Mac or PC?

[ERD50]

Here's a real-world test I did:
I put my Mac G4 powerbook on the coffee table, I connected to the internet leaving Safari open.
I put my Dell Latitude laptop on the coffee table; I connected to the internet leaving internet explorer open.

I went out shopping and left the kids home alone. When I come back, ....

The Dell is in full use. My then-13-year old has installed instant messager and is chatting with her friends, playing MP3s, watching a DVD, is writing a report for school, and has powerpoint started as well.

The Mac is sitting idle.

Thanks for that scientific, well designed, statistically significant study. Very enlightening! [/satire]

You got a spellchecker on that Dell (messager) ?

-ERD50

 

[perinova]

That belies everything I have read and experienced. Got anything more specific? I'd like to learn more

I've never bought any extended warranty - just gave away a 7 year old Mac laptop which was working fine, just not powerful enough for modern applications.

Sorry Rich I don't have more specifics.
I only remember that the broadcast was about extended warranty and that it was - as you said - always a waste of money. But they singled out two products in the program where it could actually make sense due to initial quality and one of them was the Mac.
I recall this because I made a point to remember not to get a Mac.

You might know that initial quality doesn't mean that long term reliability is bad or that the product is not performant. JUst that there is a high "infant mortality" (as they call it).

 

[ERD50]

Sorry Rich I don't have more specifics.
I only remember that the broadcast was about extended warranty and that it was - as you said - always a waste of money. But they singled out two products in the program where it could actually make sense due to initial quality and one of them was the Mac.
I recall this because I made a point to remember not to get a Mac.

You might know that initial quality doesn't mean that long term reliability is bad or that the product is not performant. JUst that there is a high "infant mortality" (as they call it).

There were some specific models that had quality problems (like any company). I bought one in one of those batches and I did have problems. I did not buy the extended warranty, but Apple extended coverage on those units to two years at no charge. I got mine replaced after it showed a few symptoms at about 15 months. No hassle whatsoever. I am typing on it right now.

And, 'infant mortality' normally shows up in that first year of warranty anyhow.

Now that Macs are Intel based, I expect some of these quality problems to be reduced - there is safety in numbers. Apple previously had to do a redesign for each motherboard, and there is always the chance for a design snag. Now, with a more common architecture, it is reduced (not eliminated!).

Also, since Apple has fewer models (maybe 10 basic models total?), a quality problem in any one of them looks significant. But, it can actually help draw attention to the problem and help get it resolved.

I just wish they would produce something a bit bigger than the Mini - include a standard 3.5" HDD instead of the tiny, slow laptop drive they put in that thing. I prefer to keep my monitor purchase separate from my computer purchase.

-ERD50

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

For the record, since we've devolved to attacks on peoples spelling because their anecdotal experiences are different from others.

US-CERT shows more than 60 critical vulnerabilities in OS X that have been closed (after existing for as long as 18 months) in the last few years. Many allow full root access to your Mac:

http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/html/search

Search for "apple" then "mac" then "os x". They arent particularly consistent with their labeling.

You may also refer to this site, which spent last month finding and reporting a vulnerability in OS X...every day of the month. Many allow open root access to your Mac, and several exist "in the wild".

http://projects.info-pull.com/moab/

So much for the 'virus proof' operating system...


With regards to usability, i refer to this site, which seems to be rather unbiased and offers some actual testing at a decent granularity level:

http://www.xvsxp.com/finalscore/index.php

Granted there is a fair bit of subjectivity to these sorts of tests, but the bottom line is that OS X and Windows XP, along with any free features available from their respective manufacturers, scored about dead even. Mac OSX's cumulative score is 643, Windows XP's is 630.

Its convenient in this testing to look at each sub section to weight whats important for each particular user.

A separate evaluation of Vista vs the current OS X implementation came up with this verdict...by a bona fide mac fanboy:

"Verdict – In the context of this examination, we see that Vista is currently pouncing all over OS X Tiger in most scenarios. Microsoft has considerably improved its flagship product and should be applauded for taking so many modern operating system concepts and dragging them front and center."

I guess the good news is that if you buy a current Intel based mac, you'll probably be able to run Vista on it at some point without jumping through too many hoops. Pretty expensive iron though.

 

[ERD50]

For the record, since we've devolved to attacks on peoples spelling because their anecdotal experiences are different from others.

Awwww, come on, I put a smiley-winkey after that. Sorry if that did not convey the spirit that was intended.

http://projects.info-pull.com/moab/

So much for the 'virus proof' operating system...

Please remember, I never said OSX was 'virus proof'. You seem to like to put those words in my mouth (keyboard?). I do believe that the permissions based UNIX underpinnings help to make it fundamentally more secure than Windows, but that is implementation dependent, is certainly no guarantee, and I never implied that. What I did say, several times, is that despite these reports and warnings and theoretical observations, no one that I know in the OSX community has had a virus issues on a OSX *to date*. That could change tomorrow, but that is the current reality. No amount of links you provide can change that reality.

That moab site has been reviewed all over the Apple forums. I'll double check, but AFAIK, none of the 'techies' on those forums have said there was anything to worry about on that list. Contrary to what you may believe, many Apple users are not in denial about this stuff, if there was a real threat out there, we would be warning each other and helping each other get the fixes in place. There recently was a Trojan Horse put in a jpg. OSX does a good job of protecting the user against this, as it asks them if they want to 'install this program' and requires a password. That *should* tip off the user - why is a jpg trying to install a program? Well, the apple forums were all over that, warning people to watch out - so I would not classify us as in denial.

With regards to usability, i refer to this site, which seems to be rather unbiased and offers some actual testing at a decent granularity level:

http://www.xvsxp.com/finalscore/index.php

Its convenient in this testing to look at each sub section to weight whats important for each particular user.

Thanks for that link - that does look like good info. I bookmarked it. I agree, I like the way they broke it down by section - the weighting certainly can make a difference to each user. I hope to see an update, 10.5 vs Vista, soon.

Something tells me the OP has probably decided, the heck with this stuff, I'm sticking to pen and paper!

-ERD50

 

[LOL!]

setab, did you get any advice on a printer? I like Canons over HPs and Epsons all of which I have used alot.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I'm such a goofball. It wasnt until I read the thread on the moral dilemma of lighting a handicapped guys joint that it occurred to me that the pro-mac people are MAC PEOPLE...they were all high when they were posting!

That explained a lot.

 

[ladelfina]

can I unpick a bit of the hairball?
Mac OS X: 642 (643)
Windows XP Home: 557 (605)

642/557 = 1.15.. Now tell someone here that [stock/fund/ETF] is going to do 15% better, or 6% better (643/605).. will they say "nah.. it's about dead even.."?

http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/editors/2005/01/miniapplesandoranges/

----
CFB, you skipped over my anti-virus subscription q. .. I'm still curious about that cost factor..
And this just blew my mind:

I guess the good news is that if you buy a current Intel based mac, you'll probably be able to run Vista on it at some point ... Pretty expensive iron though.

Run Vista!? WHY?
Why would you pay extra to run Vista on a Mac? Seriously, what would be the attraction?
If anyone's smoking something...

Sure.. if I had a special need like the astronomy buff.. absolutely.. but if that were the case, you're right, I'd most likely not buy the "expensive iron".. people don't buy Macs for the hardware, they buy it for the software; at least I do. Historically the Mac OS has been better, which leads a small group of diehards to shell out a few more bucks for the hardware. Conversely the lure of cheap hardware saddled people for years with a broken OS. Different business models and Bill won Round One bigtime, but I'd argue that he did so on the sweat and blood of innocent users.

True Confession time: I was IN LOVE with Xerox Ventura Publisher, which only ran on a PC. I was crushed that it went away. Everything else [insert vulgar phrase here]. I whored around with them all: Pagemaker, Quark, Frame.. Interleaf running on a SPARC station, even.. (hint: whatever you do, don't turn it off!). But VP was the real thing. (sigh!) It was stable, elegant, incredibly precise, did exactly what it was supposed to, and prevented the user from doing stupid things. The Mr. Right of software.

I'm a Mac OS fan, more than an Apple fan. As a going-away gift my partners gave me a top-of-the-line iPod. I used it for about 1/2 hour. I'm not crazy about iTunes and MP3s.. in fact the coming computer wars are going to over DRM.. and they might make the Mac-box/PC-box wars look like just a skirmish.

Too early to tell, but likely the boxes/OS will matter less and less as there's more of a shift towards web-based computing and content delivery. It could pan out that Microsoft, with the heavier autocratic hand, will impose its yoke and win Round Two in the same way that it won Round One.. no holds barred. OR Apple (maybe) or somebody else (more likely?) will offer users a better experience down the road. Having passed my peak years of music/movie/TV consumption and getting old and cranky about having to diddle with new technology.. I'm a poor judge of the direction of the New Wave. [Yeah, in theory I'd like to put together a homemade HD movie and distribute DVDs to all my friends. My Mac mini came with all the stuff to do it. But could I be bothered Nahh. ]

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

See? You're high right now!

I was thinking that maybe it was a bit early for that, but you *are* a few time zones ahead of me.

Sure, you took the worst set of scores to compare, I took the best ones. Go figure!

Virus subscription fee is zero. Most PC makers give you 90-365 days for free and ISP's give it to you for free while you subscribe. If that galls ya, there are a couple of free ones that get good grades.

I would imagine that the attraction to vista on the mac platform will be running apps that dont run well or run too slowly in emulation, or for when Apple finally relinquishes the operating system business. Or the computer business altogether. The name change they just made might be a signal that they're seeing the profit benefits in consumer electronics and getting tired of pumping a lot of money into the PC biz to try to maintain their 3% market share.

Oh yeah, and that self-confessed mac fanboy said vista was a lot better than os x. That might help.

 

[ERD50]

getting tired of pumping a lot of money into the PC biz to try to maintain their 3% market share.

Speaking of tired, those market share ramblings are a tired old rant.

Sure, market share is important in many ways (attract developers, maintain consumer confidence in the platform, etc), but....

since you phrased this in purely economic terms, Apple is making a good profit on their computer business even at single digit market share. Some other computer companies are not. So, why not 'pump a lot of money into the PC biz' if they are getting something for it? Isn't that what businesses are supposed to do?

And before you say, 'they make all their money from iPods now', read the Q report. They still make a good profit on computers.

-ERD50

 

[youbet]

Say........whatever happened to IBM in this game? Didn't we all used to say "IBM compatible" not PC compatible? Wasn't the decision to go Apple or IBM?

 

[audreyh1]

We've used Macs for years. Love them! Really low hassle and high functionality.

Even though we are both computer engineers and "capable" of dealing with crappy software, we prefer to use tools that are well integrated and don't require a lot of system hassle for dealing with viruses, etc.

It used to be that Mac was the only platform for getting the most out of advanced graphics design/art tools. Nowadays both the "easy" but powerful apps like iLife (iPhoto, iWeb, iMovie, iDVD), and the advanced apps like Final Cut (video editiing) make it so easy to do some really great stuff with minimal hassle.

The cost differential with PCs has virtually disappeared IMO.

Audrey

 

[setab]

Thanks for the info on the printer. I've just gotten back to this after four days without power. Somehow when it's 40 degrees in your house, that takes priority. Maybe moving south isn't such a bad idea. I have looked at prices for MACs and they seem to be considerably higher than comparable PC's. I also know what little I know based upon PC use. All these comments have been helpful, but I guess the bottom line I get is just pick something. Thanks.

setab

 

[ladelfina]

you took the worst set of scores to compare, I took the best

No, I took the "out-of-the-box" values.. looking at a discount computer means "Home", not "Pro".

If PC virus protection is free.. than what is Microsoft doing with the OneLifetoLiveCare stuff? There's gotta be a buck in it, yeh?


Setab, best of luck whatever you decide. Focus on the software or the OS suite of apps that suits you best since that's where you spend most of your time.

 

[scrinch]

As far as multifunction printers go...in the past 8 years I've had two Epsons, an HP, and a Canon. I have been much happier with the Canon than either the Epsons or the HP. Epsons are notorious for having clogged ink jets, and their print heads are typically not replaceable. So when the jets clog, and after you've spent $100 for ink trying to run head cleaning utilities, your printer is just e-waste. Print quality was good, scanner worked well, and software was fine, but both of my Epsons had clogged jets over and over. The HPs also printed fine, but in my experience cost an arm and a leg for ink (I never buy generic ink). I moved to a Canon MP600 last Fall, and have been very impressed so far. It is a little big and boxy, but other than looks it has been great. Ink usage has been fine, cost of ink is fairly low (Office Depot), print quality is very nice, and the scanner and its software are easy to use. It also has a paper tray underneath, so there is no sheaf of paper sticking out the back, and it has a little screen on the front for previewing copies and navigating the simple menus. It also closes up when not in use, so it keeps the dust out and doesn't look so much like a printer, but then it opens itself up and starts working when you send a print job.

I'm sure there are plenty of good multifunction printers out there as well as quite a few troublesome ones. Based on my experience, I can recommend the Canon MP600 as one of the good ones.

 

[ladelfina]

Have you thought about a cheap B/W laser for now? If you're only doing manuscripts that will definitely be more economical in the long run, and you can avoid the inkjet cartridge treadmill. Oooo, I hate that those things are always running out, and then you get the sense that they're still really 1/2 full of ink.

I was reasonably happy with an Epson C64 until I didn't use it for a little while and now even after the local computer store tried cleaning the heads, it doesn't work. Seems like they are made to be disposable.

Next printer for me will be a color laser, but my options here are more limited and cost 2x as much. That, or I have to get a much bigger suitcase!! We also have an HP g85 all-in-one which is not awful considering what it does for the price, but nothing to write home about. There are a couple of offices near us that have them and use them a lot on a daily basis.

 

[sgeeeee]

Macs and PCs were both developed by Nazis. Hitler used both.

 

[bpp]

Macs and PCs were both developed by Nazis. Hitler used both.

My point exactly.

In fact, I think he used them inside an annuity.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Speaking of tired, those market share ramblings are a tired old rant.

Almost as tired as "Dood! Its easier to use and those pc's get icky viruses!"

Ladelfina...many budget machines come with XP Pro, and I must say I have to go give their scoring system a going over, since I cant imagine what the hell would be in XP Pro that isnt in Home that would affect a usability test. Odd.

As far as the cost differential being a wash? Check the prices again, especially now that the platforms have a number of common parts. 30-60% more expensive to buy a mac. In fact, Apple charges almost as much for a 3 year warranty than many windows based machines cost to buy.

 

[ladelfina]

We all know those extended warranties are a rip-off, right?

Not a PC shopper obviously, so I'll take your word about XP Pro. (It's not worth your time or mine to go through the xvs.xp numbers which are admittedly subjective anyway, in the first place; besides, the new matchup will have to be with Vista.. We shall see.)

As a serious question.. what is the point/strategy behind Microsoft's version-proliferation schemes? Besides creating confusion for the user, doesn't it multipy their own headaches? Something about it just doesn't "compute." This is not even taking into consideration the myriad crippled "flavors" that get issued with various machines.. for example, DH has an Acer notebook.. cheap, sure! But it came with XP installed and no system disks, just a "restore". What happens if the machine really s***s the bed? Send it off to Acer and wait a month? Could he install the copy of Windows he has for his tower with the license# of the notebook? I could be wrong but I don't think so. [ooops! I think his e-Machine tower came with the same kind of non-system system..] Bah.

I like having my Apple system disks which are the same for every machine I own that is physically able to run version whatever. Don't tell me I'm on drugs.. that flexibility alone is worth something. Someone on this thread said "I've had no end of problems with backup tools accurately restoring a bootable windows system drive".. See, why would I want to worry about things like that? I haven't tried it yet for this machine but with past Macs I've always just dragged the system folder to any drive it would fit on, and "wa la".. bootable drive.

Hafta reflect that it's kinda funny that a guy with a new(ish) Lexus SUV is lecturing me about hardware cost!!! I spend a lot more time in front of a computer than I do behind the wheel, so I'll pay a little more for certain comforts, real or perceived.. others may feel differently.

And that's.. OK.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Its usually ten bucks to get the set of system disks included with a new system purchase, or they can be ordered for roughly the same amount from the manufacturer. Some manufacturers will just send you one for free if you call and ask.

You may indeed use the disks from another PC with the license from that one, providing they're the same "type", like windows home oem or windows pro retail. Generally unless the hard disk fails completely, you can use the system restore partition to get you going again no matter where you are. Unless you carry all of your system restore disks with you everywhere you go, you'll be hard pressed to do much with a mac laptop if you're on the road and hose it.

Worst case I've heard about on returning the machine to the manufacturer to refresh it was about 3-4 days, two of those being overnight shipping days. Shouldnt take a month. The good news is that EVERYONE has a PC. Someone you know has a system restore disk you could use.

XP is sliced the way it is to suit various markets. Pro has a lot of corporate 'stuff' in it for security and login to a corporate domain service. That makes it worth a bit more value to a corporation. On the other hand, the average home user doesnt need that stuff and wants to pay less.

Media center edition is built on XP Pro with a couple of minor things disabled, and thats whats shipping on many newer machines these days. So the higher Pro scores should apply to that as well.

WRT the comments about the lexus and hardware costs...I dont mind paying extra if i'm GETTING extra. What I dont like is paying extra for purportedly better hardware and a better operating system that arent really any better at all.

For example, the lexus is also highly reliable...unlike many euroluxosedans that have fallen to the bottom of the reliability ratings lately. It holds excellent residual value over time. And my wife never had a really nice new car her whole life. Everyone oughta have one of those.

Somewhere between tangible benefits and feel-good factor, that was a worthy expense.

Helping pay the salary of some dude named Steve in a black suit with a tee shirt on under it telling me how great its gonna be? No thanks...

 

[ladelfina]

Somewhere between tangible benefits and feel-good factor, that was a worthy expense.

Ok! Not knocking your car choice per se.. just that one alloy wheel on the Lexus would probably cost more than my whole Mac system.. a little perspective, please! Now help me decide: 14 y.o. Saab or new little Alfa?

The hairball of not giving $$ to the man in the black T-shirt vs. the hairball of not wanting to give $$ to the richest guy on the planet who rocks back and forth? Ahh, choices, choices...

Have we driven everyone away yet?

 

[John Tuttle]

It could pan out that Microsoft, with the heavier autocratic hand, will impose its yoke and win Round Two in the same way that it won Round One.. no holds barred.

That's a pretty funny comment coming from someone who likes Apple. Steve Jobs is a proponent of closed systems. Think iPod/iTunes for example. Read the articles in the WSJ about the development of the iPhone. The Cingular folks didn't even see the phone until shortly before it was released. Apple is well known for trying to shut down web sites that release details of their products. Apple's autocratic hand is as heavy as anyones.

Something about it just doesn't "compute." This is not even taking into consideration the myriad crippled "flavors" that get issued with various machines.. for example, DH has an Acer notebook.. cheap, sure! But it came with XP installed and no system disks, just a "restore". What happens if the machine really s***s the bed? Send it off to Acer and wait a month? Could he install the copy of Windows he has for his tower with the license# of the notebook? I could be wrong but I don't think so. [ooops! I think his e-Machine tower came with the same kind of non-system system..] Bah.

When I bought my laptop I paid the $10.00 for the disks, although I imagine I could copy everything from the hard drive to CDs if I wanted to save the money. You can also make a CD to restore Windows.

I like having my Apple system disks which are the same for every machine I own that is physically able to run version whatever. Don't tell me I'm on drugs.. that flexibility alone is worth something. Someone on this thread said "I've had no end of problems with backup tools accurately restoring a bootable windows system drive".. See, why would I want to worry about things like that? I haven't tried it yet for this machine but with past Macs I've always just dragged the system folder to any drive it would fit on, and "wa la".. bootable drive.

As I said earlier, I went from bare disk to complete restore in 15 minutes. CFB mentioned that he sometimes has problems getting it to exactly where it was when the system failed. I guess I have lower standards as I lost four hours of emails from my system (they were still archived on Gmail).

I'm guessing that my original statement that no minds are changed by these discussions still holds?

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Of course not.

By the way, the richest man in the world only gets a couple of bucks for the OS licensing. The aging guy in the black suit gets all of the mac purchase profit

Ladelfina...the correct answer is the new little alfa of course! Live your dang life!!! Heck, its either that or build a closet.

 

[scrinch]

Have we driven everyone away yet?

Not yet....


...okay now you have.