" (as they call it).
There were some specific models that had quality problems (like any company). I bought one in one of those batches and I did have problems. I did not buy the extended warranty, but Apple extended coverage on those units to two years at no charge. I got mine replaced after it showed a few symptoms at about 15 months. No hassle whatsoever. I am typing on it right now.

And, 'infant mortality' normally shows up in that first year of warranty anyhow.

Now that Macs are Intel based, I expect some of these quality problems to be reduced - there is safety in numbers. Apple previously had to do a redesign for each motherboard, and there is always the chance for a design snag. Now, with a more common architecture, it is reduced (not eliminated!).

Also, since Apple has fewer models (maybe 10 basic models total?), a quality problem in any one of them looks significant. But, it can actually help draw attention to the problem and help get it resolved.

I just wish they would produce something a bit bigger than the Mini - include a standard 3.5" HDD instead of the tiny, slow laptop drive they put in that thing. I prefer to keep my monitor purchase separate from my computer purchase.

-ERD50

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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-26-2007, 12:40 PM   #79
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Re: Mac or PC?

For the record, since we've devolved to attacks on peoples spelling because their anecdotal experiences are different from others.

US-CERT shows more than 60 critical vulnerabilities in OS X that have been closed (after existing for as long as 18 months) in the last few years. Many allow full root access to your Mac:

http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/html/search

Search for "apple" then "mac" then "os x". They arent particularly consistent with their labeling.

You may also refer to this site, which spent last month finding and reporting a vulnerability in OS X...every day of the month. Many allow open root access to your Mac, and several exist "in the wild".

http://projects.info-pull.com/moab/

So much for the 'virus proof' operating system...


With regards to usability, i refer to this site, which seems to be rather unbiased and offers some actual testing at a decent granularity level:

http://www.xvsxp.com/finalscore/index.php

Granted there is a fair bit of subjectivity to these sorts of tests, but the bottom line is that OS X and Windows XP, along with any free features available from their respective manufacturers, scored about dead even. Mac OSX's cumulative score is 643, Windows XP's is 630.

Its convenient in this testing to look at each sub section to weight whats important for each particular user.

A separate evaluation of Vista vs the current OS X implementation came up with this verdict...by a bona fide mac fanboy:

"Verdict In the context of this examination, we see that Vista is currently pouncing all over OS X Tiger in most scenarios. Microsoft has considerably improved its flagship product and should be applauded for taking so many modern operating system concepts and dragging them front and center."

I guess the good news is that if you buy a current Intel based mac, you'll probably be able to run Vista on it at some point without jumping through too many hoops. Pretty expensive iron though.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-26-2007, 01:34 PM   #80
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
For the record, since we've devolved to attacks on peoples spelling because their anecdotal experiences are different from others.
Awwww, come on, I put a smiley-winkey after that. Sorry if that did not convey the spirit that was intended.
Quote:

http://projects.info-pull.com/moab/

So much for the 'virus proof' operating system...
Please remember, I never said OSX was 'virus proof'. You seem to like to put those words in my mouth (keyboard?). I do believe that the permissions based UNIX underpinnings help to make it fundamentally more secure than Windows, but that is implementation dependent, is certainly no guarantee, and I never implied that. What I did say, several times, is that despite these reports and warnings and theoretical observations, no one that I know in the OSX community has had a virus issues on a OSX *to date*. That could change tomorrow, but that is the current reality. No amount of links you provide can change that reality.

That moab site has been reviewed all over the Apple forums. I'll double check, but AFAIK, none of the 'techies' on those forums have said there was anything to worry about on that list. Contrary to what you may believe, many Apple users are not in denial about this stuff, if there was a real threat out there, we would be warning each other and helping each other get the fixes in place. There recently was a Trojan Horse put in a jpg. OSX does a good job of protecting the user against this, as it asks them if they want to 'install this program' and requires a password. That *should* tip off the user - why is a jpg trying to install a program? Well, the apple forums were all over that, warning people to watch out - so I would not classify us as in denial.

Quote:
With regards to usability, i refer to this site, which seems to be rather unbiased and offers some actual testing at a decent granularity level:

http://www.xvsxp.com/finalscore/index.php

Its convenient in this testing to look at each sub section to weight whats important for each particular user.
Thanks for that link - that does look like good info. I bookmarked it. I agree, I like the way they broke it down by section - the weighting certainly can make a difference to each user. I hope to see an update, 10.5 vs Vista, soon.

Something tells me the OP has probably decided, the heck with this stuff, I'm sticking to pen and paper!

-ERD50
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